Milner, W. M. E. O'Brien, Sir L. O'Brien, T. Osborne, R. Repton, G. W. J. Scholefield, W. Scott, hon. F. Sibthorp, Col. Stuart, Lord D. Sturt, H. G. Tenison, E. K. TELLERS. Hume, J. House in Committee of Supply. On the question that 2,0067. be granted for the salaries of certain professors in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, MR. OSBORNE said, he should divide the Committee on this vote. It might be very well to provide education for the poor, but it was doubtful policy to pay for the education of the rich. might do away with the objection to altering the constitution of the Universities. It did not require any essential alteration in the constitution of the Universities to adopt this system, and he hoped, in the course of next year to state that the alteration had been made. MR. GLADSTONE said, that this vote certainly stood on a different footing from the gratuitous vote originally taken out of the finances of the country. It was connected with the patronage of the Crown, and the just influence the Crown ought to have with the Universities. As a matter of money, no great value was to be attached to a vote like this-the tax on degrees greatly outweighed this vote. If it were unworthy of wealthy institutions, like the Universities, to receive this 9007. a year, he did not think that the tax on degrees was one which the Exchequer ought to SIR R. H. INGLIS said, a much larger have. It was insignificant in its amount, sum was given to the University of St. and ungenerous in its character, and the Andrew's. This House gave 9531. to Ox- sooner it was got rid of the better. He ford, and 1,0531. to the University of Cam- cordially concurred with the noble Lord in bridge; and they took away, in the shape thinking that, as they were stewards of of stamps and degrees, a sum twice as this vote, they were perfectly entitled to large as the pittance which they doled out. see that the duties were adequately perLORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that he formed. As to what the noble Lord had should be very sorry if the Committee said as to the arrangement between Camwere to reduce the vote for professors; at bridge and London, he could not help the same time he thought it was a matter thanking the noble Lord for that proposifor consideration and inquiry whether, in tion in this sense, that it showed a real future, they should not endeavour to make and practical view of the question, and a some condition by which these professor-real desire to consult the various interests ships might be made useful. There was another subject upon which he would take the liberty of saying a few words, namely, as to the admission of Dissenters to our Universities. He thought that the statutes of the Universities, and the constitution of the Universities, as they at present stood, did prevent Dissenters from being inmates of the colleges in one instance, and in the other instance taking degrees; but it was well known that at Cambridge both Roman Catholics and Protestant Dissenters had been educated, and had continued their education at the University until they came to the point of receiving their degrees. It had been suggested by some persons holding office in the University of London, whether certificates which were given by other colleges should not be given by the University of Cambridge to Roman Catholics and Protestant Dissenters, to enable them to take a degree at the University of London, certifying that they had obtained an efficiency entitling them to receive the degree. Some arrangement of that sort that were concerned. He assured hon. Gentlemen that there were many men in the University of Oxford, holding high office there, who had given their attention to the means of greatly extending the reception of the less wealthy class into the University. He trusted that no long time would elapse before they would be able to realise their intentions. COLONEL THOMPSON said, he was unwilling to let the debate pass over without stating that he apprehended the Dissenters would not accept the proposal, that after keeping their terms at Cambridge they should be allowed to take their degrees at the London University. He knew no reason why they should consent to being thus rejected as unworthy. The only ground urged for excluding Dissenters was, that there would be difficulties in their attending in the college chapels. The way to obviate these would be for the Dissenters to have a college in the University with a chapel of their own. If there were still difficulties on the subject of their admission. Berkeley, hon. C. F. Fortescue, hon. J. W. Peto, S. M. Power, Dr. Salwey, Col. Ayes 96; Scholefield, W. Greene, J. Kershaw, J. Locke, J. Lushington, C. Martin, J. O'Brien, T." Pearson, C. Osborne, B. TELLERS. From the Counties of Cork and Waterford, against the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill.-From Charles Miller, M.A., Clerk, praying for Inquiry into the Nature of the Revenues of the Christian Church.-From the Waterford Sanitary Association, for the Adoption of Measures to provide for the Prevention of the Indian Cholera in Ireland. From Clergymen of the Church of England, against the Charity Trust Regulation Bill.