required to be absent at the assize town, | other justices, or if their attendance could and was, besides, an inferior officer. not be procured within twelve hours, by the gaoler. Lord Brougham remarked that the Clerk of the Papers in the Queen's Bench, as well as other officers, very inferior in place to the gaoler, administered oaths. A prisoner had no means of drawing any of the visiting justices to the prison to take his oath. The gaoler never could be absent, except when at the assize town, which very seldom happened, for they were generally held in the same town. He would have no objection to insert the words" or the visiting justices." Lord Portman thought it desirable to confine the administration of oaths to the visiting justices. The Earl of Wicklow thought the clause introduced an objectionable novelty, unnecessary for its purpose. Lord Campbell had no objection to allow the governor of the gaol to exercise this function. The governors of gaols were extremely respectable men; he knew many instances in which they had been officers in the Army or Navy, and were above all exception. The Lord Chancellor said, unless the provision of the clause were adopted, the persons whose case it was intended to meet would be left without remedy, for there were no means of procuring the attendance of Masters Extraordinary, who might administer the oaths. Lord Brougham added, that oaths might be administered by gaolers with as much solemnity as in that House. During the judicial proceedings of that House oaths were often administered in a corner, in a whisper, and in a manner not likely to make any serious impression on the minds of the witnesses. The Duke of Richmond suggested that the wording should be amended, so as to make the oath administerable by the visiting or other justices, or if their attendance could not be procured within a certain number of hours, by the gaoler. The Earl of Radnor entirely concurred with his noble and learned Friend as to the lamentable carelessness and levity with which oaths were often administered in the judiciary proceedings of England, and hoped that a remedy would speedily be acquired, now that their Lordships' attention had been called to the subject. Lord Brougham had no objection to the noble Duke's suggestion, and would make the oath administerable by the visiting or Amendments made. Bill read 3a, and passed. TURNPIKE ROADS (SCOTLAND) Act AMENDMENT BILL.] The Duke of Richmond moved the third reading of this Bill. Bill read 3a. Lord Polwarth approved of the prin ciple of the Bill, which went to abolish public houses at toll-gates; but he thought that in thinly populated districts some provision should be made for the wants of travellers. Though he gave his assent to this measure on principle, he still thought some consideration should be had for those who had invested large sums in those toll-houses. He should therefore propose a clause, for the purpose of exempting from this Act all such districts as were thinly inhabited, and two miles from any town, village, or public house. The Duke of Roxburgh should vote for the passing of the Bill as it now stood. It was true that considerable sums of money were laid out on these houses; but the law only recognised a revenue drawn from the tolls, and from no other source. When it was seen how these houses were erected in the most populous districts, and in the suburbs of towns and villages-when it was mentioned what evils were brought upon travellers from this system-and above all, when it was borne in mind how the present houses tended to demoralize the people, he trusted their Lordships would not assent to any qualification whatever of the principle of this measure. The Duke of Montrose said, he had presented a number of petitions against this Bill. He supported the clause of his noble Friend (Lord Polwarth), as he knew that the carrier was frequently obliged to cross moors of an extent of nine or ten miles without meeting with a single public house or place of refreshment. Lord Campbell must oppose this clause, which, if inserted, would render the Bill not worth a farthing. Enormous mischief had been done by allowing these toll houses to be converted into public houses. All the petitions which had been presented proceeded on the principle that large sums had been advanced for making and repair ing the turnpike gates, and that those who better to allow the licensing of the present houses, and no more, except in cases where public houses were more than five miles distant? Lord Beaumont: That would extend the operation of the proviso of the noble Baron (Lord Polwarth). The Duke of Richmond: The case stood thus-certain gentlemen (amongst others himself) chose to expend money on these toll gates, and, to get a return as quickly as possible, the public house system was attempted to be justified. 'Twas nonsense to say a Scotchman could not walk more than two miles without whisky. These houses were open every Sunday, and horrible scenes of riot and drunkenness took place in them. He found he must postpone this Bill to Friday, as he was informed by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, that the Commons might object to it, as containing a money clause. The Bill was one of great importance, and he, for one, must say he could not understand why there should be one law for England, and another for Scotland. Further debate adjourned to Friday. The Duke of Buccleuch entirely approved of the principle of this measure; but thought, at the same time, something was to be said for the petitioners against it. He hoped the day was not far distant when all licenses to toll houses would be withdrawn; but, at the same time, he thought some consideration should be shown to those who had invested large sums of money on the faith of the law. BANKING (SCOTLAND) BILL.] The He could not concur in the sweeping con- Earl of Ripon moved the second reading of demnation pronounced on these houses by this Bill, and said it would be unnecessary the noble Lord (Lord Campbell). He ad- to trouble their Lordships at any length. mitted there was much immorality in them He would, however, give a brief explanaas to drunkenness; but as to the other vice, tion of the grounds of this measure. Their the announcement was new to him, and Lordships were aware that in the course of its commission was certainly not the rule. the last Session two Acts had been passed He thought the proposal as to two miles for the regulation of the banking system of much too near, and to say what were England-one relating to the Bank of "thinly inhabited districts" would be England, the other to Joint Stock