gether, and which had struck him only that morning. It was this, "oil and gas lights for the Houses of Parliament, and St. Martin's public baths and washhouses.' It was all carried out in one sum. The hon. Member also objected to many items of the estimates, that they concerned the private expenses of the Royal Family. He knew there was no one so ill served, and no one so grossly cheated with things which they were pledged to pay for, as the Crown. Some years ago he had been at Windsor, and he there saw a stable which had been built for Her Majesty, and which was not larger than many similar buildings belonging to noblemen. He inquired the cost, and was told that it was 70,000l. He believed any one would have paid dearly for them at half the money. mates were not presented in detail to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) before they were first presented to the Committee. When they came before him he pared them down, and he thought he might have credit for the pretty vigilant control which he had exercised; and almost the first thing he had attended to was the sums charged upon the Consolidated Fund. But the pressure of Irish affairs, and the business of Ministers in that House, had so occupied their attention, as nearly to prevent them attending to anything else. With regard to any particular items on which special information should be required, he thought it better and more satisfactory that they should be dealt with separately, than alluded to in any general statement. That was the mode in which the miscellaneous estimates had been hitherto always treated, and it was the only way in which they could be properly dealt with. And he, and the Under Secretary to the Treasury would be, he trusted, found prepared to give the utmost satisfaction on each item as it should be brought forward. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, with regard to the observations of the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesex, must say, that in his experience of Parliament, which was somewhat longer than that of the hon. and gallant Officer, he had never heard of a Minister or a Chancellor of the Exchequer coming down to that House and making a statement on DR. BOWRING said, he wished, as a the miscellaneous estimates. There were Member of the Committee, to explain that no less than 113 different items in the there was no part of the estimates in estimate he held in his hand; and it would which it was possible for the Committee be impossible to make any general state- to have entered into details. Under each ment with regard to them. As to the re- head there were ten or twenty different mark of the hon. Member for West Sur- topics that ought to be inquired into. rey, there were items still more dissimilar There were in all, he believed, 116 special in character than those he had mentioned subjects referred to the Committee; and to be found classed together. But had of these there were sixty or seventy that the hon. Gentleman exercised a little of would each have required all the time that that common sense for which his speeches the Committee had been able to devote were generally distinguished, he would to their whole task. The inquiry had have seen that they were by no means so served to convince him the more strongly incongruous as at first sight might be of the truth of Lord Congleton's remark, imagined. As to the report of the Com- that until Parliament were able to control mittee of which his right hon. Friend be- the whole amount of the public expendihind him (Mr. V. Smith) had been Chair- ture, and got possession of the whole of man, he thought it of considerable value. the public receipts, financial reform on a But he candidly admitted that out of the grand scale could not possibly be effected. mass of matter presented to them for con- Under the circumstances the Committee sideration, it would have been impossible could not possibly have produced a satisfor them to have made a perfect proposi- factory report. In the item before the tion. Still it was quite clear that a great House, for instance, how were they to reduction of expenditure might be made know how much of the vote should be by the Executive Government. And he given for Buckingham Palace, and how (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had much for Windsor or other royal resisaid, when moving the appointment of the dences? If they could have visited the Committee, that that appointment would localities, and looked into the contracts, not relieve the Government from their re- they would have made their report more sponsibility. With regard to the checks satisfactory to themselves and to the that should be exercised by the Treasury, House. They were thus necessarily comhe observed that the miscellaneous esti-pelled to leave the details in the hands of that might be required upon each particular item. It was very proper, however, with regard to the Admiralty, as the expenditure in that department affected a great branch of the public service. If, however, they attempted to go through an introductory explanation of the various items of the miscellaneous estimates, it would involve considerable delay, as the heads of several departments, as well as his hon. Friend the Secretary for the Treasury, would have to enter into explanations. The hon. Gentleman had complained that a number of votes was placed on the Consolidated Fund which ought to have been inserted in the estimates. