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title parties to be on the list of voters. At sent Session. That House sent to their present the Bill provided that all rates Lordships for a copy of their report; they and taxes payable previously to the 11th had had the evidence of Lord Lyndhurst, day of October in the preceding year, of Lord Denman himself, and of five should be paid on or before the 20th of Judges; they had taken much time to conJuly next following. This he had ascer- sider the case, and they had reached a detained would interfere with the arrange- liberate conclusion, which most certainly ments made by parishes for the collection was entitled to every degree of respect. of the rates, which were usually collected half-yearly; he, therefore, proposed that instead of those rates which should become payable previously to the 11th of October in the preceding year being required to be paid, all rates payable previously to the 5th of January in the same year should be actually paid before a person could be a registered voter. He hoped by this alteration to obviate the objection which was urged against the Bill on the second reading.

LORD REDESDALE approved of the proposed Amendment. It was in accordance with one he himself suggested; but at the same time he objected to their Lordships being called upon to pass a measure of this importance at so late a period of the Session, especially as the second reading was carried only by a majority of four. It involved an alteration of the principle of the Reform Act, which it was admitted on all hands, ought not to be lightly touched. He moved, therefore, that the Bill be read a third time on that day six months.

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Their Lordships divided on question, that the word "now stand part of the Motion-Contents 31; Not Contents 28: Majority 3.

Bill read 3a. Amendment made. Bill passed.

CRIMINAL LAW ADMINISTRATION
AMENDMENT BILL.

LORD CAMPBELL moved to agree to the Commons' Amendments in the Criminal Law Administration Amendment Bill.

LORD DENMAN said, he had the greatest respect for the House of Commons; but he thought it most outrageous that that which their Lordships had, after full consideration, already rejected, should be again imposed upon them. The Judges had not time to consider the numerous cases which they were at present compelled to decide, and he strongly objected to any such additions to their labours as this measure proposed.

LORD DENMAN said, that the Amendments under consideration involved a question of the most serious importance. The Bill, as it was drawn up, gave to every criminal who did not like his conviction the power to move to set it aside in a court of law. This was a principle which he did not think had as yet been fully discussed.

Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Tuesday, August 22, 1848.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-20 Bankrupts' Release.
Reported.-Millbank Prison; Fever (Ireland); Dublin
Police; Local Acts.

3o and passed:-Sugar Duties: Sheep, &c., Contagious
Disorders Prevention.

PETITIONS PRESENTED.

By Sir Edward Buxton, from Charles Miller, M.A., Vicar of Harlow, in the Old Diocese of London, respecting the Revenues of the Church of England. By Mr. Fortescue, from the Inhabitants of the Borough of Barnstaple, for an Alteration of the Law respecting the Church of England Clergy.-By Mr. J. Wilson, from the Sugar Refiners of London, against the Proposition for the Admission of Foreign Refined Sugar. -By Edward Bunbury, from the West Suffolk Lodge of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, for the Extension of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.-By Mr. Moffatt, from Shipowners, and Others, of Dartmouth, for a Repeal of the Navigation Laws.-By Colonel Boyle, from the Ratepayers of the Parish of Frome Selwood, in the County of Somerset, for an Alteration of the Poor Law. By Mr. Henley, from the Guardians of the Thame Union, in the Counties of Oxford and Buckingham, against the Poor Law Union District Schools Bill.-By Sir Lucius O'Brien, from the Grand Jury of the County of Clare, for selecting the River Shannon as the Outpost for America.-By Mr. Moffatt, from Charles William Gregory, Managing Owner of the Steam Ship "Connaught Ranger," for Inquiry into the Conduct of the Revenue Officers, as regards that Vessel.

SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
Bill read a third time.