Banks found very difficult. There were, how--and he believed it had been admitted ever, many remote parts of the country, the traffic of which was not sufficient to maintain an inn, and where it was most desirable (particularly when snow storms came on) there should be some place of refreshment. He thought more evil was done by the indiscriminate manner of granting licenses than by those toll gate public houses. that the principles upon which these two laws had been founded were wise, just, and consistent with the public interests; and he had reason to think that the anticipations which had been formed of the results of those measures had been realized. These circumstances naturally led to the consideration whether it was not advisable to propose to Parliament the adoption of some measure with a view of regulating the pub-currency-not so much the currency as the banking system-of Scotland; not with the intention of assimilating one with the other, because the system which prevailed in Scotland, and which had existed there many years, had not produced any serious mischief or inconvenience. At the same time it would be a great advantage, as re The Earl of Haddington saggested "four or five miles distant from any lic house," as an Amendment to the clause of the noble Baron (Lord Polwarth). Lord Kinnaird should vote against the clause. The trustees let these houses to the highest bidder, and had, therefore, no control over the holders. Lord Ellenborough: Would it not be ence might arise at particular times if they garded the general banking system of the country, if there was some approach to a rational assimilation, as far as circumstances admitted, between the systems in each part of the country. Upon this principle the present measure was founded, and he would state shortly the nature of the measure. It was proposed not to deprive the banks of Scotland of that privilege which they had not abused, as compared with other parts of the United Kingdom, namely, of issuing notes below 57.; it was not intended to interfere with that; it was not desirable to push an abstract principle to excess; but it was thought expedient to impose something in the shape of a limitation of the amount of issne by the banks in England. The effect of the Bill would be to give a species of monopoly to about nineteen banks of Scotland for the issue of notes. But in order to prevent an excess of issue occurring in that part of the country, it was proposed to limit the issue of notes by these nineteen banks. The principle was this an average statement was taken of the issues of all the banks, collectively as well as separately and individually, for thirteen months, between the 1st of May, 1844, and the 1st of May, 1845; and it was proposed that the average of the total issue in these thirteen months should be the maximum amount of the issues of each and of all the banks, as far as depended upon securities. But it was proposed by this Bill, in order to enable the Scotch bankers to give still further accommodation, should it be necessary, to allow them, in addition to issue any amount of notes they pleased in proportion to the quantity of coin which, within a period of four consecutive weeks, might be in the coffers of each bank. Each bank, therefore, could not only issue notes to the amount of its average paper issue for the year which the Bill took as the standard of future issues, but might also make an additional issue of notes in proportion to the quantity of bullion in its possession at a given period. He might be allowed to explain to their Lordships the practical effect of this measure upon the amount of currency in Scotland. It appeared that the average circulation in notes of Scotch banks might be taken at 3,063,000l., and that would be the maxi-gold in the coffers of the banks being remum amount to which they could continue to issue upon securities; but there was no doubt that considerable inconveni It duced to almost nothing. It was considered by the Government most desirable that the banking establishments of Scot land should, like those of England, be placed on the safest footing practicable, and it was with this view and on this principle that the present Bill had been proposed, and was now recommended to their Lordships' consideration. There were several clauses providing for the due execution of the Act, with which he would not then trouble their Lordships, as the period for considering them would be when the Bill was in Committee. He had stated, he hoped, with sufficient explicitness the grounds on which he proposed the measure, and he would now move that it be read a second time. mittee of their Lordships' House was appointed to inquire into the practice of issuing 1. notes in Scotland, and that Committee having investigated and considered the whole system of banking in Scotland, bore in their Report the strongest testimony in its favour. Subsequent Committees had also deprecated all legislative interference with that system. The Earl of Ripon: That was only in reference to the issue of 17. notes. The Earl of Radnor: That was the subject of the inquiry; but the recommendation of the Committee referred to the system generally. The Bill gave no additional security to the public; on the contrary, if it had any effect at all, it would be to tempt the banks to make imprudent issues; for the gold, which the noble Earl admitted they now thought it necessary to keep in their coffers, in amount equal to one-fifth of their whole paper circulation, they would by this Bill be en The Question having been put, The Earl of Radnor thought the Bill a most unnecessary and gratuitous interference with the Banks of Scotland. Let well enough alone,' was a maxim as applicable to public as to private matters; and as the system of banking in Scotland had gone on in the most satisfactory manner, and given perfect satisfaction and se-couraged to make the basis of further issues. curity to the public, he did not see why it should be interfered with. The framers of the Bill ought to have stated the grounds upon which it had been brought forward, and explained the grievance it was intended to remedy. No application had ever been made, either by the banks themselves, or by the people of Scotland, for any such measure; and the proposed interference was looked upon generally as most annoying and uncalled for. It was true, the measure had not met with so much opposition in the other House as had been anticipated; but the reason of that was, that the interference was found to be not of so bad a character as it was reported it would be. The interference was thought by many to effect