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already stated that during the vacation he would consider the votes which should be placed on the estimates, and the charges which should remain on the Consolidated Fund. He thought that it would be unadvisable that they should at present do more than proceed to consider the different items in the estimates, instead of calling for general explanations from each department. The hon. Gentleman had said that each vote should be more fully considered; but at this period of the Session, with the number of Bills which they had before them, as well as other business which hon. Members brought forward, he did not conceive that there would be time to carry any measure if in every instance they were to stop for consideration. With respect to salaries, in 1831 a Committee sat on this subject, and he thought that they had settled the matter in a satisfactory manner. the Executive. The persons who came be- | the Navy Estimates, as the former involvfore all such Committees were invariably ed so much matter of detail, so that it the officials who were desirous of get- would be better to give every explanation ting the full amount of their estimates. The details were thus thrown upon the Treasury, which was overwhelmed with work, and unable to devote the necessary attention to them. The right hon. Baronet had admitted that evening, that for the last two years the Treasury had been absolutely broken down with business that poured upon it from Ireland. Another great evil was the absence of any central accountancy. There were no books existing to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could refer, in which he would find the whole receipts and expenditure of his department set forth, as a banker or merchant would have for his private business. Parliament ought to have before it the whole receipts of the year in every department, including the expenses of collection and the amount of fees received in the courts of law and elsewhere. Such a system ought to be introduced, and it should be a rule that none of the receipts could be applied to any purpose whatever without the previous sanction of Parliament being obtained. While making these remarks, he begged to say that he should be unworthy of a seat in that House, unless he bore testimony to the great kindness and attention shown by his right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Committee throughout the inquiry, and to the willingness with which he had listened to every suggestion that had been thrown out by the other Members. But still there was no denying but that the report, as regarded its practical results, was most unsatisfactory. It was so, however, not from any fault of the Committee, or from any failure or inattention on the part of the Chairman, but from the impossibility of going into the details. On some of the subjects that had been referred to them, separate Committees had been appointed; and on others, more especially on the whole question of the Exchequer, he hoped that a full investigation would be instituted. However unsatisfactory the report of the present Committee might be, there were, at all events, some important improvements suggested in it which he hoped would not be lost sight of. LORD JOHN RUSSELL did not think that it would be a convenient course, with respect to the miscellaneous estimates, to follow the example of his hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, as regarded VOL. CI. Third 1 Series MR. BANKES said, that the House was not to blame that there was a delay in voting the estimates, for the Govern ment had taken their own course as to the time of bringing them forward. He should dismiss all complaints as to the delay created by objections, as if the estimates had been brought forward in the month of February instead of the month of August. Among other charges, he found one for the Pavilion at Brighton; but every one knew that it was no longer in a condition for the residence of the Royal Family; and certainly, from what passed some time ago they ought to have reason to believe that that property would be made a matter of revenue instead of expense. Then, again, the charge for providing temporary accom E modation for the Houses of Parliament appeared to be most enormous. He found that one of the charges was "for the probable expense that will be incurred for taking up haircloth, mats, &c., and cleaning dirt from under the House, which will be required from time to time to make good what is worn out, 1,150l. ;" and this, with the hire of chandeliers for the temporary residence of the Speaker, amounted to 1,4107. Then, again, the Government were taking into their occupation large houses in the neighbourhood of the Houses of Parliament. Such was the case with Gwydyr House, and several other mansions formerly occupied by noblemen. No adequate advantage to the public was derived from the occupation of such places. The whole matter involved a series of expenditure which might be checked without the slightest injury to the public service. VISCOUNT MORPETH agreed in the report of the Select Committee, that all the particular buildings which were the subject of this vote should be enumerated, and that they should put down the specific sum allotted to each of the Royal Palaces, so that the House might know what sums were expended for the comfort and accommodation of Her Majesty, and what for the innocent recreation and enjoyment of Her subjects in those places which were thrown open to the public. With respect to the Pavilion at Brighton, it was not intended to expend upon that building any more than was necessary to keep it tight, and to keep the rain out. It was now cleared of all its furniture, and the Office of Woods and Forests had called for and obtained a report upon the best mode of disposing of the site. It appeared that there was some difficulty in giving a proper title, which might render the intervention of Parliament necessary. An undertaking was on foot to repair the very interesting and beautiful ruin of Lanercost Abbey, in Cumberland, with a view of preserving from ultimate ruin and decay this, among other interesting specimens of antiquity in the possession of the Crown. A small sum was therefore voted in aid for the repair of Lanercost Abbey; and it was intended, also, to vote a