their Lord the Pope; and it is no more sider well the circumstances under which than due to them to say, that vain will this Bill is introduced. An avowal of be the endeavour to bribe them to become weakness had been made by Sir R. Peel; the friends of any Government not in before his acceptance of office he had avowed as well as practical subjection to foretold that Ireland would be his diffithe See of Rome. The obligations ac- culty. Such was his prophecy; and the cepted by a Roman Catholic bishop at declaration tended, along with other things, his consecration might be a warning to to produce its own fulfilment. Neverthethe Government of this fact; while the less, when he came into office, he found persecuting spirit of the head of that the state of Ireland comparatively tranChurch, against all who dare to separate quil, and its condition improving. The from it, must justify the strongest oppo- noble Marquess opposite appears to think sition to this, or to any other measure of that I am paying a compliment to his the like tendency, by the Protestants of Government. He is mistaken; I attrithe Empire. What has been stated of bute the favourable state of things at that the occurrences at Achill and Dingle, time to the fact that all parties in Ireland particularly the impotency of the Govern- had been for some time looking forward ment to afford to the converts at the to the accession to office of Her Majesty's latter place that protection from persecu- present Ministers, with those feelings of tion which they prayed at the hands of confidence which their conduct, while in the Lord Lieutenant, should, I think, Opposition, so well justified. Soon, howmake your Lordships pause before you ever, confidence began to be shaken; the assent to a measure calculated so much Conservatives began to doubt the sinto strengthen the hands of a Church so cerity of Ministers; and the weakness intolerant-so beyond the power of the and incapacity of the Home Office did Government to control. You are desirous not escape the notice of the quicksighted to ameliorate the state of Ireland, to im- leader of the Repeal movement. Presently prove the social condition of the people, commenced the systematic agitation for and to act towards them in the spirit of the Repeal of the Union; and for several the utmost liberality: once more let me months, while the Government-notwithentreat your Lordships to examine well standing repeated warnings and remonwhether the measure before you is really strances-looked on in apparent uncona boon to Ireland — whether it is not cern, or rather in a state of mute astonishrather a surrender to Rome. Many cir- ment, the lives and properties of the well cumstances might account for the intense disposed were periled by a succession of anxiety of Her Majesty's Ministers to monster meetings of tens of thousands in press this Bill through Parliament, which a state of unexampled excitement, ready might be the very things to render it im- to act at the bidding of one man, and portant that your Lordships should not only by that one man restrained from hastily assent to it. I quite admit that acts of violence and open rebellion. I the present great prosperity of the Em- should, however, remark, that the noble. pire, which is so much owing to the ability, Duke, as Commander in Chief, well pervigour, and foresight of the Government, formed his duty; for he took the necesis a strong claim upon your confidence; sary steps to preserve a military occupaand most desirous am I, whenever it is tion of the country. At last, the Governpossible, to find myself among their sup- ment was aroused-the meeting that was porters; but no such ability or foresight to have taken place at Clontarf was put a can be said to have characterized their stop to by Proclamation-and it is but administration of affairs in Ireland; nei-justice to the Repeal leaders to say, that ther does the past afford any such grounds they did all in their power to secure obeof confidence in their wisdom and consist-dience to the Proclamation, and to preency in dealing with what may be called "Catholic questions," as to justify a blind acquiescence in their measures, or any hope, founded upon their mere assurance, that good can result from the policy they now recommend. It behoves you, my Lords, not only to examine carefully into its nature and tendency, but also to con vent the bloodshed that must otherwise have ensued. It then became apparent that one timely act of vigour might have prevented these meetings from taking place at all; for all were of the same character, alike objectionable. The mischief, however, had been done; the people had been organized-their discipline in respect of obedience to leaders was perfect-they | clergy to a papal rescript communicated knew themselves to be individually brave- to them throughthe Roman Catholic Prithey had been taught to believe themselves mate of Ireland. From that moment, both collectively irresistible, and to despise the prelates and clergy ceased to take, openly, Government of the country. Then fol- that lead in the Repeal agitation in which lowed that State prosecution, with the they had been before so conspicuous; results of which your Lordships are well then it was that this measure for the peracquainted. I give the