House resumed. The Committee to sit again.

THE SLAVE TRADE IN MUSSULMAN

COUNTRIES.

On the Motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, to go into Committee of Supply,

MR. URQUHART moved

"That, from the Correspondence laid upon the table of this House in reference to the suppression of the Slave Trade in Mussulman Countries, it appears that Her Majesty's Servants have adopted proceedings calculated to aggravate the horrors of the Traffic, and to alienate from this Country the good-will of the Governments and

Nations so interfered with."

British interference in the quarrels of ber of slaves so large, that universal conNaples and Sicily would not tend to ren- fusion would necessarily follow any attempt der this country popular in Italy. We to change the general system; and Lord should be there encountered by the charge Ponsonby further added, that he feared of interfering in the concerns of Italy, not that the attempt to abolish slavery might for the purpose of exercising over them give offence, if urged forward with imporsuch a moral influence as England ought tunity. He (Mr. Urquhart) thought that to exercise over the world, but rather for if ever philanthropy, in its wildest crusade, the purpose of gratifying our ambition, and could have met with a rebuff which would getting possession of Italy. destroy its illusions, it would be in the reply of Lord Ponsonby. The philanthropy of this country was not to be arrested by reason, nor its folly by argument; and, consequently, these attempts were persevered in. They were at first confined to representations of the evils of the slave trade, and a request that some of its abuses might be modified. So far as these negotiations went, he should abstain from entering upon them, or their success; but he would state that the Turkish Government made no concession; and, in reply to the noble Lord, it stated that it could not give way, as it considered the slave trade perfectly legal. The expression of Lord Cowley, in his letter of December 17, 1847, distinctly conveyed that in the opinion of the Turkish Government this trade was quite legal; and further informed the Government that no obstruction whatever was placed by the Turkish Government in the way of that trade. With regard to Persia, it would be found, from despatches sent to Lord Palmerston, that the Shah of Persia awaited the result of the application made to the Porte before taking any decided step in the matter. In the first despatch it would be seen that the English Government rested its application upon the condition that the Turkish Government should accede to their request in the first instance; and in the next despatch, the representative of England in Turkey informed the noble Lord that he founded his hopes of obtaining some concession from the Shah upon the consent of the Turkish Government to the request made by the British Government. In an enclosure in the same despatch there was a document from the Minister of the country to our representative, discussing the question upon its merits, and stating that the slave trade was not so much a matter affecting our law as our religion. The reply of our representative expressed a distinct threat, by stating that, if the Persian ships proceeded to the coast of Africa to engage in this trade, they would suffer loss; clearly referring to the risk of confiscation by the

In introducing this Motion, he would state to the House that there was a very essential difference between slavery in the East and slavery in the West; and, taking the contrast presented by the two systems of slavery into consideration, it would be seen that a very gross abuse had been introduced into that House, and had been sanetioned by it. He knew the feelings and habits of Eastern countries, and he could appreciate the offensive character of our intervention. The case which he had to submit was, that a Government of this country had attempted to interfere with the slave trade in a manner which was opposed to the laws and customs of other lands.

The Government had gone the length of threatening with confiscation the property of those countries who pursued that trade, and it had even stated that the abolition of the slave trade was the interest of Islamism. There had been a communication sent from the Anti-Slave Trade Society to the representative of Great Britain in Turkey on this subject; and that communication, the Ambassador sent a letter stating that since that House was about to sanction this interference, he might mention some circumstances with reference to the opinions of the principal persons in Turkey on the subject. The consideration with which slaves were treated in Turkey was so great, and the num- English Government.

upon

The course which

It is

had been pursued prostituted our diplo- position which he begged to submit to the macy to the purposes of an unreasonable House. fanaticism, and to an endeavour to force upon others opinions which we entertained contrary to their customs and belief. He then came to a further portion of the correspondence. In an enclosure of a despatch of 1847, they would find what was called a pledge, on the part of the Persian Government, to follow the decision of Turkey. On reference to the document, however, it would be found that the agent of the British Government merely felt himself warranted in stating that the example of the Porte would be followed by the Shah. The question, however, took a very different shape. The remonstrance addressed by the British Government against slavery was presented to a slave -for the Foreign Minister of Turkey was himself a slave-and with what ear could he listen to such a remonstrance? Why, in the East the punishment reserved for slaves was that of manumission. That was of course incomprehensible to us, with our ideas of Christianity and civilisation; but in the countries of the East slavery was a condition limited and defined by law, in which the duties of religion were prescribed and observed, and the persons subjected to the redemption from the power and protection of their masters were considered to suffer the greatest misfortune and reproach. In Turkey and Persia no one sold a slave without a character of reproach attaching to him; but this did not interfere with the legality of the condition of slavery. The noble Viscount's instructions on this head had led to a tedious, useless, and undignified correspondence between the British Ambassador in Persia and the Persian Government, full of inconsistencies and contradictions, in which the most extraordinary assertions were made. The British Minister declared to the Government of the Shah that Turkey had come to an agreement to abolish the slave trade—a statement which was quite without foundation. It was an indubitable fact that the intervention of England on the coasts of Arabia and Persia to put down the slave trade would be impossible, unless we chose to carry there another African squadron. The policy of the Government in that part of the world had only been to rouse the hostility of the people of those countries, who were strongly attached to the institution of slavery. And for these and other causes he had named, he now asked the House to affirm the pro