small sum for Carisbrooke Castle and Caernarvon Castle. With reference to the number of buildings engaged for the accommodation of the different offices and commissions, for which rent was paid, it did amount to a great sum, because the increasing business of the country required an additional number of buildings devoted to these purposes. It was thought necessary that these offices and houses should be in the vicinity of the Houses of Parliament; and the houses in that neighbourhood, as they all knew, fetched a much greater rent than in the remoter parts of the town. A large sum was annually demanded for the expenses of these offices and commissions, and he sometimes felt that the vacant space of ground near the Foreign Office would be well devoted to an edifice capable of accommodating in a simple and substantial manner these various offices and commissions. In the present state of the finances, however, it would not perhaps be advisable to incur the expense of such a building nów, whatever the ultimate saving of such an edifice would be. It was not, therefore, thought right to propose a large sum for any building not absolutely required; and it was considered better for the present to go on paying rent for the houses required for offices and commissions. de SIR R. H. INGLIS thought it very sirable that the large and at present unsightly area on the south side of Downingstreet should be appropriated for the erection of a plain, solid, substantial building, for all the commissions appointed, so that it should not be necessary to have recourse to the occupation of houses in Georgestreet, or elsewhere, for them. There ought also to be a building more worthy of the important business transacted in the Foreign and Colonial Offices; it was to be hoped it was not generally known that the Foreign Office of England consisted of five separate private dwelling-houses, in such a ruinous state that the documents of the department had to be removed a floor lower because the weight of them would hazard the stability of the building. Vote agreed to. Other votes agreed to. House resumed. Committee to sit again. House adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, August 14, 1848. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1 Fisheries (Ireland); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Poor Law Union District Schools; Money Order Department (Post Office); Borough Incorporation. 2a Parliamentary Electors; Proclamations on Fines (Court of Common Pleas); Churches; Turnpike Roads (Ireland); Constabulary Force (Ireland). Reported. Unlawful Oaths Acts (Ireland) (Continuance and Amendment); Reproductive Loan Fund Institution (Ireland); Militia Ballots Suspension. 3a and passed:- Bankrupts' Release; Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction; Loan Societies; Highway Rates. 101 Unlawful Oaths Act {AUG. 14} (Ireland) Continuance, &c. 102 India Islands Relief; Administration of Justice (No. 1); Justice; Canada Union Act Amendment; Joint Stock Royal Assent.-Rum Duties; Assignment of Ecclesiastical system of which this present Bill seems to Quadrant Colonnade; Exchange of Advowsons in the siastical Patronage between Her Majesty and the Earl of land); Juvenile Offenders (Ireland); Law of Entail PETITIONS PResented. From the County of Mayo, and Ireland. From the Clergy of the Diocese of Armagh, town, complaining of the Closing of the Railway Station, and praying for Relief. UNLAWFUL OATHS ACT (IRELAND) CON TINUANCE AND AMENDMENT BILL. On the Motion that the House be put in Committee, The EARL of SHREWSBURY: My Lords, as the observations I have to make in accordance with the notice which I gave, apply most particularly to the principle of this Bill, and to the circumstances which it regards, I trust your Lordships will now bear with me for a few moments whilst I very briefly state my impressions on the past and present policy towards Ireland. No one will rejoice more than I shall, if, in some respects, those impressions may be shown to be erroneous. proposed, still, whilst we were fulminating our anathemas, and very justly so, against the treason and the traitor, yet I felt that we were bound to exhibit at least an equal degree of alacrity in searching out the causes of that awful mischief with which we were about to grapple, and with which we have still to grapple-for though the rebellion be subdued, the disaffection and excitement remains-and at the same time to begin to apply a sound and permanent remedy to the evil; for, my Lords, I will not believe that these things can exist without a cause, or that that cause is beyond the reach of legislation. My Lords, if others have the power to hurt, we have the power to heal; or we are worthless. When one comes, then, to consider why it is that these unusual and restrictive measures are for ever necessary in Ireland, one cannot but attribute it to that same pervading and perpetual cause of all the miseries of that afflicted country-to that very cause itself-namely, that in Ireland there ever has been, and still is, a government of force instead of a government of opinion. Such, my Lords, was the deliberate opinion of the present Prime Minister of the Crown, and solemnly delivered as such, on the 13th of February 1844. Can any one in his senses form any other In the first place, my Lords, allow me judgment now? We have now precisely to add my tribute of respect and admira-almost precisely-the same state of tion for the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant things as we had then; can any one wonthroughout the whole course of his arduous der we have the same results? Yes, my administration—a conduct, I think, the Lords, Ireland is still occupied, not gobest that could have been pursued, since it verned. Nay, since that period, the numwas a course of beneficence, peace, and ber of Coercion Bills has been gradually conciliation, deserving