Government full manent and unconditional endowment of credit for their motives in having insti- Maynooth was submitted to the heads of tuted it; they were anxious to vindicate the Roman Catholic Church; and we are and uphold the common law of the coun- authoritatively informed, that ere it had try. I regret that the reverse was the been announced to Parliament, they had effect of it; in its result it has been in- been consulted with, and had approved of jurious to the common law, and done it. My Lords, I cannot help remarking much to impair respect for the Judges in that the circumstances and coincidences of Ireland, the Judges in England, and for the case would almost force upon me the the law authorities in this House. conviction that the Act your Lordships The Duke of Wellington: My Lords, are now called upon to ratify, is the acI rise to order. We have now been de- tual reward of service the earnest of bating two nights on the question before future gratitude for similar assistance. It the House, which is a Bill for the estab-is, my Lords, the personal character alone lishment of a College at Maynooth; and I do not know that the monster meetings, or the conduct of the Government in respect to those monster meetings, or the prosecutions, have any relation to the Motion before the House. I must submit to the noble Earl that he should attend a little to the question which is under the consideration of the House. The conduct of the Government on the monster meetings, and on the prosecution, or any subject of that description, is a very proper subject for discussion, but not on the question of the establishment of Maynooth. of the individuals connected with the Government that forbids the belief that papal authority has been subsidized to aid in the Government of Ireland. A strong feeling of this kind, I believe, prevails out of doors. Protestants of Ireland begin to doubt the capability of the English Government to afford protection, or to maintain in that country the principles of the British Constitution. It is impossible not to be struck with the very altered views of Her Majesty's Ministers since 1840. Then we were told by Sir Robert Peel that the system of instruction at Maynooth was a legitimate subject of consideration for Parliament, and that it would be an abandonment of duty to allow doctrines to be inculcated which might be injurious to the supremacy of the law, or destruc The Earl of Clancarty: My Lords, I do not consider that I was at all out of order, or wandering from the question before the House, when the noble Duke rose to interrupt me. I think it is im-tive to the established Government. Now portant that the House should not only understand the nature and tendency of the Bill, but likewise the circumstances under which it was introduced; therefore, however disposed in general to bow to the opinion of the noble Duke, I shall proceed with the statement of those circumstances. I had, in fact, nearly arrived at the conclusion, when the noble Duke interfered. It is now authoritatively declared that the law is no longer capable of putting down the agitation of the country. It is true that the law is for that purpose inoperative, and this is the occasion for announcing the policy of conciliation; but while the law is thus impotent, no one can fail to have been struck with the ready obedience yielded by the Roman Catholic Parliament is required not merely to surrender all such power of control, but to make an increased and perpetual grant without any inquiry whatever. My Lords, I will not dwell upon these inconsistencies, which have so shaken all confidence in public men; but I cannot forbear from contrasting the facility with which the Government abandoned a Bill two years ago for providing a religious education in the principles of the Established Church for the thousands of poor unprovided factory children, in consequence of a few petitions from dissenting bodies, with the determination they now show, notwithstanding that ten times the uumber of petitions have been presented against it, to carry a measure for the propagation of the Roman consistent support to this Bill; if, on the contrary, you believe that those doctrines are contrary to God's Word, it is impossible decided opposition. Let it not, my Lords, be supposed that I would convey to the House an opinion that legislation should be stopped by petitions-far from it-but mind is so strongly declared as it bas been with respect to this Bill, that it is due to the petitioners carefully to examine into the grounds of their opposition; to act otherwise is to outrage public opinion, and practically to annul the privilege of petition. Measures are undoubtedly necessary for Ireland, and none more desir able than those which may tend to improve the social condition of the people; but of all imaginable measures for such a purpose, to have entered into the minds of Englishmen, who once rejoiced in their emancipation from the Romish yoke, this scheme of fastening and perpetuating upon Ireland the infliction of Maynooth College- this policy of strengthening the papal authority over the Irish population, is the very last that could have been expected from a British Parliament, an English Government, or a Protestant So Catholic religion. The interests of the Established