truly, that this matter required great and grave consideration; and he mentioned the harbour of Dover, and said, he was un any sudden and unforeseen attack. Then when they considered the strength and capacity of all the French harbours on the opposite side of the Channel, Brest, Cher-willing to embark in a very large expenbourg, St. Malo, Calais that was to be, and Dunkirk that was to be, he thought it the duty of Government, considering the facility which steam vessels now afforded for the sudden transport of large bodies of troops to any given point, not only to go on as they were doing, and increase the steam force of the country, but to place those vulnerable points, namely, the dockyards, in a state of security against a sudden attack. He did not pretend to say that they were to be fortified, like Magdeburg, to stand a long siege, because that was not the danger to which they were exposed. All that was wanted was, that there should be the means of repelling any sudden attack arising either immediately on a sudden declaration of war, or perhaps, as was the case with the expedition sent to Ireland on the failure of Lord Malinesbury's negotiations, even before any official manifestation had been made that hostilities would take place; and that was the answer to the little attempt of the right hon. Gentleman to cast ridicule upon the speech of his hon. and gallant Friend, that it would be difficult to frame an estimate that would satisfy his hon. and gallant Friend's expectations. No man in his senses would pretend to fortify every point of the coast, or imagine that by so doing he could prevent, even in time of war, the landing of an enemy. But there were some points-take our dockyards-where, in the course of a very few hours, injury might be done, which, in money, reputation, national feeling, and means of future defence, would be absolutely irreparable. It might be said that the force which was sent to do that injury might never return, and that every man would perish; but he gave credit to the courage, bravery, and national spirit of other countries; and even if it were known that every Frenchman who was engaged in burning Portsmouth and Plymouth, would perish, he believed that the French Government would not be at a loss in obtaining volunteers for the service. It was thought nonsense to say that the thing was impossible. He then came to the question of the necessity of having harbours on the coast, not merely to protect our commerce from the boisterous warfare of the elements, but also to protect it in war from the cruisers of the enemy, and to form points of assembling for those steamers which are to protect the coast. The hon. Baronet said, diture without being sure that the place to be chosen was good in a military, naval, and commercial point of view. There was a doubt expressed in the Report of the Commissioners whether Dover was a position which would permanently repay the required expenditure; and Dover was the place for which the largest estimate was allowed, and therefore it was necessary that the Government, before incurring that expenditure, should have an opportunity of fully considering the question. But on the other point, the Estimates of which were small in amount, no difference of opinion prevailed among the Commissioners; and he had not heard of any difference of opinion on the part of any of the Commissioners with regard to those proposed harbours. Then, he asked, why should not the Government begin as soon as possible to undertake some of those works, with regard to the advantage of which no doubt was entertained, and the amount of which was not such as to exceed the financial power of the country; for it must be remembered that works of this sort were not built in a day; that they could not get on with sea-work faster than at a certain rate, and that, therefore, the yearly expenditure would be comparatively small? Then, had we the means? He was sure that we had. Suppose the Government had determined to lay out 300,000l. a year for five or six years to come upon those harbours? If they had only devoted the sum remitted by the repeal of the auction duties for instance. When the right hon. Baronet proposed the repeal of those duties, he rather played with the House. He said, "Now, I come to a tax which I am going to repeal, and of which no human being has ever thought; for the repeal of which nobody ever asked ;" and after leaving the House to guess what it might be, he at length told them that it was the auction duties. It struck him at the time that the right hon. Baronet was passing rather a severe censure and sarcasm on his own measure; because when important national objects like those under discussion at the present moment demanded an expenditure of public money, that the Government should set about to search for a tax for the repeal of which nobody asked, and of the continuance of which no one complained, appeared to him to argue a neglect on their part of the duty which they owed to their country. If, therefore, they had only taken the amount wasted in the repeal of the auction duties, and had applied it to the construction of harbours of refuge, they would have conferred a far greater pecuniary advantage on the country. He hoped, after what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet, that before the close of the present Session a proposal on that point would be submitted to the House; for it would be unfortunate, indeed, if a delay of another year were suffered to intervene on a matter which required time for its accomplishment. Work as hard as they might, several years must elapse before they could, by possibility, finish such works in a manner to make them efficient for their object. He entreated the Government not to allow this matter to drop; and in paying attention to our arsenals, he hoped the harbours of refuge would not be neglected. The fortifications of Paris, a work of immense magnitude, which cost fourteen millions sterling and upwards, were accomplished