1343 Railway Clauses Consolidation {LORDS} Resolved in the Affirmative: Bill read | 3. accordingly and passed. The following Protest against the Third Reading of the Banking (Scotland) Bill was entered on the Journals. "I. Because I can see no possible benefit likely to result from this Bill, and none has been stated in debate, except in the event of such an emergency as has never yet occurred, which, in my opinion, it is rather calculated to occasion, and which it supplies no new means of meeting. The Duke of Buccleuch said, that his noble Friend (the Earl of Lincoln) would have introduced the measure referred to by him for the purpose of making some sanatory regulations in large cities and towns, had not the great pressure of other business interfered and prevented him. The Marquess of Normanby observed, that the noble Duke's statement proved the necessity that existed for some fresh arrangement being made in regard to the measures deemed necessary to be carried "II. Because it will at once check, and ulti-through Parliament by the Government. mately put an end to, that competition which Had the Sanatory Bill been introduced has heretofore existed amongst the banks of in that House early in the Session, it Scotland, and which has rendered banking would now have been ready for the proremarkable for cheapness, efficiency, and safety, ceedings in the Lower House. and highly beneficial to all the interests in that country. "III. Because, though I consider the evils hence resulting quite certain, they will not be considered so palpable as to invite or suggest a repeal of this law. They will not exhibit themselves by any calamity, or produce any immediate distress, but they will silently prevent that advance to prosperity which might otherwise have been attained. If similar provisions had been enacted twenty years ago, it is evident that Scotland would not have en joyed the advantages which are universally admitted to have resulted from its banking system; but no one would have known that but for those enactments it would have been more prosperous; in like manner, hereafter, as no one will be able to say what would have been the state of the country if this Bill had not passed, so no one will be able to trace the amount of evil which it will have produced, or of good which it will have prevented. "For the first reason, "ROSEBERY." CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.] The Lord Chancellor moved the Third Reading of this Bill. Lord Cottenham objected to some of its details, on the ground that they gave to the Commissioners more power than the Lord Chancellor had ever possessed. He approved altogether of the object of the Bill; but he wholly disapproved of its machinery. Bill read 3; Amendments made; Bill passed. The Marquess of Normanby presented a petition from the Medical Practitioners of the Metropolis, praying for the adoption of Sanatory Regulations in populous Districts. The noble Marquess complained that the Government had not fulfilled the pledge that had been given respecting the introduction of some measure of this description. Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Table. RAILWAYS.] Lord Campbell asked the noble Earl at the head of the Board of Trade whether, according to the existing law, the practice of one railway company buying up other projected railways could be prevented; and if not, whether it was the intention of Government to introduce any measure to put a stop to that practice? The Earl of Dalhousie said, that no doubt could be entertained of the fact that projected lines of railway were bought up by existing companies. The advantages cf amalgamation were sometimes very great; and sometimes the transaction was detrimental to the public interest. The Legislature, however, closely investigated all such transactions when the Bills came before the Houses of Parliament. As to the state of the existing law, the Board of Trade certainly had the power, under the Act of 1844, to interfere in such transac tions in any case in which they thought that the interests of the public would be affected injuriously. He had submitted the case to the Law Officers of the Crown, whose opinion was, that such purchases were not legal. Notices were accordingly given to the railway companies, who would have to meet the case against them. He believed the law was sufficient to reach them; but if not, the Government would make it a duty to put the law into such a state as to stop the abuses complained of. RAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION (SCOTLAND) BILL (No. 2).] The Earl of Dalhousie informed their Lordships that in the conference which their Lord 1345 Railway Clauses Consolidation {JUNE 30} (Scotland) Bill (No. 2). 1346 ships' House had with the Commons in would account for it. It was through an respect of the clause granting compensa-error in the House that the Bill was tion in the Railway Clauses Consolidation passed with that clause. It was only (Scotland) Bill, the latter had rejected introduced at the third reading, and it was that clause. But as the Bill was of so never printed; so that the House of Commuch importance to the public, he should mons was taken by surprise, and on those not advise their Lordships to reject it for grounds they afterwards opposed it. He that reason, especially as there was still a agreed that the effect of the rejection of power of obtaining compensation by the this clause would be to throw a heavy parties who should be injured. The noble debt upon the landlords in Scotland; but, Marquess concluded by moving that their then, it ought to be remembered that the Lordships should not insist on those making of these roads had very considerAmendments in the Bill which had been ably benefited their estates, which had disagreed to by the Commons' House of risen in value in consequence. Then, he Parliament. could not understand why the holders of the land ought to be protected, when no protection was proposed to be afforded to