Church, or the poor, are thrown away with little or no hesitation those of the Church of Rome must be sup-to doubt that you will give the Bill your ported at all hazards. I trust, however, that your Lordships will not be so insensible to the Protestant feelings of the nation. Objection has been made to the language of some of these petitioners-I do certainly think that where the public the language, my Lords, is, no doubt, strong, but it is not stronger than the case warranted, nor than the language of the Constitution. Your Lordships' own declarations in Parliament have been couched in language quite as strong. Having presented many of these petitions, I must say that those who signed them had good warrant for believing that their prayer would be favourably heard. In addressing your Lordships, they knew that you had witnessed the solemn declaration made by Her Majesty at her Coronation-they had therefore good reason to hope that you would readily abstain from advising her to put her hand to an Act for the encouragement of a form of worship, of which she had testified her belief openly before God and man, that it was superstitious and idolatrous. And the fact, that a great majority of your Lordships-all who held seats in Parliament up to the year 1829-vereign. have made and subscribed, and, of course, in so doing, have sincerely assented to the declaration prescribed by the 30th Charles II., s. 2., than which no language can be more strongly condemnatory of Roman Catholic doctrine, might well have justified their belief, that acting upon your own opinions so solemnly expressed, you would have concurred with them in opposing the measure. I must add another strong ground of confidence that your petitioners must have had in approaching your Lordships' House. They knew that this measure would be debated in the presence of that right rev. Bench, whose peculiar obligations have been already more than once referred to. It is with the most profound respect that I now address myself to them. My Lords, the country looks with confidence to your decision upon this measure as Bishops. You sit in this House as Bishops. You have accepted the solemn obligation of opposing your-cussion; but as the noble Duke, in introselves to the dissemination of doctrines contrary to God's Word. Do you believe that the Roman Catholic doctrines taught at Maynooth College are in accordance with God's Word? If you do, you will give a The Duke of Cleveland was anxious to vindicate his consistency in the course which he was about to pursue in respect of the Bill now before the House; for if value were attached to the consistency of the public conduct of a Minister in office, or a Statesman who aspired to an official station, it was in a minor degree important to every Member of the Legislature, however humble might be his position. He regretted that in this instance he differed from several of those with whom he generally concurred in political questions; but he trusted to be able to prove to them that in supporting this Bill, which he felt it his duty to do, he was only acting in strict conformity with the policy which he had always pursued and had steadily recommended with respect to Ireland, from his first entrance into public life. The debate for the last two nights had assumed the character of a theological dis ducing the measure, had stated that he considered the question before them, not a religious, but solely a political one, so it was in the latter point of view that he wished to consider it in the few observa Lordships' Table, this measure had proved a complete failure. The complaint was made that public feeling had, in this instance been disregarded; and he believed that the disregard of public feeling might be pushed to an extent to which no wise and prudent Minister would desire to push it. A noble Earl who had spoken last night (the Earl of Hardwicke) had expressed himself in favour of endowing the tions which he was about to make. In the first place he would observe, that he had supported from first to last the relief measure of 1829. Indeed, from the year 1812 up to the year in which the Catholic Relief Bill was brought forward-a period of seventeen years he was in the constant habit of acting in conjunction with the Whig party of the day. He supported them upon every question which they brought forward, except that of Parlia-Roman Catholic priesthood. He hoped mentary Reform. When the Reform Bill he should never live to see the adoption was passed he quitted the party. During of such a course by the Legislature. If an the whole of this period the grant to Act should ever be brought in for endowMaynooth had been continued without ing that priesthood, the only source from interruption-in fact, so far as he was which the means of so doing could be aware, it had been continued up to the drawn would be that from which this inyear 1830, nearly without opposition. creased grant to Maynooth was sought to From that year to the year 1842, when he be taken, namely, the Consolidated Fund. left the House of Commons, it certainly The noble Earl intimated that the was opposed on more occasions than one; funds for such endowment should be but when it was so opposed he had always taken from the Protestant and Estabheartily supported it. Having carefully