tend towards Vancouver's Island. They had heard a great deal from the right hon. Gentleman respecting the coal mines in Vancouver's Island; and he cheered the right hon. Gentleman, when he said they could be worked at such a small expense. Was not the Company competent to work them? What was the trade of the Pacific at present, which they were told they would drive away? ? There was a prospect of trade in the Pacific, between the harbour in Vancouver's Island and Hong-Kong and other settlements; but were we on this account to abandon the natural fields of colonisation so as to force it to this island? Were they, because they might have some trade between Vancouver's Island and HongKong, to resort to such an extraordinary course? He believed that the right hon. Gentleman had given a correct description of the climate of Vancouver's Island. He believed that colony possessed one of the settler such as now existed there; then it might be said to be turned to account. Under such circumstances, how could they make Vancouver's Island available? It would be 40 or 50, or 100 years before they could expect to do so. At the end, however, of eleven years, Vancouver's Island, in the words of the charter, was to be taken from the Hudson's Bay Company "On consideration of payments being made by us, our heirs, and successors, to the said Government and Company, of the sum or sums of money theretofore laid out and expended by them in and upon the said island and premises, and of the value of their establishments, property, and effects then being thereon." MR. HUME said, when all the other colonies were filled, then they might expect to colonise Vancouver's Island. This was most unreasonable. His hon. Friend had also complained of the time at which the Motion had been brought forward; but the noble Earl (the Earl of Lincoln) had given notice on the subject, which was placed on the books five weeks ago, and the Government alone had prevented him then to complain that the matter had not from bringing it forward. Was it fair He was bound also to state that he had been brought forward at the proper time? intended six months ago to have brought forward the subject. Other matters turned his attention from the subject. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Christy) had written to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and got from him an answer in writing, which he felt bound to read to the House. It was dated Downing-street, April the 11th, and stated— finest climates in the world. He was bound to add, that in the island there was very little land available for cultivation; the quantity of timber also which was readily accessible was not large. He asked, therefore, whether it would be wise at present to adopt a general colonisation to this place? He did not say that this might not be done at some future time; but that must be when our possessions which occupied the intervening space between the mother country and this island were filled. They must make up their minds that Vancouver's Island would remain with comparatively few inhabitants for the next fifty years; and when the tide of population flowed over the Rocky Mountains, and when California was occupied, then Vancouver's Island might be turned to advantage. When they talked of the colonial empire of England, and of its being made so little available as a field for colonisation, he was bound to say that he wished he could see the adoption of some great scheme of colonisation. He wished he could see the resources of these possessions turned to account. The tide of emigration had largely turned to the British colonies in North America, and he did not despair of seeing an extensive emigration to the Cape, which contained This had reference to the settlement of one of the finest climates in the world. Vancouver's Island. [Mr. HAWES: The That colony contained land capable of cul- note had nothing at all to do with the cotivation, which would require double the lony.] It had reference to the conduct of population of England to occupy it. He the Hudson's Bay Company. It came to wished, also, that he could see New Hol- the knowledge of some gentlemen in the land, with its vast sea-coast and its numer-City that something was about to be done ous harbours, turned to account; he wished in the shape of a grant of this island to to see New Zealand with fifty for every the Hudson's Bay Company, and some Sir-In reply to your note of the 4th instant, in which you request to be informed as to whether the Government have not come to a decision as to the requisition of the Hudson's Bay Company, and whether it was intended to give Parliament an opportunity before any fresh proceedings were taken to express its opinion on the subject, I beg to say that you understood correctly that Government had not come to any decision as to the differences existing between the settlers on the Red River and the Company; and, also, before any fresh decision is come to, Lord Grey will give ample notice to the parties." suspected that the grant had been already | Gentleman had made out a complete case signed. They came to him and requested against the Government; and even now him to bring the matter before Parliament. the House should interfere to prevent this He replied that he was surprised to hear plan being carried out. It was clear that them state that such a negotiation had a considerable portion of the trade to the been carried on, which he could hardly be- Pacific might be secured to this island, as lieve, for he was sure no Secretary of a bar existed at the mouth of the ColumState, after the letter which he had writ- bia, which materially impeded the navigaten, would do anything until the whole mat- tion of that river, and almost altogether ter was laid before