outrage, until at last there was no attempt at the maintenance of order. In corroboration of this statement, the noble Lord read the following address from the inhabitants of Auckland to Governor Fitzroy: "It is with sorrow that for some time past, we have observed discontent and dissatisfaction widely spreading anong the natives. The first establishment of the Queen's authority here was hailed by them with joy, and more extended intercourse tended for some time to increase their respect for us; but of late many events have occurred to diminish this, until it is now all but destroyed. It is well known that the natives regard us now neither with respect nor fear. Our physical power has been brought into contempt; but what is still more to be regretted, the moral influence which had been acquired over them has also been lost." He would not now go into a detail of the means which the Governor resorted to in order to restore that moral power which was lost; but no man who read the Papers through would think that they were well calculated to effect the object. He knew that it had been alleged in vindication, or rather in extenuation, of the want of firmness which had been shown by the Colonial Government, that it never had the command of a sufficient military power to enforce obedience to its authority. Captain Hobson, Mr. Shortland, and Captain Fitzroy had all in succession complained of the want of troops, and expressed most exaggerated apprehensions of the numbers and warlike character of the New Zealanders. He believed it was not force, but resolution and firmness in using the force of which they had the power of availing themselves, that were wanting to these successive Governors. If they had made a proper use of that power which organization always gives the civilized man over savages; if they had used it firmly and temperately, not to oppress the natives and rob them of their possessions, but to maintain discipline, and teach them the blessings of peace and order; if that policy had been followed from the first, no man could believe that there would have been resistance to British authority; or that, if offered, it would not have been speedily suppressed. Really, the apprehension of the power of the New Zealanders seemed to him absolutely ludicrous. Had it not been found that the superior intelligence and the powers of concert and combination of civilized men invariably made them too strong to be resisted by barbarous tribes, however great the disparity of numbers? Could they for a moment compare the dangers to which the white inhabitants of New Zealand were exposed from the natives, with those of the early settlers in New England from the hostility of the Indians? The North American Indians were far more numerous than the New Zealanders, well skilled in their peculiar mode of warfare, which was suited to the nature of the country they inhabited, and capable of understanding the advantages of combining together against their European enemies, as witness the well-known confederacy of the Six Nations; yet against such formidable enemies as the North American Indians, the superior intelligence of civilized settlers enable them to maintain their ground unaided by any regular military or naval force. The New Zealanders were comparatively few in number, though personally brave, utterly unacquainted with even the rudiments of the art of war, and so divided by mutual animosities and jealousies that it would hardly be possible to get two tribes to act together in concert against Europeans: to dread, therefore, their power, or to doubt that, with proper firmness from the first, the authority of the Government might not easily have been maintained, was altogether unreasonable. He would not, however, lay the whole blame of this want of firmness on the local authorities. He concurred in the opinion which had been already expressed, that Captain Fitzroy had great reason to complain of the absence of any proper instructions on this most important point from the Home Government. In the despatch of Lord Stanley, dated the 18th of April, 1844, he found, to his great surprise, not one word respecting this state of anarchy, and not one syllable of instructions to the Governor as to the means to be adopted to correct that state of things. Now, he wanted to know what was the object of civil government? Was it not to prevent breaches of the peace, and to teach men to refer their disputes to the decision of competent authority? The natives had been taught to despise them, and he was afraid that they would not unlearn that lesson except by the employment of means which were fearful. When at length Captain Fitzroy was driven to find that peace was not to be obtained by concession, and that yielding to uncivilized and barbarous men all that they asked only provoked fresh demands-when he found out that, and resorted to force, he (Lord Howick) expected that Captain Fitzroy, belonged, his age and station, he could like other weak men who were at last hardly have that weight and authority driven to make a stand, would display as necessary to enable a Governor to do all little moderation and prudence in the use that was required by the state of New of force, as he had exhibited wisdom in ab- | Zealand. His task would be no easy one. staining from it so long. The policy pur- He took it for granted the absurd ordisued in New Zealand had been attended nances which had been passed by Captain with the most baneful effects. Large num- Fitzroy, sanctioning the purchase of land bers of their fellow countrymen who had from the natives, would not be allowed to gone out there had appealed to them, and stand good; at the same time, claims would it was for that House to say whether that have accrued under them which it would appeal should be in vain. If he had made be difficult to adjust, and they ought to out his case, that these calamities and this send some one whose name would have fearful state of things were the result of weight and authority sufficient to put down bad policy and misgovernment, it was then those that were frivolous and unfounded. the absolute duty of the House to acquiesce If he were Captain Grey, he