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The hon. Member has stated that he and I differ very widely on questions of foreign policy. You are very well aware we do, and never were we more completely at issue than, as is evident from his speech of this evening, we are upon the present question. quite clear, from the speech of the hon. Member, that whether because of a peculiarity in his natural disposition, or owing to habitual associations with a long residence in Eastern countries, that the hon. Member is quite enamoured with the institution of domestic slavery. Now, here there is an inexorable difference between him and me. I own I have a great, an unmitigable detestation of all slavery whatsoever, whetner that of the domestic slave or the field labourer; and while I admit that the constitution of that bondage to which the domestic slave is subjected differs from that which the field slave has to endure, I nevertheless maintain that the crimes and the horrors which are perpetrated in bringing both the one and the other into the market, are in each case exactly the same. Therefore, although the considerations of humanity which urge us to prevent domestic slavery may not be quite as numerous as those which impel us to discourage the other description of bondage, there is in point of fact as strong a motive of benevolence in the one case as in the other. The hon. Member disapproves of the course of policy we have adopted with reference to the suppression of the slave trade in the Eastern countries. I am surprised that, in speaking of lands in which he passed, as he has often given us to understand, so many pleasant hours, nay, days and years, he did not think fit to include them in the category of cultivated nations. Yet, so it is. After his long and close intimacy with them, the hon. Member regards them and speaks of them as mere and absolute barbarians. With reference to the spirit of the addresses which have been adopted by Parliament with respect to the slave trade, I regret that I cannot agree with the hon. Member. Neither can I agree with him in his interpretation of the general wish of the English people on the subject of slavery. It is my impression that that wish is adverse to slavery. I think it is almost universally so; but, nevertheless, there may be, and, indeed, I now find that there is, an exception. To endeavour to

persuade all nations, as well Mahometan | ment; but I take leave to say that there as Christian, to put an end to slavery, was such a promise, and Colonel Sheil has has long been a cherished object with the not ceased to claim the faithful performance British Government. The first country to of it. The hon. Member has carried the which we addressed ourselves in the fur- history of the transactions between us therance of that object was Tunis, and we and the Persians to that point at which he were successful. The Bey of Tunis agreed says that there is no alternative but that with the English Government not only to the Persian Government will accept the abolish the slave trade, but to put an end quarrel which he says we have prepared to the "institution" of slavery altogether. for them, and throw themselves into the There we gained a triumph, which the arms of Russia, rather than comply with hon. Member has proved to demonstration our request. The hon. Member has built to have been wholly impossible in a Ma- up the turris excelsa tabulæ, and he would hometan country, for the Bey of Tunis have it that debent esse altiores. He arhas by law acknowledged the extinction of gues at very great length, and with very slavery. We next addressed ourselves to great labour, that it is impossible that the Sultan. At first we apprehended that it Persia can make any arrangement with was not at all likely that we should succeed England for the suppression of the slave in our efforts to induce him to restrain and trade. Nevertheless, she has done so. prevent the traffic in slaves amongst his Had the hon. Member taken the pains to subjects; but we were agreeably deceived, consult the documents which were laid befor after long and painful endeavours, we fore the Slave Trade Committee, he would did at length succeed in inducing him to have seen there a communication, by which issue a firman prohibiting the slave trade it is intimated that since the close of the in the eastern seas. The next Mussulman correspondence from which he has quoted, potentate to whom we applied was the the Shah has issued a firman to prevent Imaum of Muscat, under whose authority his subjects from carrying on the slave the slave trade was conducted at sea in a trade. I will content myself with these manner peculiarly barbarous and revolting, statements, which I think satisfactorily which led to a lavish sacrifice of human prove that we have taken measures to prolife. With that prince also we have been vide against the calamity with which the to some extent successful, for he, too, has hon. Member has threatened us. With reissued firmans preventing his subjects, with gard to what the hon. Member has said as certain limits, from trafficking in the slave to the operations against Herat and the trade. We then addressed ourselves to Affghan expedition, I think it only necesthe Arab chiefs in the Persian Gulf and sary to remind the House that we have the neighbouring coasts, and with them we the admission of the hon. Member himself made treaties, by which they engaged that our policy in that case was quite dethemselves not to carry on the slave trade. fensible, inasmuch as that the Persian exWe then went to Persia. The hon. Mem- pedition against Herat was in point of fact ber read long extracts from the correspon- an attack upon our Indian possessions. I dence which passed on this subject between am happy to have the acknowledgment of the Governments of England and of Per- the hon. Member that we were right in sia. I cannot say that I at all regret his our views of the danger which then imhaving made such copious extracts from pended, and that consequently we were the despatches of Colonel Sheil; for that justified in the course which we adopted officer has uniformly discharged his duties upon that occasion. With these observain the most exemplary manner; and I am tions I will leave the Motion in the hands sure that the more his despatches become of the House. known, the greater the credit they will reflect upon him. Colonel Sheil laboured long, and with great assiduity, to persuade the Persian Government to follow the example of the Sultan of Turkey, the Imaum of Muscat, and the Arab chiefs, by taking effective measures to prevent the subjects of the Shah from carrying on the slave trade. The hon. Member roundly asserts that there was no promise to that effect on the part of the Persian Govern