Parliament. After this prevented the passage of large ships. Was promise of the Colonial Secretary, it was the House aware that the voyage from not the fault of the noble Lord, or the right Vancouver's Island to the coast of China hon. Gentleman, or himself, that this mat- occupied only eighteen days? Such were ter had been postponed. He complained the natural advantages of this island, that that in this as well as in other instances, he was sure, if it was left open to settlers, the Colonial Minister had taken upon him- many capitalists would go out there and self the exercise of powers before Parlia- take with them a number of emigrants. ment knew anything about it. His hon. The coal fields of this island extended over Friend who spoke last said there was a sixty square miles, and coals could be raised mistake as to the character of this island. at 2s. 6d. the ton. It was clear from the Surely his hon. Friend must have forgotten words of Sir John Pelly, in one of his letthe document which he held in his hand, ters, that the Company only accepted the preas to the state of that island. This paper sent grant as a step to a permanent grant. was not drawn up by a stranger, but by an As for the promises of the Company to officer of the Hudson's Bay Company. Mr. carry out so many settlers every year, he Douglas, their agent says:-[The hon. did not believe that anything of the kind Member quoted the paper and a letter would take place. They had been told from Sir G. Simpson, describing the island that this colony might have a free governas fertile, and the harbour as good.] By ment at last; but how this could be effected our absurd laws (he continued) we had when there was no power of obtaining lost the whale fisheries in the Pacific; but land, he could not see. If the charge had with these ports it might still be carried been still at 10s. an acre, he should not on to a great extent. Sir G. Simpson object; but under this charter they could not compel the Company to sell an acre of land in the island for 50l. an acre, or even at 1501. He should certainly take the sense of the House on the question by proposing the following resolution : says "Three American whaling ships entered the Straits of Fuca last autumn, for the purposes of obtaining supplies; and I think it likely an advantageous branch of business may be formed at Victoria, by supplying the ships engaged in the whale fishery with clothing, marine stores, refreshments, &c., being much nearer the fishing grounds than either California or the Sandwich Islands, the dangerous bar of the Columbia river interdicting frequent intercourse with that quarter." "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be pleased not to grant, as is proposed, to the Hudson's Bay Company, Vancouver's Island, until full inquiry shall be instituted into the complaints against that Company from the Settlers at the Red River, and also until the capabilities and peculiar situation of the Island Here, then, it was clear, that they were shall be fully ascertained;"handing over to this monopolising Com- unless the Government promised to give pany this rich territory, which might be an assurance to stop all proceedings until made such a valuable settlement. It was they had received the report from the Earl impossible for colonisation to be extended of Elgin, as to the treatment of the inhabiunder a company having such powers. It tants of the colony. was notorious that British capitalists were anxious to find fields for the employment of their capital. What ample scope existed here? He did not look so much to the soil, as to the extensive commerce which might be carried on. He believed the real object of the Company was to keep out all settlers, as they feared the extension of colonisation would interfere with and impede their fur trade. The right hon. MR. P. HOWARD seconded the Amendment. He believed that it would be most unwise to confer the proposed extensive powers on a fur-trading Company, whose object was manifestly not the promotion of colonisation, but the furtherance of their own interests. California had lately been ceded to the United States; and it appeared to him a matter of the highest national importance that we should establish a flourishing colony on the western coast of America, in order to balance the increased maritime strength of those States. MR. WYLD complained that in the remarks of the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen (Mr. Hawes and Mr. Buller) who had defended this grant, they had been contented to argue this question not on its own intrinsic merits, but on the principle of depreciating Vancouver's Island. They ought not to deal with this matter simply as a grant to a certain company, but as one which vitally concerned the safety of our vast colonies. Vancouver's Island was a central position in the Pacific Ocean. It was calculated to form a grand and important emporium. It must one day become the mistress of those seas. It possessed harbours which no other portion of the coast possessed. In the time of Mr. Pitt it was considered to be of vast importance -it must command the whole of the trade with China. The question had not been discussed in an agricultural point of view. The right hon. Member for Liskeard seemed to think that in that respect the island was utterly worthless. [Mr. BULLER: No, no!] Both the right hon. Gentleman and the Under Secretary for the Colonies had spoken very disparagingly of it. [Mr. HAWES No. no!] The truth was that, as the hon. Member for Montrose said, it possessed great agricultural resources; but the Hudson's Bay Company had withheld all information respecting it .But this country must look upon it as the great commercial entrepôt which would combine with its facilities of trading with China