part of the question:-Ayes 118; 15: Majority 103. List of the NOES. Burrell, Sir C. M. Dick, Q. Grogan, E. Gwyn, H. Henley, J. W. Hood, Sir A. O'Brien, Sir L. TELLERS. Hamilton, G. A. House in Committee of Supply. Several votes agreed to. House resumed, and adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, August 22, 1848. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Sugar Duties; Contro- Parochial Debt and Audit. (Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Steam Navigation; Parliamentary Electors; Poor Law Union District Schools; Militia Pay; PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Clergymen of the Parish of Manchester, against the Present Ecclesiastical Law. From the Baptist Congregations of Burton-onTrent, for the Discontinuance of Grants of Money for the Temple of Juggernaut, &c.-From the Electors and Inhabitants of Bewdley, against the Passing of the Cor Tithe Rent Charge, &c. (No. 2) (Ireland). Noes of the deepest dye, the perpetration of which the negro might lawfully resist, and in which resistance all others were perfectly justified in aiding him. This proposition it was necessary to repeat, because there existed a strong interest to make men forget it; but quite unnecessary to prove by any arguments, for he might rest entirely on the authority of all the civilised world, of France, of America, and of England. On a late occasion the House of Commons, in full accordance with this principle, determined to consider the best means of providing for the extinction of the slave trade, and appointed a Committee with that object; taking it for granted that the trade was to be extinguished, and that the only question was, what were the most effectual means of accomplishing its extinction ? He must own, however, that there was something ominous to him in the recommendations which were made by the hon. Gentleman who moved the appointment of that Committee, and who afterwards, as Chairman, presided over the inquiry; for a preconceived opinion had been most distinctly stated by the hon. Gentleman on one of the most important subjects to which it could be directed. The opinion was, that all attempts at suppressing the slave trade on the coast of Africa had entirely failed; and not only so, but had occasioned THE SLAVE TRADE. a great aggravation of the evil. noble and learned Lord here referred to LORD DENMAN rose to moveHansard for the opinion of Mr. Hutt, “That an humble Address be presented to Her who said, "If asked what he would do Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will be gra- with the slave trade, he would say, withciously pleased to give Directions for the Enforcement of all Treaties with Foreign Powers for the out reserve, Leave the slave trade to itExtinction of the Slave Trade on the Coast of self;'"-and he assumed, before entering Africa; and for the Prosecution of all British on his functions, that the squadron ought Subjects, either at home or abroad, directly or in- to be recalled from the coast of Africa. directly concerned in violating the Laws against He had even seen that hon. Gentleman's that Crime; and that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into Her serious Con- claim to public confidence rested on this sideration the Expediency of concerting Measures very opinion, said to have been long enwith her Allies for declaring Slave-trading Pi-tertained by him. It was hardly to be racy, with a Punishment less severe than that now incurred according to the Laws of Nations for that expected, that under such circumstances Crime." the subject would undergo a perfectly The noble and learned Lord said, that fair and impartial investigation. he must ask their Lordships to bear in propositions were put forward as decidedly remembrance this proposition, that the conclusive against the continued mainteslave trade was one of the worst of hu-nance of our squadron on the coast of Africa. One of these was, that the means man crimes; the most daring violation of the laws of God and man-prompted by the employed for the extinction of the traffic had proved ineffectual; but basest motives, productive of the greatest amount of suffering to its victims, and that the Committee did not come to any reit most effectually prevented the progress They were unable to make in civilisation and happiness of a very notwithstanding the preconceived opinion up their minds with regard to it; and large portion of the human race. It had, therefore, been declared to be a crime rupt Practices at Elections Bill. solution. upon *Third Series, Vol. xcvi. p. 1100. The Two that of the hon. Chairman, and notwithstand the very lowest point of its depression ing the course of examination of wit- an unfortunate circumstance had tended nesses which was adopted, and which greatly to increase the trade. The opinshowed that that opinion was shared ion of a learned officer of the Crown had by many Members of the Committee, been somewhat unguardedly expressed, still they had not the courage cither to which appeared to throw doubt on the come to a resolution of that kind in legality of the measures adopted. The Committee, or in the House of Commons, Foreign Office have communicated that to refuse to vote the amount which was opinion to the Admiralty; and it was necessary for the continuance of the squa- filched by some ally of the slavetraders, dron. The second proposition was, that and despatched to the Coast. A report our attempts to put it down had done more was circulated in Africa, that a revoluharm than good, and had had the effect of tion had taken place in