should have in the Motion of the hon. Member for some doubt about accepting the commisLiskeard, Mr. Charles Buller. It was clear sion with which the Government proto him that there was no hope of a real posed to entrust him. He could not conimprovement in the policy of the Govern- sider the selection made by the Government, until they pronounced an opinion on ment as altogether a wise one, and he intheir past policy. He said this with more finitely preferred the suggestion of his confidence, because it appeared from the hon. and learned Friend. It was a strong speech of the hon. Member for Southamp- reason in favour of such an appointment, ton (Mr. G. W. Hope) that the Govern- that if it were intended that the affairs of ment still clung to all the main features of New Zealand should go on well, one most that policy. Therefore, it was time for essential thing in the new Governor would the House to interfere; and let them do be, that he should have very little scruple so by carrying the vote for going into in dismissing the highly paid and incapaCommittee; and in the Committee, he ble servants of the Government, by whose thought the Resolutions should be mainly misconduct the present state of things had confined to condemning what was past. been produced. It was the abject weakHe did not think that at the present time, ness and pusillanimity (he feared in some and at this distance from the scene of ac- cases faults still more unpardonable) of the tion, they were in a condition to pronounce Police Magistrates and Commissioners and any confident opinion as to particular mea- Protectors; which had brought on these evils sures to be adopted. All they could do and he feared, till a large proportion of was to tell the Government to choose the them were removed, they would not be remeablest man for Governor, one that would died. The duties of Government required carry the greatest authority. Let them in an infant settlement might be discharged offer such a man any advantage to induce by the Colonists themselves, who had a him to go to that Colony; tell him that what stake in its welfare, either gratuitously, was past was wrong, but leave him at en- for the honour such functions conferred, tire liberty to act as he should find expe- or at all events for a small remuneration. dient when he arrived at the Colony; fet- The new Governor would require large ter him by no instructions-give him the and unlimited powers to restore order largest and most unreserved powers, and and the dominion of law in the Colony. let him act as he should find that the When that was accomplished he hoped state of affairs might require. They were they would revert to the ancient and told that the present Governor of South wise policy of their ancestors, and allow Australia was to be sent to New Zealand. the colonists to govern themselves. He had heard this with some regret-not doubt they would commit some mistakes, that he did not entertain a high opinion of perhaps serious ones; but all experience Captain Grey; on the contrary, he thought was in favour of self-government. When his administration in South Australia did he looked at what their ancestors accomhim the greatest credit. But having there plished two centuries ago under this sysgained the confidence of the Colony, which tem, and contrasted it with the results was flourishing under his rule, he considered of attempting to govern from Downing it a pity to disturb it. He thought, too Street a settlement at the antipodes, he from his rank in the service to which he must say experience was decidedly in No House would do justice to these individuals, and if they would do justice to the natives themselves, who of all others had been injured by the system pursued, they could not refuse the Motion of his hon. and learned Friend. Debate again adjourned. favour of allowing a Colony to govern itself. Admitting, as he had already done, that serious mistakes might still very probably be committed, those mistakes would be likely to be promptly corrected, when the power of applying a remedy was in the hands of those who suffered by them. Unfortunately, under the present system, there was no exemption from error, and far greater difficulty in correcting it. We had now before us a melancholy proof of the height to which misgovernment might be carried in Downing Street, before an effective remedy BILLS Public.-1. Banking (Ireland); Small Debts (No. It could be applied. From some experience of the Colonial Office, he was persuaded that it was utterly impossible for any man, be his talents and industry what they might, adequately to administer such complicated affairs as those of the British Colonies, scattered all over the world. was totally impossible to remedy this deficiency, as suggested by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Hawes), by the constitution of a Board. His experience of the administration of Boards was anything but satisfactory; a Board was, in his opinion, the most clumsy and ineffective contrivance of Government ever invented. [Mr. Sidney Herbert: Hear.] The right hon. Secretary at War cheered: no doubt the right hon. Gentleman was suffering as he had suffered before him in the same Department, from the difficulty of dealing with that pest of the British Army, the Board of Ordnance. For a Colony, he believed self-government was the best. The hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies said, that there would then be no security for the natives; it would have been well for the natives of New Zealand if the Colony had been self-governed. Nothing could be worse for them than the state of anarchy that had been produced. Were that got rid of, nothing would be easier than to give them proper security, especially if the policy of the New Zealand Company was followed-that of amalgamating the two races. He concluded by again repeating that the question really before the House was the approval or disapproval of the policy hitherto pursued in New Zealand, and the consideration of the first step towards a new and improved system of administration. If the House entertained a regard for the just claims of their fellow subjects in the Colony of New Zealand, men whose courage and perseverance in pursuing the great design they had undertaken was worthy of the highest commendation, if the House adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, June 19, 1845. MINUTES. Took the Oaths.