the place of exchange of productions of all the colonies in the Pacific Ocean, and thus form a counterbalance to the power of the North American nations, who had manifested great anxiety to obtain a footing upon the shores of this island. With respect to shipping, the Hudson's Bay Company were perfectly stationary, and the result was, that the English had to be supplied with goods surreptitiously by the Americans across the frontier. With reference to the objection to the time of the Session at which this subject had been brought forward, he begged the House to bear in mind that the subject was of such vast importance to this country and to our colonies that it was impossible to postpone it any longer. the attention of the House to the proposed grant of Vancouver's Island to the Hudson's Bay Company. It is always understood that the object of that notice is to state the circumstances, and not to propose any specific Motion on the subject. The hon. Gentleman took that course, as he had given notice. The right hon. Gentleman followed, and though he entered at great length and with great ability into the merits of the question, he did not think fit to bring forward or support any specific Motion on the subject. Then the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose rises and proposes that the House shall agree to an address to the Crown that no grant shall be made till full inquiry has taken place into the charges which have been brought against the Hudson's Bay Company. I believe the consequence of postponing to the year after the next any proceeding on this subject, as between the Hudson's Bay Company and the mother country, would be, that the Americans would settle Vancouver's Island, and that you would find them established there. That, I believe, would be the sole and entire effect of the hon. Gentleman's success. I admit that it would be very desirable if, as some hon. Gentlemen seem to suppose, there should be a company who would undertake the colonising of Vancouver's Island immediately, if they had means to do it. But, as my hon. Friend (Mr. Hawes) has stated, though several propositions have been made by parties expressing readiness to colonise it, the only one affording any prospect of colonisation is that which has been made by the IIudson's Bay Company. The right hon. Gentleman opposite has made two objections to the Hudson's Bay Company having any privilege at this time; one, that it is a monopolising company, and the other that it is a despotic government. I do not think there is much in these objections; because, though the right hon. Gentleman stated them with great ability, and dilated on them with great force and eloquence, they seem to me to have no relation to the subject. The exclusive privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company are already granted, and you cannot take them away without a breach of every principle which is held sacred or binding. Those exclusive privileges have been LORD J. RUSSELL: This question ap-granted until the expiration of the year pears to me to have been brought forward 1849. They hold their lands by a grant rather a singular manner. The notice of the Crown, dated the 13th of May, ich the hon. Member has given is to call 1838, which confirms their possession for twenty-one years from that date. I conceive that is a grant which cannot be taken from them. It is not proposed now to give them any exclusive powers. The hon. Gentleman complains of the despotic authority of the Company. The present proposal is to make a government on the basis of a free constitution. The hon. Gentleman can hardly be dissatisfied with a constitution which proposes that every inhabitant shall have a vote for a representative assembly, and that that representative assembly, with a governor and council, shall govern the colony. There is nothing to prevent the sale of land by the Company. There are no insurances or impediments such as have been alluded to; and, after all, it appears that the proposal is not to grant the Company any exclusive right, or to confer upon them any despotic authority. The argument of the hon. Gentleman might be very good for showing that in future the powers of the Hudson's Bay Company should be disallowed, in the same method that you might make an argument against the East India Company, by showing that they were a despotic and monopolising body, to whom further encouragement should not be given. But this has nothing to do with the immediate question. The question is whether the Crown, seeing no prospect of colonisation, is acting wisely in proposing to grant the possession of the lands for a limited period to a Company desirous of carrying out the experiment of colonisation, remembering that it would be prejudicial to this country if it were to lose the possession of this island. My right hon. Friend near me showed clearly that that would be the case-no answer has been made, no answer can be made, to that proposition. I do not say, however, that this House might, by an adverse vote, stop colonisation altogether, and enable the Americans to become possessors of the island. I own, for my part, I estimate the authority of Lord Elgin upon this point more than I do that of the hon. Gentle man. Lord Elgin stated that he has not made specific inquiries, but that he felt himself bound to say that the result of the inquiries which he had made were highly favourable to the Hudson's Bay Company, and left upon his mind the impression that their authority was exercised in a manner which, on the whole, was advantageous to England. that it had been improvidently made, be cause the Company had not the capacity, nor were they in a condition, to form a colony; and how could they prove that objection was rightly made, unless they showed