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GENERAL TESTIMONY

ESTABLISHING THE FACT OF THE EXISTENCE OF CHILD LABOR IN THE STATE.

In the investigation of the subject of child labor in this State difficulties have arisen in the way of gathering "statistics," both from the indifference of those who were supposed to be most interested in throwing light on this subject and from the lack of sufficient authority on the part of the Commissioner of the bureau to enter factories and tenement-houses in which children were known or supposed to be employed, and thereby gain ocular proof of the facts to be recorded.

At the outset of the investigation a secretary of a cigarmakers' trades union in the city of New York entered a tenement-house owned by Lichtenstein & Co., cigar manufacturers, and was proceeding to interrogate the inmates, who are mostly Bohemians, when he was forcibly ejected. He had his assailant arrested, and on the trial before Police Justice Powers, the Cigar Manufacturers' Association, through their counsel, sought to show that the complainant was not empowered to enter any factory without the permission of In this the police justice concurred, and dismissed the

the owner.

case.

Thus, at the start, was the work of the agents of the bureau hindered, and whatever statistics have been secured of the existence of child labor in that city are meagre and unsatisfactory, although sufficient to show that, in various lines of industries, the labor of children under fourteen years of age is made use of. Accurate statistics can only be obtained by a thorough census, which should be taken at stated intervals and be under the supervision of this bureau. This could not, of course, be accomplished without the expenditure of a considerable sum of money; but the benefits accruing to the industries of the State-agricultural and commercial, as well as mechanical - would more than compensate for that outlay, for I hold that on accurate and positive knowledge alone, can intelligent legislation be based.

TESTIMONY.

David A. Johnston, General Superintendent, Harmony Mills, Cohoes, New York, produced as a witness, testified:

Q. You have a number of children employed in these mills? A. Yes, sir.

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Q. The number of hours of labor per day is about eleven? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you believe it detrimental to the health of children to work that many hours? A. No, not where the rooms are well ventilated and where proper attention is paid to them.

Q. Do you believe it to be injurious to their morals? A. No, sir; on the contrary I believe they are subserved by being under constant restraint and by being watched over by respectable overseers. Q. Do you say you have all the facilities for escape in case of fire, that are necessary? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you think that children by working less hours in a day and having more time to devote to education would make better men and women? A. If they could be properly fed and properly housed and properly clothed, I should say yes; but taking the condition of things as they exist and their necessities, I think a condition where they can earn their living, and help to support each other and get good places like ours in which to be housed, that they are better off. Q. Would you be in favor of shortening the hours of labor? A. I should have no objection to it.

Q. Are you familiar with the English system? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think it would be a good thing for children here? A. I do I think for children the half-time system is good, and compulsory education should go with it.

Q. You are in favor of the Compulsory Education law being carried out? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you would do what you could to help carry out that law? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You stated to me the other day that there were night schools here? A. Yes, sir.

Q. But the children do not all attend? A. Not many felt an interest in it, and I do not think it is watched closely enough to see that those for whom it is intended are reached.

Q. Others than those for whom it was intended get the benefit then? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you think if the children worked less hours a day, that they would feel more like attending? A. No, I believe as far as that is concerned, that in this changeable climate, say in such inclement weather, say when it is like it is now outside, these children, if they were out, would be running around, and would be less inclined to go to school.

Q. In your observations do you find any difference as to health between children who commenced working in the factory at an early age and those who were outside and commenced working later? A. You will find that a good deal like a person getting acclimated; those who have developed out of doors, go down more rapidly in doors when they get grown than those brought up in the factories; there are so many circumstances that influence these things; now I have noticed a strange thing; families come here from Ireland, and the girls are as healthy and rugged and rosy-cheeked as you

would ever see, and yet in two years the girls would be in consumption, and half the family would be gone in seven years.

Q. You find it different with the children who are brought up in the mills? A. I believe the houses they live in and the care they get at home has more to do with it than any work they do in the mills.

Q. Are the tenement houses that your employees live in considered healthy? A. Yes, sir; that is where we have the advantage of most everybody else; the boys and girls can be kept separate, and there is a room for the father and mother; in this way we avoid this promiscuous business; a family came here from Albany three weeks ago; one of the girls came here first; she was about fourteen years old; she wanted to get into the mill; she said "we are getting grown up now and want to help father and mother, and I want to work in the mill, if you can give us a tenement-house so we can move up here;" I had none; afterward the mother came up with her; I asked her how much of a family she had, and she said seven children; she says, we do not want a large house; she said they had three rooms in Albany; I asked her how she got along with three rooms, and she said, "after the day's work is done in the kitchen, we let down two or three beds in the kitchen, and sleep in it;" I would not let a family live in such a way as that; I gave her a house with five rooms and charged her $6.50 a month.

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Q. The children who come here without parents the younger girls-you have separate boarding-houses for them? A. Yes, sir; we have four boarding-houses that are under the control of the mill, where we regulate the price for board and the conditions governing them, and they go down there and find board and comply with certain regulations; we have between 250 and 260 boarders in those houses.