-From the Parish of Frome Selwood, in the County of Somerset, for the Repeal of the Poor Removal Act. THE IRISH REBELS. LORD BROUGHAM inquired whether the report was or was not well founded, that there had been presented a petition, or memorial to the Crown, signed by many of the Prelates and Clergymen of the Irish Catholic Church, praying for the extension of mercy to those misguided men who had been led away from the line of their duty to commit-some of them high treason by House resumed. Committee to sit again. waging war against the Queen, and others 2a London (City) Small Debts; Out Pensioners; Stock in Reported.-Farmers' Estate Society (Ireland); Tithe Rent pike Acts Continuance; Assessionable Manors Commis sioners (Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster); Militia Pay; Poor Law Union District Schools. 3a and passed:-Registers of Sasines (Scotland); Court of Justiciary (Scotland); Money Order Department (Post Office); Insolvent Debtors Court. and Others, interested in the St. Leonard's, Seddlescomb, and several other Turnpike Trusts, complaining of the State of Turnpike Trusts throughout England and Wales. felonious offences, by recommending means for the destruction of the troops, by pouring on them vitriol and other deleterious compounds, with the ultimate view of getting up a massacre and involving the country in a civil war? The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE replied, that he had no official knowledge of the existence or the presentation of any such document. CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the First Reading of the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill. It was his intention to move the second reading upon Thursday next. LORD REDESDALE protested against the hurrying a Bill of such an important character as this at such a late period of the Session. The Bill had only been laid upon the table of the House that evening. It attacked a great number of boroughs, and that upon grounds very indefinite. It was hardly possible to estimate the importance of the measure; and he did hope that Government would yield to the wishes of the Opposition, and postpone it until further time was given for its consideration. LORD BROUGHAM felt that it was absolutely necessary, for the honour of Parliament, as well as for the morality of the country, that a stop should be put to the practices which commonly prevailed all over it at elections, and never to such an extent as they had at the last. The LORD CHANCELLOR did not consider that there was any ground for postponing the measure. It was his in *tention to move the second reading of the Bill upon Thursday next. } the medium of the King, Lords, and Commons. He held that the Crown could not EARL GREY considered that they should disfranchise a borough; the Lords could read the Bill a first time before they could not disfranchise a borough, neither could say what they would be disposed to do with the Commons disfranchise a borough. No it. It would certainly be more convenient one branch of the Legislature could disto postpone a measure of such importance franchise a borough, or any place entitled to a future Session if the adoption of such to send a representative to Parliament, of a course would not lead to its total loss. its own authority. By the law of the land Such a measure, no matter when intro- the Commons could not suspend the right duced to the other House, could never of any borough to send its representatives reach their Lordships at a much earlier to Parliament. They had their right to period of a Session. be represented, and, above all, they had that right when a Bill was introduced for the purpose of disfranchising them. The House of Commons had taken upon itself to dispute and set aside the law of the land, and they had suspended the writs for election in several boroughs merely because they were charged with some offence. Α certain borough had been thus suspended of its rights for two whole years. He desired that the boroughs should be represented during the inquiry about to take place. He did trust that the law of the land, which had been interfered with, would be once more restored. The EARL of HARDWICKE thought it was extremely hard that they should be called to pass measures bearing upon the constitution of the country at such a late period of the Session, and in so thin a House. The object of Parliament was to legislate for the people in an efficient manner. This could not be attained if Bills were thus hurried, and if due time was refused for their consideration. LORD REDESDALE moved, that the Standing Order of the House, No. 24, be read. It was impossible that any Bill could be discussed at that period of the Session with due consideration. The Lord Chancellor proposed to read it a second time on Thursday next. The Bill had only been laid upon the table that day; it could not be with their Lordships before Tuesday, and that would only leave a day for consideration. It was indecent to hurry a Bill of such importance. He did trust that the Government would yield to the wishes of the Opposition upon this single occasion. Some deference ought to be shown to those wishes, for Government could not complain that they had received from the Opposition any which could in the slightest degree be deemed factious. He would move the further consideration of the Bill upon that day three months. The Order having been read, The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the order referred to a Bill passed in the year 1668, and set