from the condition of the Company that they were incapacitated? and from their conduct over a vast extent of territory, it was impossible to infer a beneficial result from their rule. The noble Lord, in vindication of this grant, told the House that if they did not immediately take possession of the country, the Americans, knowing the value of Vancouver's Island, would seize the opportunity of possessing it for themselves. But if the island was so valuable to the Americans, surely it was valuable to us; and it became the Government to see that they placed it upon such a footing as would render it more valuable. He, for his part, had no fear that by a temporary suspension of operations, which, if carried on, would cripple the colony for ever, any disadvantage could accrue; he had no fear that America would occupy the colony: especially when he remembered that there was a fine harbour in the island capable of holding their fleet, and when he reflected that Great Britain maintained a squadron in the Pacific capable of protecting her possessions. He believed that the Hudson's Bay Company had a small settlement in the island which would enable them to retain possession, in the name of the Queen of England, and in defiance of all the force of the American States. Lord Glenelg saw the great disadvantages which would accrue to this country if the whole of the territory was to be submitted to the control of the Hudson's Bay Company, so far as regarded the exclusive privileges of trade. He made a stipulation in the grant, that when any colony was founded within those limits by the British Government, from that moment the exclusive privileges should be abolished; so that if the Government established to-morrow any colony within those limits, the privileges of the Company were at an end, so far as that colony was concerned. Now, by the grant of the whole of the territory, which you are about to make, you abrogate that cautious provision which Lord Glenelg made in 1838. But, say the noble Lord and the hon. Member for Liskeard, we are going to give them a perfectly free constitution. What are the terms by which it is suggested to carry out this plan? You give the whole of the land in Vancouver to the Company. You MR. GOULBURN said, the objection which they made to the grant was this have a representative assembly-you estab The House divided on the question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question:-Ayes 76; Noes 58: Majority 18. List of the AYES. Abdy, T. N. Bagshaw, J. Lewis, G. C. Masterman, J. Matheson, A. Morpeth, Visct. Ogle, S. C. H. Palmerston, Visct. Perfect, R. Power, Dr. Reynolds, J. Rumbold, C. E. lish a governor and council-you promise distant when the knowledge of the advanfree institutions and universal suffrage- tage conferred on this island would induce [Mr. BULLER: I said that the inhabi- settlers to proceed thither. Upon the tants should have a vote.] He thought grounds which he had stated, he did hope that the right hon. Gentleman was on the that the Government would give the subpoint of assuring him that they should have ject a consideration. vote by ballot; and if ever there was a case when men were to exercise that privilege it would be in this, where it would be under the inspection of the Hudson's Bay Company. The grant vests the whole territory in the disposal of the Hudson's Bay Company. They have the disposal of land to all settlers. The House had heard that night what were the terms on which they disposed of land which was their property. The land would be forfeited instantly, if the purchaser did not obey all the rules and ordinances of the Hudson's Bay Company-if he did not perform all those duties for the regulation of the peace which they desired-and, above all, if he did not pay such taxes as might be imposed by the Hudson's Bay Company. Would any man tell him that men holding their lands upon such a tenure as that were able to form a free Parliament, or to exercise an unbiassed judgment as to what was best for the interests of the colony? And this was what the right hon. Member for Liskeard told the House was a free constitution! He thought that he had sufficiently shown to the House that whatever the other advantages of the measure might be, the colonists would not be likely to derive any advantage from the freedom of institutions about to be conferred upon them. He now came to the last point, in which they were told that a remedy had been provided by which they were positively to secure the settlement in Vancouver's Island. At the end of eleven years the people of England were to have the satisfaction of paying a long bill to the Hudson's Bay Company for all the expenses incurred during previous years, and that price should be paid, unless they were prepared to sacrifice the possession of the colony. He thought that he had said enough to show this was an improvident arrangement which had been entered into; and that the Government had not pursued that course which would most promote the perity of that particular portion of the empire. He was anxious that this valuable island should not be left in the hands of those who, without imputing evil disposi-Christy, S. tions, had not the capacity to form a settlement which would be advantageous to the country. The period was not very far pros Scrope, G. P. Shelburne, Earl of Somerville, rt. hn. SirW. Spearman, H. J. Thicknesse, R. A. Wilson, M. Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J. Willcox, B. M. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C. Jervis, Sir J. TELLERS. Hill, Lord M. List of the NOES. Adair, H. E. Brown, W. Corry, rt. hon. H. L. Fox, W. J. Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E. Gwyn, H. Hamilton, G. A. Henley, J. W. Herbert, H. A. Hood, Sir A. Kershaw, J. |