Q. In going through the mills I find that the children are principally at work on the upper floors? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there any way you could manage your building so that these children could be put to work on the lower floors? A. We have one or two rooms of lighter machinery on the lower floors, but the swaying and swinging of the looms sways and swings the floors they are on, and it must be nearer the ground on account of the agitation of the building.

Q. To have that machinery on the upper floors would sway the building too much?

A. Yes; it sways the floors, and when you come to it there are more people working on the first and second floors than on any of the others, and they are mostly old people; they would have to go up these flights of stairs, and the children are better able to go up there than these older people.

Q. If you were to change this machinery around it would injure the building? A. It is not so much that, but it would injure the machinery's running.

Q. I suppose here, as under the English laws, you would not take any children that you considered unhealthy? A. No.

Q. I do not refer to contagious diseases? A. No; we avoid taking unhealthy children, for it is an injury to us; if they are sick, we have to get some one to take their place; if we find any of them are sick almost all the time, it is an easy matter for the overseer to say that there is no more work for them.

Q. I suppose many of the children are employed, not for the money to be made by you, but to accommodate some one? A. No, I would not want to say that.

Q. By employing older persons you might make more money? A. If any thing, it would be to our advantage to employ older and larger help; as you noticed, in some of the rooms, half were large hands, and they do twice as much work; they are more steady at their work, and it is not so much trouble to take care of them.

Q. Do you find or know of any cases where children are employed in your mill, whose parents are idle and depend on the earnings of the children for a livelihood,- that is, parents who are able to work and do not? A. Yes, sir; there are a good many, and the children are worse off than if they were orphans; they would be better off without any parents, and it is all on account of that infernal drinking.

Q. You lay it all to intemperance? A. Yes, sir; the poverty of the people in these families we have a good many families who could not live three days without orders; they cannot get trusted for they never pay; if they get any money, they go and buy drink with it; when they come here they are as poor as poverty's big toe; we advance their fare here many times; these people cannot wait until pay day, but want an order for $1, $2, $3, $4 or $5; we give these orders, but will not give an order on any store that sells rum, wine or beer; we cash these orders every four weeks; we see that they get things at the lowest cash prices, and their orders are consequently as good as cash; nine-tenths of these families have to live on orders; it is just on account of this infernal drinking, and if they get a few cents they get rum; women with children drink it to make milk, and what kind of milk will it make? That is where they get their appetite from; I believe a child will nurse it from its mother.

Q. Do you find a great deal of intemperance? A. I do not think we have any more than you find among the working class generally, but it is a great evil; the greater part of their poverty is due directly or indirectly to drinking somewhere in the family; a case came to my notice the other day through the man who has charge of my tenements; there was a family- the husband works in the mill, and is really a steady fellow, and has three or four children, but his wife - well, she will buy rum; she took no pains with the house, and it was certainly the dirtiest house you ever saw in your life; what an influence for these children growing up! That woman is a perfect slave to drink; when our attention was called to the condition of things we investigated them; a

child was sick in the cradle, and I do not believe it had been washed in three months.

Q. Did that state of things exist in one of your tenement-houses? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What action did you take? A. I decided to give her one more chance; we sent a woman, however, to clean up the house.

Q. Now as to the care of children in the factories-you do not allow any abuse of children in the factories by overseers? A. No, sir; we have discharged two such in twelve months for abusing children; you know, of course, that there are forty or fifty overseers and 3,000 or 4,000 people, and there will be some things that will seem to be abuses and you do not learn of it, but such cases cannot go long without we do hear of it; I leave myself open to hear complaints from any of my employees, and especially from children.

Q. If a child comes with a complaint, or any person, you investigate it? A. Yes, sir; always.

Q. You say you have discharged overseers for maltreatment of children? A. We discharged second overseers.

Q. If there is any information you can give or that ought to be given you will freely impart it? A. Yes, sir; I will always be ready to hear what is to be said and to hear recommendations, and if there is any thing good I am ready to take it up, and if there are any real abuses I want to know what they are; while I do not know all that is going on here in the mills all the time, yet some one has got to be responsible for it, and I hold myself responsible and so I can give any information about the work inside or out, and give correct information which other people might not; you need not ask any thing about the hours of labor; the rules hang up in every room; two or more of them, both in French and English, and everybody that goes into the mill can read them; we have got to get out good work and do it as cheap as we can, for otherwise there would be no work here and the shops would have to be shut up.

Matthew B. Smith, produced as a witness, testified:

Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a police sergeant.

Q. You have been connected with the police force of this city since when? A. June 10, 1869.

Q. The parties working in the mills have been somewhat under your observation? A. Yes; I worked in the mills myself, previous to coming on the force here.

Q. Do you believe labor in the mills has any effect on the morals of the children? A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. Do you think it has any effect on the health of the children in after life? A. You take a child that is well fed and well clothed and with a good home, and I do not think mill work would injure them one particle.

Q. You think then that the home influences have a greater tendency in shaping the morals of children than the influences brought

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