nected, minister after minister who were naturally kindly affectioned to the poor-in their evidence, though they proceeded from po'nt to point to show how wretched their paupers were, when asked if there ought to be a compulsory assessment, had declined to answer almost universally. "You do not know (said they) the character of the Highlander; you don't know his kindness of heart and his reliance on his neighbour; nor how his spirit of independence sets him against compulsory relief, and makes him unwilling to see the poor provided for by a compulsory assessment." That was the only hibited either of them from gaining a settlement there? He thought it was an inhospitable and an ill-omened clause; and he was of opinion that if it was not altered, it would bring the Government into trouble, not only with the Irish, but the Scotch friends of the measure. Well, then, Mr. Campbell said, that the usual food of the paupers was porridge, potatoes, milk, and a little mutton now and then, and fish. In fact, however, the poor of that country were nearly as well off as the shepherds themselves, and the poor were not felt as a burden to anybody. That constituted the beauty of the system. The poor were not felt as a burden on any-answer that could be got; it might not be body. But the truth of the case was, and a satisfactory answer, but it was the only if they referred, one by one, to the cases answer that could be got. laid down in the Appendix to the Report, Sir J. Graham said, he was so much they would find, that though the amount gratified that the hon. and learned Genof relief given was very small, that did tleman (Mr. Dundas) had taken that not show that the paupers were quite in a part in the debate which his talents and state of destitution. His hon. Friend said, eloquence fitted him to take prominently, there had been improvement in Suther- that they must rejoice in any circumlandshire. 66 Why, how can that be," stance which could stimulate him to adsaid the hon. Member for Rochdale, dress the House; and he would, therefore, "when the population has not increased, be the last person to complain that the and that in Kildonan, for instance, the hon. and learned Gentleman had entered population was 1,574 in 1811, and only so much more into the discussion than he 257 in 1831, and had therefore been re- should perhaps have otherwise thought duced from thousands to hundreds ?" But desirable. The hon. Member for Winif the hon. Member had read on in the chester said, that there appeared to be evidence, he would have found, that "the some reluctance to defend the Bill; but great bulk of that population is settled the principle of it had been so much disdown in the adjoining parish of Loth, in cussed on the second reading, that he the valley lower down, chiefly on the did not think it necessary to discuss it on coast." But then it was said, there was the present occasion; and he was rather no return from the capital that had been surprised that the hon. Gentleman him laid out. It was true that there had not self should have complained of the abbeen much return from the capital laid sence of discussion, when he said, that out there; but that was not an argument all he thought necessary, was a short Act for the hon. Member's purpose. It was to give effect to the law already existing often the case that capital laid out bene- in Scotland. He (Sir J. Graham) adficially to those among whom it was in-mitted that the present law of Scotland vested, did not yield returns to the capi- was an excellent one. Cadit questio, talists at once; but they found it was then, as to the principle: the matter retrue in the end, that "cast your bread solved itself into a question of detail. upon the waters and it shall be found They had introduced new machinery by after many days;" and it might always be the Bill, to give effect to the law already depended upon, that if capital was laid in existence. Let them go into Commitout among a people in a right spirit, the tee to discuss the details. The hon. and increase would be reaped sooner or later. learned Gentleman said, that there was The hon. and learned Gentleman who had some hardship in compelling the people. spoken last complained of one point in of Scotland to be inhospitable. He lived the Bill, viz., the want of a compulsory on the English side of the border; and it assessment, and he had asked, why not was most true that the law of England make the people do their duty? Now, it made it most difficult for a Scotchman to was very remarkable that in the county acquire a settlement, whereas, by a three with which he (Mr. Dundas) was con-years' industrial residence the Englishman VOL. LXXXI. Third Series 3 B He Johnstone, H. Peel, rt. hn. Sir R. acquired a settlement in Scotland. He | Hutt, W. The House divided on the Question, that the words "proposed to be left out" stand part of the Question:-Ayes 76; Noes 33; Majority 43. Acton, Col. List of the AYES. Arbuthnott, hon, II. Arkwright, G. Baillie, Col. Baillie, H. J. Baird, W. Balfour, J. M. Barkly, H. Bentinck, Lord G. Boldero, H. G. Borthwick, P. Bowles, Adm. Darby, G. Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Herbert, rt. hn. S. Hope, Sir J. Hope, hon. C. Scott, hon. F. Stuart, Lord J. Sutton, hon. H. M. Trench, Sir F. W. Vernon, G, H. TELLERS. Baring, H. List of the Nors. Baine, W. Ferguson, Sir R. A. Forster, M. Johnson, Gen. Layard, Capt. Redington, T. N. TELLERS. Oswald, J. House in Committee, Mr. E. Ellice, junr., said, that in the English Act he found that medical aid made a most necessary part of the relief given to the poor; and it would be a perfect mockery of relief, if the same thing were not done with regard to this Bill, He should therefore move, as an Amendment, that the following words be inserted at the end of the 1st Clause :— "Aud the words 'relief,' 'support,' and 'maintenance,' shall be held to include necessary medical aid." The Lord Advocate thought the 6th Clause would provide for all that was As he unrequisite as to medical relief. derstood the proposition of the hon, Gentleman, it would be obligatory on the parishes to give medical relief; but that would be impossible, unless they had a paid medical officer. Mr. E. Ellice wished it to be remembered, that the suggestion which he made Howard, hn. E. G. G. was founded upon the Report of the Hope, G. W. Commissioners. His object was, that the words "relief and maintenance" should include medical relief. List of the NOES. Mr. F. Maule considered it to be phy. sically impossible that a medical man could successfully undertake the care of a district thirty miles in extent. The country should certainly be divided into districts; but the space which a medical man could take under his charge in one part of the country might be much greater than he could venture upon in another. Sir R. Peel said, nothing was more important than that medical relief should be given in every practicable case; but he entertained a strong objection to giving to the people of Scotland a positive assurance that the poor should at all times be supplied with medical relief. He thought they should be cautious how they excited expectations which could not be realized. Everything that was possible ought to be done; but fallacious hopes should not be raised. Sir J. Graham suggested, that the hon. Member opposite might propose some substantive addition to the 66th Clause, in preference to altering the interpretation clause. Mr. Gladstone wished for a more authoritative statement of the existing law of Scotland, as regarded the relief of the poor, than they had yet heard. He should be glad to know whether general relief included medical relief? Acton, Col. Duncan, Visct. Gaskell, J. Milnes Gore, M. Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Johnstone, H. Loch, J. Lockhart, W. M'Neill, D. Mackenzie, T. M'Taggart, Sir J. Maule, rt. hon. F. Clauses 2 and 3. On Clause 18, Mr. F. Maule moved as an Amend. ment The Lord Advocate had no objection to allow the boards to take the question And the Kirk Session of each parish shall "That the words, commencing line 37, of medical relief into consideration when-nominate not exceeding four members of such ever they were called on by a parish so Kirk Session to be members of the parochial to do. board,' be omitted." INDEX ΤΟ HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES, VOLUME LXXXI. BEING THE FIFTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1845. EXPLANATION OF THE ABBREVIATIONS. 1R. 2R. 3R. First, Second, or Third Reading-Amend., Amendment.-Res., Resolution.-Com. It has seemed better, instead of incumbering this Index with a reference to Private Bills, upon which Accidents, Death by, Compensation, 1. Rep. Agrarian Outrages (Ireland), c. 1348 203; 3R.* 632; c. 1R.* 1152 ACLAND, Sir T. D. (Devonshire, N.) Oxford and Rugby Railway, Rep. 1004 ACLAND, Mr. (Somersetshire, W.) Adjournment, l. 126 ANSON, Hon. Colonel G. (Staffordshire, S.) |