forth that the passing of that Bill should not be deemed a precedent in future for passing measures at late periods in a Session. The instance referred to occurred in the year 1668, and this was the year 1848. He could not see any similarity between the two cases. LORD REDESDALE considered that there was a similarity. He again urged upon the noble Lord the policy of yielding to the wishes of the Opposition. LORD BROUGHAM said, that the legislation of this country was conducted through The DUKE of WELLINGTON: The question before the House is, whether this Bill be read a first time. Let it be so read. As well as he was informed, and he had no better information than what the newspapers afforded, it was proposed by this Bill to form a new jurisdiction for the trial of these cases. And if the Bill pass, their Lordships would be deprived of the right of inquiry into those cases. Their Lordships will have to decide upon them without previous inquiry at their bar. That might be an object which it was very desirable to attain. He apprehended, however, that it was a measure of such importance that it ought not to be brought under the attention of the House without due and full consideration; and he considered full time ought to be given to their Lordships and to the country at large to understand what they were going to do. EARL GREY: The House always read a Bill a first time before they say what they should do. He would not have risen were it not to put it to the noble Lord whether it were not an incorrect practice to suspend inquiries of this kind. noble Lord himself voted for the suspension of the writ for East Retford. The LORD BROUGHAM: In all these cases it had become the common practice of the House of Commons to suspend the writ; it is done upon the slightest charge. This was not proper. The case of East Retford take possession of a station there. Ex was very peculiar in its nature. Bill read 1a. House adjourned. —mmmmm HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, August 21, 1848. pense was necessarily incurred at starting, but he believed that Labuan would become a second Singapore, and this estimate would be reduced as revenue accrued. one was so fit for governor as the gentleman who had been appointed. No MR. OSBORNE considered the vote ex MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-10 Bankrupts' Release; Poor travagant; it was pretended to be only Removal (England and Scotland); Battersea Park, &c. 2o Millbank Prison; Slave Trade (Equator); Slave Trade (Muscat). Reported.-Commons Inclosure Act Amendment; Sheep, &c., Contagious Disorders Prevention; Transfer of Landed Property (Ireland). 3o and passed :—Labouring Poor (Ireland); Controverted Elections. PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Peto, from the City of Norwich, for an Extension of the Elective Franchise.By Mr. Disraeli, from Landowners, and Others, of the Parish of Lewknor Uphill, in the County of Oxford, respecting the Proposed Demolition of Ackhampstead Chapel.-By Mr. Peto, from Members of the Congregation of Wesleyan Methodists of the Town of Banbury, Oxfordshire, and from several other Places, in favour of a Better Observance of the Lord's Day.-By Mr. George Thompson, from Rungo Bapojee, the Agent of His Highness Shahoo Maharaj (the Adopted Son of the deceased Rajah of Sattara), seeking Redress for his Master's Grievances.-From Bankers, Merchants, and Others, of the the Bankruptcy Act.-By Mr. Napier, from several Places in Ireland, for Encouragement to Schools in ConBy Mr. Peto, from the Ministers of the British Association of Baptist Churches, in favour of a Recognition of the Principle of Equal Justice.-By Mr. Headlam, from Norwich Chamber of Commerce, for an Alteration of nexion with the Church Education Society (Ireland). the Board of Guardians of the Teesdale Union, in the Counties of York and Durham, for an Alteration of the Law respecting Mendicants.-By Mr. Mackinnon, from the Bethnal Green Sanitary Association, for an Alteration of the Nuisances and Contagious Diseases Bill.-By Mr. George Hamilton, from the Dublin and Drogheda Railway Company, for Licensing Omnibus Carriages (Dublin). -By Mr. Parker, from Officers employed in the Ecclesfield Bierlow Union, in the Counties of York and Derby, Mr. Cobden, from Members of the Bramley District of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, against the Provident Associations Fraud Prevention Bill. By Mr. Price, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers.-By from the Inhabitants of Hereford, to take the State of Turnpike Trusts into Consideration. SUPPLY-LABUAN. On the question that a sum of 9,8271. be granted for maintaining the Government of Labuan for the year ending the 31st of March, 1849, MR. HUME thought it too much to begin, at such a place as this, with such salaries as "Governor or Commander-inChief, 2,000l.; Lieutenant-Governor and Magistrate, 1,3751.;" to say nothing of "Master-Attendant and Postmaster, 5001.; Surveyor, 500l." He begged to move that the vote be reduced to 3,000l. MR. HAWES observed that this was a new estimate, but Labuan was a position very important in reference to our trade in that quarter; the merchants in all parts of the country had urged the Government to "to begin with," but, once voted, it would never get less. Next year there would most likely be a bishop; a colony never started with