LORD G. BENTINCK observed, that during the last fourteen years the English Government had been instrumental in greatly aggravating the sufferings of from 80,000 to 100,000 human beings. These poor creatures had, by our laws, been made to endure great torture by reason of the overcrowding of ships, and want of water. He feared, moreover, that he should be justified in asserting that there were no two persons in the empire who had

ever. He trusted that the case of Colonel Bristow would not be allowed to slumber. SIR DE LACY EVANS said, those who had followed the course of events between this country and Spain, must be perfectly convinced that the final and complete rupture which had taken place beSUPPLY-MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES tween the two Courts was in a large de

MR. OSBORNE contended that the intervention of England in the affairs of Portugal had certainly not given free institutions to that country, but had entailed an expense upon England the items of which figured conspicuously in the estimates. As to the Spanish affair, he did not think the House was in a position now to discuss it. It had been his intention to vote that the proposed grant of 2,000l. to Lord Minto be disallowed; but after hearing the speech of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) that day, his views had been completely altered; and if the peace of Europe had been maintained so cheaply, he should offer no opposition.

tions about to be entered into by the Go- consider whether it governed the case or vernments of France and England. not, and would give the Spanish Government such an answer as they thought right. The hon. and learned Member would recollect that the mere signature of the Quadruple Treaty at the time extinguished a civil war in Portugal, in which families were arrayed one against another; that when the signature of the Quadruple Treaty was known in Portugal, Don Miguel agreed to evacuate the country. Then the hon. and learned Member asked what benefit Portugal had derived from the transactions of last year? Why, a civil war, which would have been most desolating in its effects, was put an end to. He would not say that everything had been done in Portugal precisely as Her Majesty's Government would have wished; but Portugal was at this time at peace, when almost every country in Europe was convulsed; and although some things might have been better than they were, yet Portugal was in possession of constitutional institutions; and he knew that if a country had a constitution founded at least upon popular principles, it was sure, sooner or later, to arrive at a proper condition, and to obtain a constitutional and representative system of government; and this was an advantage for which any country that obtained it ought to be grateful to the State by whose influence it was gained.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, the policy of the Government of England, not only in the present case, but in all former periods of our history, was to consider the interests of England as deeply concerned in the transactions which took place in other countries; that it was the duty of the Government of England to have regard to those interests; to take such measures as might appear, under the circumstances of the moment, to be necessary; and to preserve those interests by negotiation, if negotiation were sufficient, or by other methods should negotiation be unavailing. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Bankes) wished to know what was the present state of our relations with Spain. The present state of our relations with Spain was this diplomatic intercourse between the two countries was suspended. The hon. and learned Member wished likewise to know by what means a British merchant in Spain, if he suffered wrong from the Government of that country, could obtain redress. We had a consular officer in Spain, and it was his duty and peculiar function to make representations to the Spanish Government on such mat-nounced the despots of the north as much ters; and, if the representations of our consular officer on behalf of a British merchant were not attended to, it was well known that every Government possessed means by which attention could be enforced. He (Lord Palmerston) did not consider that the treaties between the two countries were abrogated by the suspension of diplomatic intercourse. When the Government of Spain should appeal to the Government of England for the execution of a treaty which the Spanish Government should think applicable to a particular case, it would be for the British Government to

LORD GEORGE BENTINCK felt that no apology was necessary on his part for rising to make some observations as to the vote of 57,500l. for the Foreign Office. It was the special duty of the House of Commons to keep a strict watch on the conduct of foreign affairs, as they might entail consequences which would be attended with the largest expenditure. He could recollect the time when the hon. Member for Westminster adopted a different tone from what he did at present; and when he deas the anti-constitutional parties in Spain and Portugal, and when he took the lead in a sort of buccaneering expedition into Spain in favour of the constitutional party. He would not go back to the affair at Terceira, or the untoward affair at Navarino; but he could not help remarking on the singular difference in the conduct of Gentlemen when their friends were in office, and when they were out. The poet Moore some fifteen years ago said—

As bees on flowers alighting cease to hum,
So Whigs in place installed grow dumb."
He should like to know whether the me-