lished Church in Ireland. The noble examined the measure now brought for- Earl had forgotten that it was on that ward by Her Majesty's Government, he very point that Mr. Stanley and Sir could not, he confessed, see that it did in James Graham had formerly quitted office, itself recognise any new principle on and that Sir Robert Peel left office in which they had not acted before. There 1835. He did not mean to say that the was certainly this difference, that it ren- noble Earl, who was a Lord of the Beddered that permanent which was before chamber, was an authority as to the opinbut an annual grant. But could they ions of the Government; but they all knew suppose that, should it be continued as that when a Member of the Legislature an annual grant, instead of being made accepted office in the Household, he lost perpetual, it was probable that they could his Parliamentary independence. He conever withdraw it? He should be acting sidered this measure in itself, treated it most inconsistently, if he were to withdraw on its own merits, and looked upon it as his support from the grant now, merely brought before them without any reference because it was brought before them in the to what might follow, and he could see noshape of an increased grant. He looked thing in it to which he did not most upon this Bill merely as a Bill by itself, cordially assent. He did not entertain and wished to consider it as such without those apprehensions of danger as resulting reference to any other measure whatso- from this measure which were shared in ever. Some might think that, as a mea- by many of his noble Friends, and would sure, it was dangerous, because it had a therefore, as he had already stated, give tendency to lead to other and further it his support. He had always contended measures. What might be the intentions for a liberal course of policy towards Ireof Her Majesty's Government in this re- land. Every just and real grievance of spect, of course, he knew not, and could which the Irish had to complain should not, therefore, say. But he could not be redressed, and that, too, without help remarking that if it were put forward making any difference or creating any exmerely as a measure for ascertaining the ceptions arising from religious opinions. state of public feeling, and, having ascer- He also thought that toleration should, as tained that, that the Government might regarded Ireland, be carried to the greatest be able to learn whether it would be wise extent to which it could be carried with or prudent to introduce measures of a safety, and likewise that conciliation should stronger and very different character, as be effected, if it could be effected within encouragement for the Government so to any just and reasonable limits. The conproceed-judging from the nature and duct of Her Majesty's Government had the number of the petitions laid upon their been most praiseworthy in endeavouring to do that, by acts of favour and grace, which could only otherwise be effected by main force, and which main force must, as they all knew, be resorted to, if all other means should fail. If they could obtain and secure the peace, the repose, and the happiness of Ireland, by conciliation, at so small a cost as that which was proposed under the present Bill, he thought that it was, at all events, well worth their while to make the experi ment. The Earl of Hardwicke rose to explain, and he would endeavour to repeat what he had said, and he thought the repetition would answer as his explanation. He had last night asked the question, whether there were in Ireland 151 Protestant livings that had no congregations whatever attached to them? He had said that if such existed, it was a monstrous state of things. He had then gone on to say, in speaking of the prospects which many of their Lordships considered must exist, of seeing the Roman Catholic Church endowed at some future day in Ireland, that he did not at the same time know from what source such endowment was to come. It was after he had so said, that he asked the question with regard to the livings. What was then in his mind was this, and he thought he had so expressed himself, that, if there were such a monstrous state of things existing as having Protestant churches without a single soul to go into them, with a large Roman Catholic community in their immediate neighbourhood, it was to the Catholic religion they should be applied, which they might be, in his opinion, with great propriety, and with great security to the Protestant Church. With regard to the other observations which his noble Friend who had just sat down thought fit to make, he would only add that the opinion he had just expressed was his own, and that he was entirely and solely responsible for them. arguments in reference to this question, Earl Spencer spoke as follows: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will permit me to address you, for a short time, upon this important subject; and, in the hope that this protracted debate will conclude to-night, I promise that my remarks will be brief, and as pertinent to the subject as I can make them. It is not because I indulge the expectation that anything that I can say will throw any new light upon the subject; it is not because I think that I can adduce any new |