in the course of three or four years. France never grudged any amount of money which might be necessary for her national independence and her national safety. In his opinion this did France the highest honour. And yet the French were comparatively not so wealthy a people as ourselves: they had not the same means perhaps of furnishing taxes; but they never grudged their money, when the national honour and independence were concerned for the increase of their navy, the fortification of their capital, or the defence of their frontiers. In such a case France was ever ready to grant any sum required-feeling assured that money so laid out would repay itself with interest by saving their country the infinitely larger expense which must be incurred in the case of imminent danger, by preventing that danger from happening. He did not make these observations in a tone of censure upon the Government. If any blame had been incurred because our dockyards were not in a state of perfect defence, it belonged to the former Government as well as to the present, with this difference only, that the great developments which steam navigation had received in the course of the last three or four years rendered protection still more necessary than at any former period. It was not, therefore, for the purpose of imputing blame to the Government that he had made these observations, but in order to draw their attention to matters of such high importance; and, he would add, of daily increasing importance, looking at the great state of military and naval preparation going forward in another country; and also of greater importance after the experience which they had had of late years, that the best intentions on the part of two Governments might be frustrated by rash and impetuous men in distant parts of the globe. He trusted the Government would take in good part the observations which he had made; and if, as he entertained no doubt, they were disposed to bring forward plans of this sort, it might afford them some facility to know that Members on that (the Opposition) side of the House were disposed to sanction cordially any expenditure of the public money which might be necessary for the interest and safety of the Empire. Captain Harris thought the hon. and gallant Member (Sir C. Napier) had made out a case, however imprudent it might be to lay bare our weak points. A due proportion ought to be kept up between our Navy and defences, and the available power of France. He rejoiced that the question of harbours of refuge was to be taken up by the Government, and expense ought not to stand in the way. Mr. C. Wood impressed on the Government the necessity of losing no time as to this question. He hoped the Session would not be suffered to expire without a vote being taken for commencing these works at Dover, or at one of the places named. Colonel T. Wood felt bound to say, that the amount of troops we had to defend the country in case of war was not adequate. When it was considered what enormous military power was given to France by the fortifications at Paris, and that that country could, at a short notice, have 80,000 men at Boulogne, it be hoved the Government to see that our constitutional force of the militia was not suffered to relapse into complete desuetude. Question again put that the Order of the Day be read. PROTESTANT DISSENTING MINISTERS] Mr. Hindley moved for a return of the names of the persons receiving the allowance granted to Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, with the names of the trustees administering the same. When he had presented, on the late Maynooth discussion, so many petitions from the Dissenters, disclaiming a State allowance, he felt it would be inconsistent not to discard a grant of this kind. He called on the Government to withdraw it, or to give the names of those who received it. The Dissenters felt it a reflection that they should be supposed to receive Government support in this way, just, as he dared say, the Government would be disposed to disavow the truth of a rumour which he heard generally circulated, that a Member of the Cabinet, though drawing a large income from the State paid no Income Tax. [Cries of "Name, name," from the Ministerial bench.] He was glad this was felt as a home thrust; and he should say at once the individual he referred to was the Lord Chancellor. He hoped, as the Government felt this imputation so strongly, that they would not refuse his Return. Mr. Cardwell opposed the Motion. The hon. Member had made a similar Motion before, and the House had refused, except in a modified form. In that form he had no objection to grant it them. The facts of the case were these:- A small grant of 1,7007. a year had been given to the Dissenting body since the time of George I., and it was distributed in sums of 51. and upwards among the ministers, under the sanction of trustees, of whom three were Presbyterian, three Independent, and three Baptist. The treasurer, Dr. Reed, had written to him in reference to the Motion of the hon. Member then before the House, and stated that there were grave objections to communicating the names of the recipients of that bounty, because they were mostly men of academical education, who had their small stipends eked out with that allowance: and who were struggling to keep up a position in society which they could not do, if such communication was made public. He had, however, no objection to a Return similar to one obtained by the hon. Member for Montrose in relation to the Episcopal Clergy of Scotland: and it would, without disclosing the names of the parties receiving the money, give all the substantial information required. Mr. Williams considered that the House had a right to know the names of those persons who received the public money; and he was of opinion that those who had an objection to the publication of their names should not accept it. He suggested a classification of the sums paid, and the numbers of those who belonged to the several classes. According to his view of the case, no sect which professed to maintain its own clergy should receive anything from the public. Dr. Bowring said, he hoped the Government would give them some information on the subject. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he should object to giving returns of this kind, referring to a class of persons in a respectable station of society, and yet having small means. Lord Worsley said, that the public ought to be satisfied that responsible trustees were appointed, and that those trustees were proper parties; and no Motion made to the effect of appointing others, unless every guarantee that the money was properly bestowed, was given to the public. Mr. S. Crawford said, he should protest on public grounds to any persons receiving public money whose names were concealed; and more especially that those who were in favour of the voluntary principle should receive State pay. Sir W. Somerville said, that the present discussion would not have arisen were it not for the late debate on the grant to Maynooth. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hindley) now wanted to make amends for his former supineness on the voluntary principle. Those persons were not the only Dissenters who received State pay. He recollected that in 1836 his hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale had supported the Vote for the Presbyterians, and so did the hon. Member for Finsbury, who was not now in his place. Mr. S. Crawford said, he had no recollection of the statement made by his hon. Friend. In 1837, he distinctly recollected that he voted against the grant. The House divided on the Question, that the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Question;-Ayes 54; Noes 3: Majority 51. Order of the Day read. On the Question that the Speaker do now leave the Chair-— THE LIFE GUARDS.] Mr. Craven Berkeley proceeded, in accordance with his Motion, to call the attention of the House to the changes proposed to be made in the clothing and remount fund of the two regiments of Life Guards, by a warrant dated March 14, 1845, signed by the Secretary at War, which, he contended, was a great injustice to the soldiers, and, I mouth, and that I said there were only in fact, a breach of agreement. The debt sixteen guns to defend the harbour. Í of the Royal Horse Guards was of consi-stated that the sea defences were not good; derable amount; and the officers were that only thirteen guns enfiladed the har. compelled to pay for the band, over which bour, and those of the ramparts were all they had no control. The proposed change exposed, and could not prevent a fleet was a mere petty, paltry, and dirty eco- running into the harbour. As to what nomy against one of the finest regiments the right hon. Baronet stated, I was so in the world. The Report of the Board of well defended by the noble Lord, that it General Officers was decidedly opposed was unnecessary for me to repel the atto any such reduction in either of the tempt, the unworthy attempt of the right regiments of Life Guards, as it could not hon. Baronet to throw odium upon me for be made without impairing their efficiency. stating our want of defence; and I should The hon. and gallant Member said, that tell him, if next year Pembroke, Falmouth, there was no mode of obstruction which Sheerness, and the Channel Islands, were the House afforded, which he would not in the same state, I should bring it before avail himself of to prevent the passing of Parliament. any army votes, so long as this warrant should remain in force. Mr. Sidney Herbert said, that the Board of General Officers went into a full inquiry into the case of the Horse Guards, and they made a very voluminous report. It certainly did appear that there was a considerable sum in arrear owing from the Horse Guards. With respect to the alterations mentioned by the hon. and gallant Officer, in regard to the clothing of the regiment, that was a subject which he would not go into, because a great difference of opinion existed upon it. He was perfectly satisfied that the arrangement made was one quite compatible with the comfort and efficiency of the troops. He sincerely believed that no unnecessary expense would be incurred for these troops; and that the public property was expended with a due regard both to the efficiency of the troops and to public economy. The Horse Guards had incurred considerable expense with a view to put themselves upon a footing with the Life Guards. He was quite willing to believe that the hon. and gallant Officer was actuated by public motives in bringing forward this question; but he was contented to rest his judgment on the opinion of those military officers who had paid proper attention to the subject. The change had been made under the highest military authorities; and he hoped, therefore, that the hon, and gallant Officer would not carry into execution his threat. Sir C. Napier; I wish to correct a statement of the gallant Officer the Clerk of the Ordnance. He must have misunderstood me; for I am sure he did not intend to misrepresent me. He stated that I ridiculed the fortification of Ports House went into a Committee of Supply, and 390,000l. were voted for the Ordnance Department. House resumed, and adjourned at a quarter past one. HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, June 16, 1845. MINUTES.] BILLS. Public.1 Bishops' Patronage (Ireland). 2a. Schoolmasters (Scotland). 3. and passed :-Maynooth College (Ireland). 2. Manchester Court of Record: Manchester Improve- ment. Reported.-Dunstable and Birmingham and London Railway; Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway (Keymer Branch); Belfast and Ballymena Railway; Yoker Road; Leicester Freemen's Allotments; Lady Sandy's (Turner's) Estate; York and Scarborough Railway Deviation. 