LORD G. BENTINCK had an additional clause to propose, and said: Sir, it will be in the recollection of the House that when this Bill was in Committee I moved a clause, the offect of which would be to place the English refiner on the same footing with foreigners. At that time, unfortunately, five-sixths of the House were absent, and having been defeated under such LORD CAMPBELL observed, that the circumstances as these, I think I am perHouse of Commons had had this subject fectly justified in trying my luck on this before them during the whole of the pre-occasion. All I ask is this, that the Eng

are required to prevent fraud. These bond warrants and securities are, in my opinion, quite sufficient to protect the revenue. Indeed, during the last fourteen years that the refiners have been permitted to refine in bond, there has not been so much as one single conviction of any one for an attempt at fraud. I am not surprised that there should be such a petition from the home refiners as that which was this day presented. It was because the Government wanted to make the refining in bond compulsory that that petition was presented. Had the Government proposed to make the refining in bond optional, it would be gratefully accepted. The spirit of the petition is that the home refiners should be protected against the Englishman who is now permitted to refine in bond for exportation, and that the foreigner should not have a monopoly against the English refiner. I hold in my hand a letter from Messrs. Goodhard and Patrick, on the difficulty of refining in bond. [The noble Lord read the letter. The writer complained of the system of compelling all refiners to work in bond, and said that the supposed danger to the revenue from the plan of Lord George Bentick was all moonshine. The refiners were ready to give every security against fraud. Indeed, for thirteen years refining in bond had been

lishman may be put on an equal footing with the subjects of Holland, Belgium, and Hanover-that the Englishman refining the sugar in England shall be permitted to enter his sugar without paying a duty upon it, whether it be British colonial or foreign sugar, and not be obliged, as he now is, in order to obtain an equal privilege with the Dutchman, to carry his sugar over to Holland, and bring it back here. I hold in my hand some English refined sugar that was obliged to take a voyage to Holland to become naturalised Dutch sugar, in order to enjoy equal privileges with foreign sugar in the English market. I remember the indignation with which all Her Majesty's Ministers used to inveigh against the navigation laws and their protecting clauses. They used to complain that Brazilian sugar had to go to the Cape of Good Hope in order to be entitled to the privileges of colonial sugar. They also inveighed against the necessity of sending raw produce to the United States of America in order to entitle it to come in as American produce. All I ask is this, that when the sugar is refined in bond it may be sent back to the locks of the Crown, where it will remain side by side with packages of similar foreign sugar, be permitted to pay the same duty with the foreign sugar next to it, and then be entered for home consumption. It ap-carried on in this country, and no single pears to me that a proposition so reasonable cannot be resisted in this House. Sir, I am told that there will be great difficulty in accomplishing this-that half a year's more preparation will be necessary in order to enable Government to frame a measure that will preserve the revenue from fraud. I cannot understand how any fraud can be committed. I myself have visited one of these refineries-a bond refinery of special security. I found there a few barriers of iron, and a few padlocks, and a few iron gratings, such as would confine a lady's bullfinch. These were all that were required to prevent any fraud. When I heard that there was all this difficulty in making a bond refinery of special security, I expected to find a building surrounded by ramparts. But, on the contrary, I discovered that the revenue required no protection beyond that which is usually given by the continual presence of a customhouse officer, who never leaves the premises. Such a security is, in fact, found in the regulations of the Customs. There are at present ten different checks in the form of documents, and one in duplicate, making altogether twelve securities that

instance of fraud had been proved.] Let
the House understand that these refiners in
bond do not ask to be permitted to refine
sugar in bond for home consumption
brought here in unprivileged ships. They
are willing to surrender the privilege which
they now enjoy, as regards refining in bond
for foreign exportation, and they ask to
be permitted to enter their sugar, being
British colonial sugar-and I am sure that
they would refine the sugar of Demerara
and Mauritius in bond-and to pay the fo-
reign duty upon it. The hon. Member
for Westbury has stated that the freight
and charges of sugar from Holland to this
country would be at the rate of 2s. 6d.
per cwt. Are the English refiners to be
forced to have recourse to this humiliating
and expensive process of sending their
sugar over to Holland in order to become
naturalised and be entitled to the privileges
of the English market?
to Holland and back again is from 1s. 6d.
to 2s. 6d. per cwt., while the freight and
charges of sugar from Holland to Hull at
this time is only 9d. per cwt. I am aware
that Messrs. Goodhard and Patrick have
not succeeded in obtaining the consent of

The conveyance

and 9th Vic., c. 91, in the trade of Refining Sugar in bond for exportation, to enter the products extracted from the same for home consumption, anything in the aforesaid Act or Acts, or any other Act to the contrary notwithstanding, at the rates of Duties levied upon Foreign Sugar, as set forth in the third Schedule of this Act, under the same regulations as are now, or may hereafter, be applied by Her Majesty's Officers of Customs to the exportation of such Sugar; Provided always, That such person or persons as aforesaid shall previously give bond to the satisfaction of Her Ma

Sugar only as shall have been imported in ships privileged under the Navigation Laws to import Sugar for entry to home consumption."