-The Earl of Lismore. 2); Real Property Conveyance (No. 2). 2. Bishops' Patronage (Ireland); Military Savings Banks, Oaths Dispensation. Reported.-Ecclesiastical Courts Consolidation; Charitable Trusts. 3 and passed :-Schoolmasters (Scotland). Private.-1 Birmingham Blue Coat Charity School Estate; Waterford and Limerick Railway; Whitehaven and Furness Railway; Eastern Union (Bury St. Edmund's) Railway; North Wales Railway; North Woolwich Railway; Dundalk and Enniskillen Railway; Staleybridge Waterworks; Manchester and Birmingham (Ashton Branch) Railway; Wolverhampton Waterworks; Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (Cum. nock Branch). 2a. Severn's Estate; Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland; Kendal Reservoirs; Dundee Waterworks; Battersea Poor; North British Insurance Company; Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Tynemouth Extension) Railway; Aberdeen Railway; Dundee and Perth Railway; Monkland and Kirkintilloch Railway. Reported.-York and North Midland Railway (Bridlington Branch); Hull and Selby Railway (Bridlington Branch); Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway; Great North of England and Richmond Railway; Newcastle and Berwick Railway; Bridgewater Navigation and Railway; Clydesdale Junction Railway; Lancaster and Carlisle Railway; York and North Midland Railway (Harrogate Branch); Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway; Lord Barrington's Estate; Whitby and Pickering Railway; Manchester and Leeds Railway (Burnley, Oldham, and Heywood Branches); Kendal and Windermere Railway; West of London and Westminster Cemetery; Taunton Gas. 3. and passed:-Castle Hill (Wexford) Docks; Bedford and London Railway; Shrewsbury, Oswestry, and Chester Junction Railway; Berks and Hants Railway; Lowestoft Railway and Harbour; Blackburn, Darwen, and Bolton Railway; Yarmouth and Norwich Railway; Claughton-cum-Grange (St. Andrew's) Church; Claughton-cumGrange (St. John the Baptist's) Church. PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Nottingham, and 2 other places, against Increase of Grant to Maynooth College. -From Freemasons of the Church, founded for the Recovery, Maintenance, &c., of the Principles and Practice of Architecture, in favour of the Museums of Arts Bill. From County Ratepayers of Dufferin, against the Grand Jury Laws (Ireland).-From Tradesmen of Gravesend, for Repeal of 57th Clause of the Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment Act, except as to Debts not exceeding 51.-From University of Durham, for Exempting certain Charities from the provisions of the Charitable Trusts Bill.-From Minister of London Mariners' Church, Wellclose Square, for restoring that Church to the Use of British and Foreign Sailors, and Poor Danish Pensioners. THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE.] The Earl of Liverpool rose in his place and said: My Lords, in conformity with the Orders of the House, I waited on Her Majesty with the Address of the House, agreed to on the 16th of June, and Her Majesty was pleased to receive the same very graciously, and to say that she would give directions accordingly. SMALL DEBTS BILL (No. 2).] Lord Brougham brought in the Small Debts Bill again, with the omission of some words entitling the jailer to a fee of 1s., for administering an oath in the place of an attorney, objections having been made in the other House to this provision as an infraction of their privileges, which led to the loss of the Bill, Lord Portman thought it very fortunate that the other House had had the supervision of this clause, which would have introduced a very grave alteration in the law of the country. He objected to giving to a jailer the power of administering an affidavit. The clause had been put in between the third reading and the passing of the Bill, in a great hurry, and without being read in that House. Bill read 1a. COURTS OF COMMON LAW PROCESS BILLS.] Lord Campbell said, he had to move their Lordships that a Select Committee be appointed to search the Journals of the House of Commons to see what proceedings have taken place in that House, respecting the Courts of Common Law Process Bill, the Courts of Common Law Process (Ireland) Bill, and the Court of Session (Scotland) Process Bill. His strong suspicion was, that the Committee would report, that after these Bills were read a second time in the House of Commons, without opposition, the Committee on them was postponed without any discussion, for six months. He hoped their Lordships would allow him to recall to their recollection, in order that the public might be informed of it, what those Bills were. It might be supposed that those Bills were most highly unconstitutional, that they made an attack on private property, or, above all, that they assailed the independence of Ireland, and were meant to bring that country under subjection to this. Why, the great object of those Bills was, and he believed the effect of them would have been, to confer a very great benefit on Ireland, as well as on the whole of the United Kingdom. He (Lord Campbell) had been induced to turn his attention to the subject, from representations which had been made to him regarding it from various parts of Ireland; and the noble Lord opposite, who had been Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, was well aware that one of the worst effects of absenteeism in Ireland was, that persons of property who had large debts in Ireland left that country, and either settled in England, or went to France or Italy, where they set their creditors at defiance, and drew from Ireland, to England, France or Italy, the rents and profits which accrued to them from Irish property. At present their creditors, instead of suing them in the Irish courts, were debarred from doing so by the technical rule prevailing both in England and Ireland, that unless the debtor was within the jurisdiction of the