3. and passed:-Blackburn, Burnley, Accrington and Colne Extension Railway; Leeds, Dewsbury and Manchester Railway; Glasgow Markets; Stokinchurch Road; Rochdale Vicarage (Molesworth's) Estate; Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction Railway; Chester and Holyhead Railway; Leeds and Bradford Railway Extension (Shipley to Colne); Watermen's Company EndowPETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Bishops of Winchester, and Llandaff, Earls of Winchilsea and Roden, and by the Marquess of Breadalbane, from Stewartstown, and a great number of other places, against Increase of Grant to Maynooth College.-From Saint Ives, in favour of Increase of Grant to Maynooth College.--From Bishop and Clergy of Clogher, and from Castledermot, for Inquiry into Course of Instruction adopted at Maynooth College. -From King's Lynn, against Law of Debtor and Cre ditor. From Guardians of Trim Union, against Poor Law (Ireland) Act, respecting the Repayment of Money advanced for Building Workhouses.-From Trustees of Turnpike Roads of County of Selkirk, for the Insertion of Clause in the Turnpike Roads (Scotland) Amendment Act. By the Duke of Buccleuch, from Ministers aud Elders of the Church of Scotland, met in General Assembly, for Improving the Condition of School or the necessity of taking part at an early tion of Clause in the Hawick Railway Bill, to pre- period of life, in the conduct of great affairs, masters (Scotland).-From Galashiels, for the Inser vent the Running of Trains on the Sabbath.-From Manhood, against the Running of Railway Trains on the Sabbath. THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE-SERVICES OF SIR H. POTTINGER.] Order of the Day for taking into consideration Her Majesty's Message, read. The Message having been read by the Clerk at the Table, The Earl of Aberdeen: I rise to move an humble Address to Her Majesty, in answer to Her most gracious Message which your Lordships have just heard; and in doing so, it will be necessary for me to detain you but a very few minutes. I have already had opportunities in this House of bearing testimony to the great merits of the distinguished person who, on the present occasion, is the object of Her Majesty's gracious consideration; and I have not been sparing in those expressions of admiration and praise of that conduct which appeared to Her Majesty's Government to be so justly due. My Lords, those sentiments have found an echo throughout the whole country. In every part of the kingdom, in England, in Scot land, in Ireland, the presence of Sir Henry Pottinger has been welcomed with enthusiasm, and every effort made to do him honour. My Lords, it is clear that the vast majority of those places which have so united, and expressed such opinions, could have had very little means of duly estimating the real merits of Sir Henry Pottinger. They looked to the boundless field which he had opened to British enterprise, and to that inexhaustible source of commercial wealth and prosperity which by his means had been rendered accessible to our fellow countrymen. But, my Lords, I feel it my duty to say, that the real merits of Sir Henry Pottinger would have deserved your Lordships' approbation, and the approbation of his Sovereign as much, if they had not been attended with such magnificent results. For, throughout his whole conduct, in the relation in which it was my good fortune to stand towards him, there never wanted fresh occasion to do justice to the great qualities of his mind, and the conduct he pursued towards China. Sir Henry Pottinger, in being selected for the service in China, was removed from service in a school to which, I may be permitted to say, I think the State has on more than one occasion been greatly indebted. I know not how it is, whether from long habit of self-reliance, but the fact is, that the service of the East India Company has produced men who, by the energy of their character, and the statesmanlike views which they have entertained, are peculiarly qualified to contend successfully with the greatest difficulties, and to confer the most signal advantages on their country. My Lords, when Sir Henry Pottinger went to China, he found everything he had to undertake strange and new-the business on which he was employed, and the people with whom he had to deal. The success, therefore, which has attended his labours, has occasioned much and very natural surprise. It is not astonishing that, with the assistance and by the gallantry of the naval and military forces employed in that war, he should have been enabled in no long time to dictate peace at Nankin; but, I say it is wonderful that he should have found the means of, by his character and conduct, so conciliating the persons with whom he had to deal, as to annihilate the pain of defeat, and convert suspicion and hatred into confidence and friendship. My Lords, looking to the difficulties with which he had to contend, he performed the service in a manner which cannot but be consi dered most remarkable. In the commercial details with which he had to occupy himself, as well as in the regulation of the administrative Government, he showed the same judgment, the same energy, attended with the same success; and I cannot help saying, that although it was the object of Her Majesty's Government to endeavour, as much as possible, to relieve him from all responsibility by furnishing him with every instruction calculated to meet every difficulty that could arise, your Lordships must be perfectly aware that in the situation in which he was placed, that was quite impossible for us to do, and that much was necessarily left to his own discretion. Now, my Lords, I believe I may say, that in the whole course of his service I do not recollect any act, certainly none of any importance, acting as he did on his own discretion, which did not fully meet with the approbation of Her Majesty's Government. My Lords, I am not about to enter into any details, but it may be, perhaps, satisfactory to your Lordships to know the result of that great opening which has been made for British commerce. I may be permitted to state, that the value of British goods imported into |