Clause brought up and read a first time. On the question that it be read a second time,

the Customs to enter their sugar as white clayed sugar. They carry on a great trade by refining sugar for foreign and home consumption. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury bench, how they mean to deal with the Dutch treaty? How can they exclude sugars manufactured in the same way as Messrs. Goodhard and Patrick's? These gentlemen do not presume to say that sugars are brought to this stan-jesty's Commissioners of Customs to use such dard by being white clayed. It is by going through a process of refining. Is the Government prepared to say that no sugars can go through the process of, literally speaking, claying, but the sugars of the country of which clayed sugars are now the growth and produce? Do you mean to bring up this question of growth and produce to suit your present purpose? When it did not suit your purpose you made no such distinction. If you are not prepared to stop the refined sugar of Calcutta, and Bagshaw's sugar, how will you prevent the sugar of Holland from coming in? If you do not prohibit the sugars of Holland from coming in, with what face can you say to Messrs. Goodhard and Patrick, "We know from your locker that your sugars are of the same standard and go through the same process as white clayed sugars as the sugars of Holland; we will permit the Holland sugar to come in and pay 21s. 7d. duty; but we will not permit your sugar to come in for home consumption, because we know from our locker over your refinery that this sugar has been refined in the same way that the sugars of Holland are refined?" Is it not a humiliating circumstance that Englishmen must send their manufactures ahroad in order that they may be placed on an equal footing with the produce of foreign countries? Have we not a right to say that this is a foreign-loving Government, a Government that prefers the interest of foreigners to the interest of Englishmen? All I ask is, that you will give fair play to the energy, skill, and enterprise of your own countrymen, and will not put a ban on the refiners of England, while you hold out an advantage to the refiners of foreign countries. I beg leave to move the insertion of the following

clause :

"And whereas it is expedient to admit Sugar, without payment of Duty, to be refined for home consumption, under the lock of the Crown; Be it further Enacted, That it shall be lawful for any person or persons who may be now, or who may be hereafter, engaged, under the provisions of the Acts of the 3rd and 4th Will. IV., c. 61, and 8th

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER rose to repeat the opposition which on a former occasion he gave to the proposition of the noble Lord, and expressed his regret that the noble Lord should have thought it necessary to have gone over the same ground again. The noble Lord argued, that certain privileges ought to be granted to our countrymen as a matter of justice. There were undoubtedly great advantages attending a general system of refining in bond. This he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had never denied for a moment: on the contrary, he had stated them on a former occasion. On the other hand, there were great difficulties in the way. The Government at present could not clearly see their way to the adoption of a general system; but between this and the next Session they intended to consider the subject. He had had several conferences on the subject with refiners both of the town and country; and they perfectly concurred in the views of the Government, that though a general system had great advantages, yet it was surrounded with great practical difficulties. If such a system were adopted, it must be adopted universally, and at present they did not see their way to it. They stated, in a memorial to the Government, that the subject involved many practical difficulties; that the system would impose many vexatious restrictions; and that at this late period of the Session it would be impossible to prepare a well-digested and comprehensive scheme. A petition had been presented to the House, signed by every refiner in London but two against the proposal of the noble Lord. The noble Lord was not therefore correct in saying, that this was the request of the refiners in London. The noble Lord said, it was to the compulsory part of the Government proposition that