so little change in the working of the system as to be scarcely worth opposing. But why interfere at all with a system of which no one complained, and which had received the highest testimony in its favour? There had been no extraordinary cases of failure to justify such a step. On the contrary, the Scotch banks had been at all times remarkable for their stability. In 1842 there had been two failures, it was true; but at those periods, when the whole of the United Kingdom was suffering from pecuniary difficulties, the Scotch banks had remained firm, and no cases of failure had occurred. From the year 1808 to 1820, 113 banks had failed in England, but not one in Scotland. In 1826, a Com Third VOL. LXXXI. {Series} If the banks were now so prudent, as it was admitted they were, to keep this large amount of gold by them to meet any sudden demand, why interfere at all, especially when the effect of that interference would naturally be to induce them to depart from that prudent line which they had of themselves adopted? What did the Government fear? Did they suppose the paper circulation of Scotland, if left unchecked, would become too large? Why, it had been proved before a Committee of the House of Commons, that, notwithstanding the population, the commerce, and the wealth of this country, had gone on increasing to a great extent, the paper currency had diminished, and was still diminishing. The increase in the number of the branch banks gave such great facilities for making deposits, that money was not kept in hand as it used to be, and the result was, that the paper currency had decreased. Another objection to the measure was, that its tendency was to encourage monopoly. In the first place, it gave to each bank a monopoly for its own purposes, and as no new bank was to be established, the system would become in the end one of monopoly; and surely this was not the time to establish monopoly. Another result of the measure would be, that the attempt would be made to get rid of notes altogether and substitute gold. The noble Earl concluded by moving, as an 2 L Amendment, that the Bill be read a se- his (the Earl of Dalhousie's) recollection cond time that day three months. there had been periods of extreme difficulty amongst the banks in Scotland; and if, in general, the difficulties at times of pecuniary pressure were not so great in Scotland as in England, the reason was that the Scotch banks had the opportunity of coming upon the Bank of England, and thereby increasing the force of the demand for gold upon it. It was with the view of enabling each part of the Empire to meet its own difficulties that the measure was brought forward. He denied that there was any reason for saying that the Bill would operate as a temptation to the Scotch banks to make improvident issues. All the Bill did in this Lord Kinnaird also protested against any legislative interference with the existing system of banking in Scotland. He objected to the measure as tending to limit the circulation of Scotland. In fact, the noble Earl himself admitted that it would do so to the extent of 400,0007. The limit, exclusive of the issues on bullion, was 3,063,000%.; but the noble Earl had shown that in the four weeks ending December 7, the total circulation was between 3,400,000l. and 3,500,000l., and this increased circulation of notes during certain periods of the year was most beneficial to the highland and rural districts. He feared that this slight inter-respect was to enable them to increase ference (slight it was admitted to be) would, by limiting the circulation to that extent, be most injurious to the country. He could see no grounds for the introduction of this measure whatever, and could only suppose that it had been brought forward because, as it was found necessary to interfere in some degree with the Irish banks, it was thought by the Government that it might be as well to connect the Scotch banking system with the Irish measure. their issues on the one-fifth of gold, in proportion to their circulation, or whatever it might be which it was said they usually kept on hand, and which they might now made the basis of further issues. The Earl of Radnor: The banks now thought it prudent to hold the one-fifth of gold in reserve; but under the Bill, if they wished to increase their circulation, they might do so, to the full extent of that amount, without any additional se On Question, that "now" stand part of the Motion; Resolved in the Affirmative. Bill read 2. House adjourned. The following Protest against the Second Reading of the Banking (Scotland) Bill was entered on the Journals. "I. Because this Bill, proceeding on the assumption and stating in the preamble that it is expedient to regulate the issue of bank notes that expediency, neither that the issue has in Scotland, alleges no ground or reason for heretofore been excessive, nor that it has been made on inadequate security, nor that it has been attended with loss or inconvenience to the people of Scotland, nor that the people of Scotland complain of it or desire such regula The Earl of Dalhousie thought the ab-curity whatever. sence of the great majority of noble Lords connected with Scotland, was of itself a proof that the measure was not considered calculated to operate injuriously on the country. The noble Earl had stated that the system of banking in Scotland worked well, that it gave sufficient accommodation, and at the same time sufficient security to the public, and that the people were attached to it. The opinion which the Government entertained of that system was best shown by the measure itself, which neither interfered with the practice of issuing the 17. notes, nor with the mode of conducting the business of the several banks, while the averages had been taken upon the twelve months, including those periods during which the issues had been the greatest, without requiring any security. The banks might, after the passing of this Bill, continue to issue up to the full amount of their average issues without security; all that was required was that any excess should be based upon gold or silver in hand. The noble Earl had spoken as though there was no doubt at any time of the solvency and sufficiency of the system: but within tion. "II. Because I hold it inexpedient to regulate such issue, inasmuch as, "1. It is an unnecessary legislative interference with private concerns, and such interference is contrary to all sound principle of legislation. "2. It will in this case be productive of inconvenience both to the bankers, whose concerns it is intended to regulate, and to the people in general; and, |