widows and others, who had lent small sums of money, being probably all they had, on the faith of the Acts which were already passed. He could not conceive any difference in principle between the two cases. In The Duke of Richmond said, that the Bill had originally come up from the Commons with the clauses objected to inserted, and their Lordships had sanctioned its introduction with these clauses. The Bill, however, was subsequently withdrawn, and a new measure introduced without them. He was of opinion that the adoption of such a course was an interference with The Duke of Montrose would have the privileges of their Lordships' House; supposed that the noble Lord who had for the clauses struck out might be the very just sat down was an Englishman and not ground of their assent to the measure. a Scotchman; for he had shown that he The noble Duke then complained that the was ignorant of the distinction in the Turnpike Trusts (Scotland) Bill had not Scotch cases to which the noble Duke received that discussion it ought to have (Richmond) had before adverted. received in the House of Commons. The England persons who lent their money to effect of it would be, that if the Bill pass- a turnpike trust came upon the county; ed, the man who had lent money on the but in Scotland the trustees were persecurity of the tolls would be cheated.sonally bound to those from whom they There was a difference in this respect between England and Scotland. Here the noble Duke quoted a clause in the Scotch Turnpike Act, authorizing landholders to borrow money on the security of their estates, and binding their heirs of entail. This was not the case with the turnpike trusts of England; and, therefore, he thought a distinction ought to be made in the Railway Bills of the two countries. He regretted the public inconvenience which would result if this Bill were thrown out; but, at the same time, he thought that their Lordships ought to protect and guard the interests of those who, on the faith of the Act of Parliament, had lent their money on the road trusts. If they agreed to this proposition of the Commons, it would be drawn into a precedent, which which might hereafter be found to be extremely dangerous. borrowed money; and therefore compen- Lord Campbell agreed with the view taken by the noble Duke. The parties had agreed to the clause, and it was founded in justice. At the same time, if they agreed not to insert the clause, they would have it in their power to do substantial justice, as it might be inserted in each particular Bill which came before their Lordships. The Earl of Dalhousie said, that if they rejected the clause the Bill would be lost, and they would be as far as ever from Lord Kinnaird agreed with the noble getting compensation to the parties reDuke that the conduct of the Commons ferred to. The proper course would be, with regard to this clause was extraor-not to lose an important Bill by rejecting dinary; but he thought a few words this clause, but to insert it, as the noble VOL LXXXI. {S} Third 2 X and learned Lord had suggested, in each particular Bill. He hoped, therefore, the noble Duke would not persist in his Motion. The Duke of Richmond had made no Motion, he had only thrown out a suggestion, which he would not press against the wish of their Lordships. Lord Brougham thought it was much. better not to insert this clause in the general Act. It would be much better in each particular Railway Bill. It was then moved not to insist on the said Amendment. On Question: Resolved in the Affirmative. House adjourned. Barrhead, and Neilston Direct Railway; London and Brighton Railway (Wandsworth Branch); Black Sluice Drainage and Navigation: St. Matthew, Bethnal Green, 3o. and passed :-Wear Valley Railway; Middlesbro' and Redcar Railway; Cockermouth and Workington Railway; Edinburgh and Northern Railway (No. 2); Preston and Wyre Railway Branches; Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Railway; Scottish Midland Junction Railway; Shepley Lane Head and Barnsley Road. several places, for Postponement of Physic and Surgery Bill.-By Mr. Colquhoun, Mr. Hastie, and Mr. F. Maule, from several places, for Alteration of Poor Law Amendment (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. Hawes, and Mr. Liddell, from several places, for Diminishing Number of Public Houses. By Mr. Forman, from Bridgewater, for Abolition of Punishment of Death.-By Sir G. Clerk, from Devonport, and East Stonehouse, for Inquiry (Royal College of Surgeons).-By Mr. Entwisle, from Inhabitants of Withington, for Alteration of Law relating to the Sale of Beer.By Mr. J. Wortley, from Presbytery of Dunooon, for Ameliorating the Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).-By Mr. Mackinnon, from Inhabitants of Birmingham, in favour of the Smoke Prohibition Bill. DREDGING FOR OYSTERS.] Sir Charles Lemon asked the Vice-President of the Board of Trade whether it was the intention of the Government to bring forward, with a view to its enactment in the present Session, a Bill to prevent excessive dredg ing for oysters during the breeding season, by which practice, as had been abundantly proved, the oyster beds were often seriously injured, and might be entirely destroyed? Sir G. Clerk said, it was not the intention of the Government to bring in any Bill on the subject at present. It was a matter of considerable importance, affecting the present and future supply of oysters, and it was well known that the practice which the hon. Baronet complained of prevailed. It was a question, however, whether the preventing the removal of oysters to other beds, where they increased in size, would not be prejudicial to the trade. On the whole, it was a subject worthy the consideration of the Government; and the hon. Baronet might be sure that attention PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. M. O'Connell, from Poor would be given to it. Law Guardians of Scariff Union, for Repeal of Union with England.