of a very different increased, the number of troops has been reward. My Lords, if ever a doubt crossed greatly augmented, the law has all along my mind upon the subject, certainly it was been still more frequently enforced at the not as to the just and liberal views and point of the bayonet, till now, the whole kindly disposition of Lord Clarendon-country is a garrison, the last remnant of quite the contrary; it was whether his forbearance were not excessive, and whether those same measures of repression which were at length resorted to might not have been still more advantageously employed at a still earlier period. Concurring, then, as I did, in the necessity of a system of immediate and determined repression-a her liberties has been struck down, and that terrible outbreak which was then only foreshadowed in the distance, has actually come to pass; that is, terrible it would have been had it not prematurely exploded, and been crushed in the outset. Her municipal rights, her elective franchise, her Parliamentary representation, that baneful competition for land on the part of the poor, that temptation to and facility for eviction on the part of the landlord-those prolific sources of crime and misery-that enormous amount of waste and unprofitable land within reach of an idle, teeming, and famishing population-the state of her grand jury laws, by which much of that evil might be remedied-the comparatively neglected condition of mines and fisheries -in fine, every grievance, both social and political, remains almost precisely where it was. We have had, too, the same system of Government prosecutions, quite necessary under the circumstances. I am not complaining of it, I only state it as a fact; but we have had the same system of Government prosecutions backed by the same system of jury packing, quite necessary also, if a conviction were to be expected, and as is again proved by the news of this very morning. Neither do I complain of that; but of this I do complain, that upon all these questions the feelings, and desires, and interests, and opinions of the people, have produced no effect; but one and all they remain almost precisely where they were when they were brought forward by the present Premier and his Colleagues, as so many proofs that in Ireland there was only a government of force; from which no good could come, instead of a government of opinion, from which all might be expected. The only change-the only material change that has taken place, has been by the passing of the new poor-law. That, my Lords, was a well-intentioned and beneficent measure, as were all the temporary measures which accompanied it, which did infinite credit to the Government and the Parliament, and merited a much better return. But the law itself, I think, in many cases inflicts a cruel injustice on the landlords, and a still more cruel injustice on the poor. In many cases, the poorrates absorb, or very nearly absorb, the whole of the rental: can it then be just thus to confiscate any man's property for the fulfilment of an obligation which, under the circumstances-and I do not stand singly in this opinion-ought, I think, to fall on the community in general? for the consequence of the present state of things is, that war is made upon the poor; for either the landlord must be ruined, or the poor must be exterminated. But, singular inconsistency in a law which professes to be an assimilation to the law of England!-the poor of Ireland are by law debarred from the enjoyment of the right which is undoubtedly by law conferred upon the poor of England-the right to subsistence. And it is notorious that very many of the poor of Ireland have perished miserably of absolute want; that they still continue so to perish, and with another potato famine staring them in the face. Many too have perished, and still continue to perish, by slow degrees, from insufficiency of food. Why, my Lords, one of the poor creatures killed the other day, near Ballingarry, was an ablebodied man, hired to break stones along the roadside for only one pound of meal per day for himself and his wife! No wonder, then, that he was so readily turned into a rebel. But most of all do they seem to have perished who were so barbarously and inhumanly evicted-evicted under sanction of the law, and often at the point of the bayonet, and driven helpless on a world in which they had no legal right to relief, and in which no preparation had been made to receive them in their distress! My Lords, it is in this state of things, and not in the preaching and teaching of sedition, that the danger lies; because justice has not been done; because those remedial measures recommended by some twenty different Parliamentary Committees, and Royal Commissions; recommended by every statistical and political writer for the last fifty years; many of them solicited, and still solicited by almost every grand jury in Ireland-measures so strenuously insisted on by the noble Lord at the head of the Government on the 13th of February, 1844; so earnestly re-insisted upon on the 15th of June, 1846; and promised-many of them promised-on the 16th of July of the same year; because these remedial measures have never yet been carried into execution, therefore the discontent, therefore the agitation, therefore the rebellion: because of the agitation want of confidence, want of capital, want of employment. In fine, the whole question resolves itself into this, and for this also I have the authority of the Prime Minister of the Crown, that up to this very day the promises and conditions of the Union have never yet been fulfilled, but there still is in Ireland a Government of force instead of a Government of opinion. Hence the disaffection, hence the rebellion. But, my Lords, there is still another and a master grievance behind, and for this too I have the authority of the noble Lord at the head of the Government-and |