England; that greatly aggravating the horrors of the Lord Palmerston had been sacrificed; and trade. He (Lord Denman) would under- that the House of Commons intended to take to disprove both these assertions. revive the slave trade. The discourageTheir Lordships and the country were ment to the officers employed may be compelled to resort to the report of the easily conceived, from the apprehension evidence taken by the Committee for the that their vigorous measures were not sancpurpose of obtaining facts. He (Lord tioned by their Government, and that they Denman) thought it of the highest im- might be made liable to heavy damages portance at the present moment, that for the faithful discharge of the duty enthe mind of the country should not be trusted to them. But, had the blow perverted on this vital subject; that it which those officers struck been followed should not forget all its former aspira- up, he believed the trade would have tions and convictions, and sink into a state been annihilated ere this. It had been of apathy and indifference, or rather give admitted that, in 1843, the slave trade its approval to the slave trade-a result was considered to be a losing concern which would be alike disgraceful to the in Brazil; and the evidence of Mr. Cliffe, country, and injurious to the interests of a good authority on the subject, and who humanity. Yet no one could be blind to was examined before the Committee, showthe great efforts that had long been making ed that it was abandoned by many persons in the public journals and other publications, in despair, because they thought the Goto bring the public mind into that state of vernment of England was sincere in the torpor which would tolerate the enormi- resolution to put it down; but when they ties of the slave trade; and he was anxious saw reason to doubt the sincerity of the to appeal to the great power of the press Government of England, then it was that to lend its talents and influence to a com- the slave trade revived with accumulated prehensive view of the whole question, in- vigour. He would now direct their Lordstead of creating erroneous impressions by ships' attention to the statement that the partial statements and fallacious extracts. squadron had tended to aggravate rather He believed that the slave trade could than to diminish the horrors of the trade. be suppressed by such means as we had If it could be made out clearly that all hitherto employed; and, what was more, our efforts had been futile and injuthat it had to a great extent been sup-rious, the argument for abandoning pressed on various parts of the coast them must prevail; but he thought the of Africa. True, it was not extin proof had utterly failed in that reguished; but it had been discouraged and depressed in particular quarters, and had not been able to lift up its head with the same effrontery as it had done before those measures were resorted to. The infamous traffic had been suppressed in the river Quorra, in the Bonny, and also in the Gambia; and he found that, instead of the 12,000 negroes who were formerly exported to Cuba every year, the number had dwindled down to 1,000 in the year 1845. The exportation to Brazil was also materially and gradually reduced. But at spect. Why was this imputed? Because there was much greater hurry and expedition in embarking and landing the slaves, from fear of interruption by the cruisers, and less care for the comforts of the slaves; because small swift vessels were employed, and because they were considerably overcrowded. But this was a string of fallacies from beginning to end; for the use of those swift vessels would ensure a shorter passage; whilst the overcrowding of the vessel was calculated to retard its speed, and thus in fact to incur the very danger the danger of falling into the hands of British cruisers-which they desired to avoid. Another reason, too, was assigned for this overcrowding; and it was because so many died on the passage in consequence of the ill-treatment they received. Thus it was argued, that the cause of their putting so many on board, was, that so many died on the passage; and that the cause of so many dying on the passage, was the overcrowding! The political economists said, "Leave the slavetraders to themselves; they will not destroy their own slaves; men will not destroy their own pigs and sheep;" but negroes were not cattle-they would not tamely submit to the treatment of slaves, and the slavetrader had to contend with their natural feelings as men, and provide by any means to put down a resistance which was always probable. The Committee of the House of Commons had had before them a person who had acknowledged himself to have been a slavetrader-and this person the Committee had consulted about the best means of putting down the slave trade! Why, the bare idea of asking a slavetrader for his opinion, with reference to the means employed for the suppression of the slave trade, seemed to be one of the most preposterous he ever heard of. What! consult the wolf about the best means of preserving the sheep? The answer came of course. "Remove the dogs." And this person said, "Oh! I am quite hopeless of the efforts of the squadron"-and, of course, he deprecated the employment of it any longer. Hopeless! this man's hope must be not for the squadron's success, but its defeat; and when he so earnestly recommends its recall, he bears the best testimony he is capable of affording to its efficacy. He is an accomplice, and naturally wishes the crime to go on and prosper without molestation. Conceive