-By Mr. Shaw, from Drung, for Encouragement to Schools in connexion with Church Edu cation Society.-By Mr. Fox Maule, from Perth, and Lord's Day.-By Mr. J. O'Connell, from Clogher, in favour of Roman Catholic Relief Bill.-By Mr. Lockhart, several other places, for Better Observance of the and Mr. Smollett, from Glasgow, and Dunblane, against Universities (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. Hume, Mr. Fox Maule, and W. Morrison, from several places, in favour of Universities (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. O'Connell, from Bankers and others of Leeds, for Enforcing Observance of Treaty with Buenos Ayres.-By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Factory Workers of Messrs. Cowper, Maitland, and Co., St. Rollox, Glasgow, in favour of Arrestment of Wages (Scotland) Bill.-By Mr. S. O'Brien, and Mr. J. O'Connell, from Ballylaneen, and a great number of other places, against Colleges (Ireland) Bill.-By Mr. T. Duncombe, and Mr. Smollett, from Huddersfield, and se AGRARIAN OUTRAGES (IRELAND.)] Sir James Graham having moved the Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee on the Colleges (Ireland) Bill, Sir E. Hayes rose, pursuant to notice, to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what course the Government intended to pursue with reference to the system of outrage, intimidation, and mur. der now prevailing in some of the counties in Ireland. He wished to know whether the Government were under a conviction that the powers which the Executive now Factories.—By Mr. Vernon, from Merchants and Traders possessed were sufficient to put down the of Nottingham, for Repeal or Alteration of Insolvent system of which he complained, and which Debtors Act. From the Proprietors of Gateshead Fell had been allowed to go on for a considerLunatic Asylum, against Lunatic Asylums and Pauperable time in a large portion of that counLunatics Bill.-By Mr. Bradshaw, and Mr. F. Maule, veral other places, in favour of the Ten Hours System in from several places, against Parochial Settlement Bill. try, creating fear, dismay, and, he might alBy Mr. T. Duncombe, from David Peat, of Glasgow, for most add, despair in the hearts of the peaceRedress. By Mr. Broadwood, Mr. J. O'Connell, and Mr.able inhabitants. If any power existed which had not been exercised, he should Osborne, from several places, for Alteration of Physic and which he occupied in order to inculcate Arian doctrines. like to know what it was. He should also be glad to know whether, if the existing powers of the Executive were insufficient, the Government were prepared to ask for such further powers as would strengthen their hands to meet the present exigency, which he was happy to say did not arise either from political or religious differences? Mr. B. Osborne thought it would be as well, before the right hon. Gentleman answered the question which had just been put to him, for the hon. Gentleman to state the particular parts of Ireland to which he referred. It would otherwise be unfair that such a statement should go forth to the public. Sir E. Hayes said, that he of course alluded to those parts of Ireland in which it was well known that frightful scenes had lately been enacted. Sir J. Graham said, the Government had viewed with the deepest anxiety and regret the spirit of insubordination and crime which existed in certain portions of Ireland-in Leitrim, Cavan, and adjacent counties. Every effort had been made, and would continue to be made, by the Government, according to law, to repress those outrages. A large increase to the military and police force had already been made, and placed at the disposal of the local authorities, in aid of the civil power. His hon. Friend was correct in stating that neither politics nor religion had had anything to do with this unhappy state of affairs. On the contrary, he had been assured that on Wednesday next, in the county of Cavan, there would be a county meeting of the laity and clergy, without distinction of political parties or religious sects, for the purpose of considering the best means to be adopted for repressing the outrages complained of according to law. He hoped that every effort would be made to put an end to this unhappy state of affairs. As yet, he did not despair that the existing law, aided by the united effort to which he had referred, would be sufficient for checking the evil. It was the resolution of the Government to exhaust every means now in their power for obtaining that end; and at present he was not prepared to announce any other intention on the part of the Government. Mr. Ross wished to take that opportunity of denying the truth of a statement which had been made, to the effect that the Professor of Greck in the Belfast Institution had taken advantage of the position COLLEGES (IRELAND).] Order of the Day read. On the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. W. Smith O'Brien said, if he had thought there would have been any chance of success, he should have been prepared to submit a series of Resolutions before the Speaker left the chair; but he was so convinced that his labour would have been in vain, that he should best consult the convenience of the House by taking that opportunity of stating generally his objection to the Bill then under consideration. Ireland had presented a picture of misery which had no parallel in this or any other country, and yet another Session was permitted to pass without any effort for improving the material condition of the Irish people. He was not on that account, however, disposed to overlook the importance of providing for their mental improvement. He tendered the Government his sincere thanks for the progress which they had already made in this matter; but when it was said that 400,000 children had been provided with the means of education by the national schools, it must be remembered that there were from 1,020,000 to 1,050,000 who ought to be at school. With reference to the proposed Bill, his great