a governor and commanderin-chief without ending with a bishop. MR. MACKINNON hoped there might be a bishop there some day; nothing was so likely to keep a colony in order and in due subjection to the mother country as an ecclesiastical establishment. Labuan was an important position. Borneo ultimately, in all probability, might belong to this country. MR. GLADSTONE was a little alarmed at the comprehensive view of his hon. Friend; considering the portion of the earth that we had got, he was more anxious for the cultivation of the field already ours, than for the extension of it, though ready to allow that a post at Labuan might be very wise. The hon. Member (Mr. Osborne) was strangely wrong about bishops. With the exception of a grant which was doomed to extinction on the expiration of a life interest, there was only one vote for a bishop in the whole of the colonial estimates, namely, 600l. a year for a bishop in New Zealand, and it had proved the cheapest 600l. we ever expended. But the estimate before the House was certainly large. Labuan was in its infancy, and it would be premature to frame establishments for it on the idea that it would be a second Singapore. LORD J. RUSSELL considered the vote an experiment. Rajah Brooke, by his own genius, activity, and resources, had laid the foundation at Labuan of a considerable trade. He asked the Rajah when in Europe whether he thought that trade would be large? He said he thought it would in time, but did not expect it to grow up very rapidly. The question was whether it would not be advisable as an experiment to foster Labuan for the purposes of commerce. As a station to which our ships might have recourse, it was of considerable importance. Lord Grey stated in his evidence before the Committee, that he expected in a very short time it would, like Singapore, pay the whole expenses of its civil establishment. If that expectation | purpose of rooting them out, particularly were realised, no further vote would be ne- on the Sooloo coast; and it was only after eessary on account of Labuan. It certainly a very obstinate resistance that he had was worth the experiment; and if it failed, been enabled to complete his purpose. he would not propose a further establish- Here was a quarter in which commerce ment. As Sir J. Brooke had been so was capable of a great and important demuch the originator of this establishment, velopment. That could not take place he thought it was advisable to place him without adequate protection against this at its head. most extensive and formidable system of MR. G. THOMPSON admitted the ex-piracy; and he did hope that one of the traordinary exploits of the Rajah in the beneficial consequences that would result Indian Archipelago, but deprecated the es- from the establishment of Labuan would tablishment of Labuan; believing, as he be the extinction of these pirates, partly did, that it would tend, not to the promo- by the exercise of military force, and partly tion of peaceful and honourable commerce, by the moral effects of civilisation; and but to the infliction of the greatest calami- thus the interests of commerce in Europe ties on the population of that part of the and Asia would be materially advanced. world. Every humane man must shudder The Committee divided on the question, as he read the proceedings of our ships of that a sum not exceeding 3,000l. be war, and the indiscriminate massacres that granted:-Ayes 12; Noes 56: Majority had taken place, directly or indirectly, in 44. connexion with their proceedings at Labuan. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON could not allow this conversation to close without saying a few words. Tower Hamlets objected to the vote because he thought the interests of humanity and justice would be better consulted by abandoning Labuan; because its establishment would lead us into incessant conflict with the peaceful inhabitants of that region, and even involve the aborigines in indiscriminate massacre. Now, if it were possible for the ingenuity of man-ignorant, as the hon. Member was not, of the circumstances under which that establishment had been formed-to make a statement in every respect the very reverse of the fact, it would be such a statement as the hon. Gentleman had made. What was it that obstructed the increase of the peaceful commerce of Europe and Asia in those islands? What but the prevalence The hon. Member for the of piracy? The peaceful aborigines! Why, a multitude of those islands were filled with nests of pirates, who preyed on the peaceful aborigines, and destroyed commerce in those distant seas. The object of our naval expeditions had been to put down the most detestable and diabolical system of piracy that ever existed on the face of the globe. Those pirates went out frequently in fleets of 12,000 men, armed, and required a very considerable force to meet and repress them. We were not the only people taking measures to put them down. The Spanish Governor General of the Philippine Islands had sent a large naval and military expedition for the express List of the AYES. Adair, R. A. S. Bellew, R. M. Lascelles, hon. W. S. M'Gregor, J. Parker, J. Power, Dr. Romilly, Sir J. Russell, Lord J. Scrope, G. P. Duncan, G. Sheil, rt. hon. R. L. Shelburne, Earl of Howard, P. H. Somerville, rt. hon. W. Wilson, M. TELLERS. Tufnell, H. Labouchere, rt. hon. H. Craig, W. G. |