one of a gang of burglars consulted by the police on the best means of extinguishing burglary! And conceive this advice to be given, "Leave it to itself, I am hopeless of effecting its extinction, you will only cause resistance and bloodshed by making the attempt, and aggravate the horrors you detest. He felt the necessity of now warning the public mind against the false views which were gaining ground unperceived upon this subject, and which threatened to replace the slave trade in the position in which it was practised in this country previous to the year 1788. He was fearful of that extension of the trade which would follow the withdrawal of the cruisers from the coast of Africa; because, if they were withdrawn, the Coast would, in the language of the gallant officer now commanding them, become "one great nest of pirates and robbers." He denied that the cruisers were responsible for the crimes of the slavers, any more than the policeman for the consequences of a criminal resistance to his interference for the prevention of rapine and murder. He was aware that some of the officers employed on that station had expressed an opinion unfavourable to the continuance of the squadron, and believed that with many the service was unpopular. He might refer to the evidence of Captain Maunsell, whom he knew to be a gallant officer, a candid and honourable man, but a gentleman who went out to suppress the slave trade with the conviction that the means used would not be sufficient for the purpose; who set about an arduous task, requiring all the energy of hope, half disqualified by despair. He actually read to the Committee a passage from his memorandum book, copied into it by himself before he left England, embodying that sentiment. Surely it may be suggested without any disrespect either to the Admiralty or the officer, that men entertaining such an opinion should not be selected for the service. He was sorry to say, that from looking over this evidence, he had not the slightest doubt that English capital was largely engaged in the slave trade-that the property of many persons in England was engaged in it; and that by joint-stock companies in Brazil, comprising many English shareholders, large profits were drawn from it. It might be difficult to get at such persons; but was this country to connive at such practices after passing enactment after enactment for three quarters of a century for the purpose of putting it down? Now, if they put an end to their squadron, they would be throwing the slave trade open to the entire world; and the English, from their capital and enterprise, in commerce of every kind, would soon become amongst the largest dealers in this traffic. He had to offer his humble apology for so imperfectly treating this the greatest cause that ever was pleaded before a human audience; and he hoped he would be excused for addressing them in his desire to put an end to the evil. He hoped that the people of England would not abandon the course they had recently adopted, and for which he must say he thought they had taken too much credit to themselves. On the con ion upon the evidence now laid upon the table. That the Government had not abated one jot of their determination in regard to the suppression of the slave trade, might be shown by a reference to the recorded words of his noble Friend the Se trary, it was a lasting shame to a Christian of Commons. He (the Marquess of Lanscountry to have clung so long to the dis-downe) wished their Lordships to have the graceful practice of slavetrading, in the amplest opportunity of forming their opinface of the clearest conviction, and to have so tardily emancipated their own slaves. He strenuously exhorted them by persevering in their present righteous exertions to make atonement for those offences, not to relapse into them; and with these views he proposed an address to cause British sub-cretary for Foreign Affairs, who in word jects who may offend either at home or abroad, to be brought to justice; to induce the enforcement of those treaties by which other nations are bound to co-operate with us in suppressing the traffic; and to induce them to declare slavetrading piracy by their municipal laws. All the witnesses agree that some punishment of those actually carrying on the trade would greatly deter from it; but in the present state of the world, it was scarcely to be expected that the power of summary execution of the pirate by hanging from the yard arm, should be conceded to foreigners. To consign them to the hands of justice, for a less severe punishment-transportation and compulsory labour at Bermuda or elsewhere would probably be more effectual. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving the address. The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, that both that House and the public must feel thankful to his noble and learned Friend for having attracted attention to this important subject. It was not from any disrespect to his noble and learned Friend that on this occasion he should most reluctantly take the course of moving the previous question. His reason for so doing was, that the report of the Committee had only been placed that day on their table, and there had been no time for their Lordships to consider it. It might, perhaps, be inferred-although not so purposed by his noble Friend-from the terms of the address which had just been proposed, and also from some circumstances to which his noble and learned Friend had adverted in his speech, that he had some intention of implying the existence, which there certainly