complaint was, that there was no provision for religious education; and the Irish were essentially a religious people. A memorial from the Catholic prelates stated that they thought there ought to be a chaplain, with a suitable salary, in each of the Colleges, who should be recommended by the Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese, and should be removable by him. The Government were afraid to concede this point, inasmuch as they would have to encounter the outcry of the million and a half who had petitioned against Maynooth. The prelates also demanded for all Roman Catholic students protection from interference with their religious opinions; and it was natural that they should make such a demand, as there was not one Roman Catholic connected with any superior department of the Government in Ireland. The proportion of Catholics in the districts where the Colleges were to be established, as compared with Protestants, was nearly ten to one. The Roman Catholic prelates demanded that Roman Catholic tutors should be provided for instruction in history, logic, metaphysics, moral philosophy, geology, and anatomy. History, it was well known, was generally tinged with the views of those who wrote it. The whole system of moral philosophy was constructed under the Roman Catholic system upon entirely a different basis, and it was therefore not unnatural that the Roman Catholic hierarchy should include moral philosophy. As to anatomy and geology, he did not see what difference should arise between Catholics and Protestants; but at the same time it was quite right that both should be secured from infidel views; and therefore he was prepared to give his full support to the memorial of the Catholic prelates. He did not mean to attribute improper motives to the Government; but if the measure had been framed expressly for party purposes, it could not have been more effectually moulded for such an object than it was. Could there be a doubt but that when a vacancy might occur in any of the professorships of these Colleges, the Government of the day would find a large number of its supporters in Parliament pressing upon it the claim of some candidate for the vacancy, who would perhaps be found to be more distinguished for his political tone, than for scientific or literary acquirements? The right hon. Baronet told them, indeed, that he reserved to Parliament the power of considering the question of the appointment of professors at the end of three years. That was said to be a great concession; but it was obvious that the Parliament had the same power in the matter in 1845 as it would have in 1848; but as the Bill provided that if Parliament failed to provide any mode of appointment to the professorships, the appointments would remain with the Government, it was only necessary for the Government not to bring forward any measure on the subject to ensure the continuance of the power in their own hands. The question of the best mode of appointing the professors in the first instance, was a subject of discussion; but of all the various modes suggested, that contained in the Bill was, he thought, decidedly the worst. The course which he would wish to recommend was, that a number of eminent men-a majority of whom, he would say, ought to be Roman Catholics-should be named in the Bill as a board, empowered to recommend to the Government the persons who ought to be appointed to the professorships. He confessed he was himself favourable to the principle of open competition, as being essentially necessary to in sure proper appointments. But with respect to future appointments, the suggestion of Dr. Brice, of Belfast, a gentleman of great experience and ability, ought not, he thought, to be lost sight of. It was, that the Senatus Academicus, subject to such control as would be necessary to prevent religious difficulties from arising, should have the power of recommending, after public examination, those who should be appointed to the professorships. The right hon. Baronet held out some promises that visitors would be appointed to the Colleges, who would give satisfaction to the majority of the people of Ireland; but if such were the intention of Government, he could not understand why the visitors, for the functionaries who would ex-officio be visitors, should not be named in the Bill. Supposing, for instance, it were desirable that the Roman Catholic and Protestant archbishops of Dublin should be two of the visitors, why not insert a provision to that effect in the Bill? Unless they did so, there would be no security hereafter that the scruples of the people would be respected in this particular. Again, they had a promise that these Colleges would be constituted into a University; but why should not the framework of such University be provided in the Bill? He could not leave that portion of the subject without taking the opportunity of expressing his opinion, that there ought to be a measure brought forward by Her Majesty's Government for opening the fellowships and scholarships of Trinity College to Roman Catholics. He could not understand why the Roman Catholic gentry and merchants of Dublin should not have the same opportunity of giving a university education to their sons as their Protestant fellow citizens. The Roman Catholics did not desire to invade the quarter of the Dublin University which was required for providing ministers for the Established Church in Ireland. They were quite content that that portion of the College should be maintained as at present; but they, at the same time, demanded that the remaining fellowships should be open to them in common with persons of other persuasions. A proposition had been made as an alternative, in case the Legislature declined interfering with the existing fellowships, namely, that an endowment should be provided in Trinity College, by special grant, for founding new fellowships, which should be open to Roman Catholics as well as to individuals of other religious |