court, he could not be served with process; while, without process, no judgment could be had, and without judgment they could not affect his property, real or personal. You might bring an action in France or England, but that did no good, because, with a French or English judgment, you could not touch the debtor's property in Ireland. The object of the Bill was, under the jurisdiction and direction of the Irish Judges, to allow that service given in England or France, or any other country, in a case respecting a debt contracted in Ireland by a person who had left it and was living in another country, might be the foundation of a judgment under which the property might be seized for the benefit of his creditors. The Bill was approved by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, the organ of the Government in that House; it was approved of by all the law and all the lay lords. There were two corresponding Bills, because in those cases there must be reciprocity; one respecting Scotland, and one respecting England, to ensure that justice should be done to Ireland, and that so far the laws of the three countries might be conciliated. These Bills had been approved of by Government, and passing that House unanimously; they were read a second time in the other House; but from the Journals of the House of Commons which he had before him, he found it was ordered by that honourable House that the Committee on those Bills should take place that day six months; that was, they were unceremoniously rejected. He (Lord Campbell) could have no feeling on the subject; it was not a party matter; but he must re gret, for the sake of the public, that mea-I sures so well considered, and, as he believed, having such a beneficial tendency, should be rejected without consideration. He regretted that Her Majesty's Government, in that House having warmly supported the Bills, in the other House should disclaim them, and allow them at once to meet their fate. He thought if Government supported a measure in one House of Parliament, that was an implied agreement that it should be supported in the other House. And he should have expected that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, who exercised a sort of control over those matters, would have risen in his place and stated that those measures were approved of by Government. At all events, they ought to have been submitted for the opinion of the House, and deliberately considered. He had done his duty, and he hoped that after this declaration it would not be supposed that the Bills contained any attack upon private property, or on the independence of the Irish people, and that he should be acquitted of all blame on account of those measures. He would conclude by formally moving that a Committee be appointed to search the Journals of the other House. The Lord Chancellor said, it was due to his noble and learned Friend to say that his Bills were approved of by that House, and had been under consideration both in the present and last Session of Parliament. In consequence of some difficulty with respect to the law of Scotland, they were not proceeded with last Session; but the Bill for Scotland was submitted to the consideration of the Lord Advocate during the present Session, and met with his approbation. He believed the real fact was, that his noble and learned Friend entrusted the Bills to a learned Friend in the other House, who never opened them, read them, or stated to the House what they contained, and sacrificed them to one or two jokes which passed at the time. When the House went into Committee upon them, a Motion was made and carried without discussion to fix the Committee for that day six months. He must at the same time say, that no imputation whatever rested upon the hon. Gentleman who had been alluded to-he believed him to be a most estimable person. Motion agreed to. BISHOPS' PATRONAGE (IRELAND) BILL.] Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read. Moved that the Bill be now read 2a. The Marquess of Clanricarde would request the right rev. Prelate, who had charge of the Bill which stood for a second reading to-night, to postpone the measure, which had only been presented to their Lordships on the 16th of June, and was one of the utmost importance. The Archbishop of Dublin had conceived that no opposition or objection whatever would have been offered to his proceeding with the Bill, because he could not conceive that any person could be averse to it, whose conduct was, as he believed that of the noble Marquess to be, and as he was bound to suppose that of every one of their Lordships to be, fair, and honourable, and upright. It would not put a stop in any way to proceedings against the bishops in Ireland in contests respecting rights of presentation; but it would enable them to lay on their successors the legal expenses to be incurred on their account. The whole object of the Bill was to prevent the bishops from being grievously impoverished, or deprived of their just rights. The principle was no other than that already affirmed by Act of Parliament, that the building of the parson's house or the see house, should be charged partly on the successors of those to whom they belonged for life. answer The Marquess of Clanricarde said, the right rev. Prelate had given an befitting the country of his adoption, and of his (the Marquess of Clanricarde's) parentage; for, having asked the right rev. Prelate to postpone his measure, he had entered into a long statement describing it. He should remind their Lordships that this Bill was only read a first time. on the 16th; and as no one but some of their Lordships especially interested had had time to read it, he should move that it be postponed until the 30th. The preamble went on the assumption that the lay patrons were the aggressors, whereas almost in every case they had succeeded in the lawsuits with the bishops. Besides, why should not the owner of an estate strictly entailed, be allowed to charge the expenses of such lawsuits on his heir, if the bishop was allowed to do so as to his successor? The Earl of Wicklow doubted whether the noble Marquess could give better rea |