was not, of an unwillingness on the part of the Government to carry into effect the provisions that had been made for suppressing the slave trade, and that the Government were not at this moment, as they however undoubtedly were, giving to those provisions their fullest effect, and also that there might be some appearance of an inclination of prejudging in that House the result of the inquiry before the Committee of the House Upon and act had been the consistent and con- LORD BROUGHAM observed, that there was not the least difference of opinion on this subject in their Lordships' House. Their Lordships would be called upon to decide upon a theory which involved a most trumpery and most ignorant misap plication of the principles of free trade-pointed. Yet so it was, a man avowedly principles which had no more to do with a felon, avowedly one who had made his the question of offences and crimes-with fortune in the accursed man-traffic, was robbery, piracy, and murder, than they had called before a Committee, he would not to do with any other question the least ap- say of the House of Commons, but of one plicable of which the human mind could House of the Legislature. Care was form a conception. His noble Friend the taken to show that he was highly in favour Lord Chief Justice had discharged his with some of the parties there, an anxiety duty with his wonted ability and firmness. shown to wipe away some of the anteceHis speech was one of singular effect. It dent stains affixed upon his character, had satisfied all but one; it had fulfilled all and an appeal was made to him as to other men's expectations except only the the credibility of a gallant captain in Her speaker himself. It had for ever set at Majesty's service. It was no light matter rest the question of fact; on this it was that a felon, a felon avowedly and coming a complete demonstration, and his noble and voluntarily in that character before the learned Friend had completely refuted the Committee-it was no light matter that two propositions that the slave trade had in- such a man should be called into any creased in despite of all our efforts to sup- court, either of justice or of Parliapress it, and that our endeavours had ment, to prejudice or stigmatise any aggravated, instead of alleviating, the evils one, far less one holding Her Majesty's attending on it. It was impossible for any Commission. He was not opposed to inone to read the evidence contained in that quiry on the subject. He had long been blue book without feeling convinced that of opinion that a searching inquiry before the witnesses who appeared before the a Committee of that House into the whole Committee had been called and marshalled question-a searching and rigid inquiry and examined for the purpose of support- into the various forms which the maning a foregone conclusion, because it was traffic, which the detestable crime assumed, a notorious fact that the friends of the in- would have a most beneficial effect. It quiry had repeatedly declared that the would show one of two things-it would object they had in view was to set the either show that the stigma which had slave trade free-preposterously to intro- been thrown upon the character of British duce the principles of free trade, forsooth! merchants was wholly and entirely uninto crime. Unfortunately they had so founded, or it would prove-and he feared got into the habit of talking of the slave that would be the result it would prove trade and slave-dealing, that the crime es- that the suspicions which were entertained caped the reprobation which would have were well founded, and that the criminals been excited against it in the minds of all, were to be found within the bosom of the had it been, as it ought to have been, great mercantile communities of London, called man-stealing and had the deal- Bristol, Liverpool, and Manchester, who ers in that horrid traffic been called ought to be dragged out into the light, and man-stealers. Had it been spoken of held up in their true colours to the wonderin that plain and honest manner they ing and indignant gaze of their fellownever would have seen such a state of countrymen. He would recommend the things suffered to exist as had astonished noble and learned Lord to withdraw his Mothem all a short time ago they never tion, and to let the declaration on the part would have seen a Committee of one of the Government, which had been made House of the Legislature suffering a man by the noble Marquess, go forth to the to come before them and say he was a world unfettered. felon in his own country-that he had been guilty of murder and rapine and piracynay, of every crime which the law contemplated, because they were all comprised in the detestable crime of carrying on the slave trade-avowing himself that it was a lucrative trade, and that he had made a fortune by it, without that Committee sending him to his trial, and afterwards to the hulks-they would never have seen such a man made the cherished, the pet, the darling witness of those promoting the objects for which the Committee was ap After a few words from LORD DENMAN in reply, the previous question was put, Whether the said Question shall be now put ?-Resolved in the Negative. PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS BILL. LORD BEAUMONT moved that this Bill, the object of which was to regulate the times of payment of rates and taxes by Parliamentary electors, be read a third time; after which it was his intention to propose an amendment as to the period up to which the rates should be paid, to en |