the refiners objected; but the principal part of the refiners in London told him, that unless the measure was made universally compulsory, they did not see any safety to the revenue. He could not perceive what injustice could be done by putting all parties on the same footing who carried on the trade of the country. Any question respecting the foreign refiner did not apply to persons refining in bond, but to the great body of refiners. The duty imposed on Dutch refiners was a reasonable protection to English refiners, and by it justice was done to all parties. He confessed it was impossible for him to see that, because refined foreign sugar was admitted into this country, therefore the refiner in bond should be allowed to do what the great body of the trade were not allowed to do. The Chairman of the Customs, to whom this question had been referred, satisfied himself that it was impossible to secure the revenue if the noble Lord's proposition were adopted; and when the noble Lord talked of twelve restrictions against fraud, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was afraid they came under the description of being paper securities, and not real securities. If fraud could be detected, there would be an end of the difficulty, as the guilty party might be punished. But the difficulty here was to detect the fraud, against the perpetration of which those papers afforded no security whatever. He was not arguing against the general principle of refining in bond, but against the proposal of the noble Lord. That proposal was dangerous to the revenue, injurious to the fair trader, and opposed by the great body of the trade. He hoped, therefore, the House would affirm its previous decision, and not adopt, against the general wish of the parties interested, the proposal of the noble Lord. The noble Lord had asked how Dutch sugar was to be excluded from this country. The only ground upon which Dutch sugar was admitted into this country was, that it was the manufacture of that country. All the sugar from India came in as raw sugar. Dutch raw sugar was inadmissible, but Dutch manufactured sugar was admissible on paying the duties. It was only as refined sugar it was admissible. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) considered the proposal of the noble Lord to be unjust to all parties engaged in the refining trade of this country. If the refiner in bond paid the duty in the first instance, then no injury whatever was inflicted on any body, and the refining trade remained on the same footing

as the general trade of the country. The Government would direct its attention to the subject during the recess, in the hope of adopting some general measure that would apply to all parties.

MR. BERNAL said, all sugars, not merely foreign sugars, but British colonial sugars, should be admitted to the refiners of this country for the benefit of all parties. He believed that to be perfectly practicable, and that the chemical and mechanical skill of the Board of Excise would be sufficient to guard the revenue against fraud. The state of the sugar market showed that the House had been acting most ruinously towards those engaged in the sugar trade. The introduction of the Sugar Duties Bill, and the discussions upon it, had driven down the market 3s. the cwt., and had extracted from the pockets of the sugar growers perhaps 31. per hogshead. The refiners in Whitechapel had been selling at 50s. the cwt. That sum included the reduced duty of 13s. a cwt., 4s. for freight, and 2s. for charges. How was the unfortunate person who produced this sugar to cultivate his estates under such circumstances? The real question now was, whether our colonies were worth preserving or not. You will at least reduce your colonies to such a state of ruin and distress, that it will take years to restore them to a condition in which they will be of use to the mother country. The consequence of the legislation of that House with regard to the West Indies would be, that estates would be abandoned, labourers thrown out of employment, and, the colonies returning to a state of barbarism, dissatisfaction would be produced at home and abroad, and injury inflicted upon every one of the interests of this great empire.

MR. GOULBURN thought it would be well that some general system of refining in bond should be adopted; but as the Session was so far advanced, and the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had held out hopes of a measure on the subject being introduced next Session, he should give his vote against the proposition of the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn.

MR. HERRIES said, it was admitted on all hands that the rejection of the proposi tion of his noble Friend the Member for King's Lynn would inflict great injustice on English industry and English capital; and all the answer that the Government could give was, that they were not skilful enough to find a remedy. The Government would soon have to repent of their policy with regard to our West Indian

colonies. Every packet brought them in- | had not proposed a system of permanent telligence of the dangers which they were protection for the colonies; but it was not creating in the colonies. Every packet for the interest of the British colonists told them how precarious their tenure of themselves that any hope of the Imperial the colonies was becoming, in consequence Legislature returning to the system of of their legislation. Lord Grey, in a re- protective duties should be held out. He cent despatch to the colonies, had told believed that nothing could be more fatal them that they must no longer look to to their prosperity. The right hon. Genthe mother country for protection-they tleman had blamed his (Mr. Labouchere's) must be prepared to enter into full noble Friend, Lord Grey, because he had competition with foreigners altogether un- stated in a despatch to the West Indies aided by the British Government. That that they must ultimately look for unrewas not the way in which to govern this stricted competition with the colonies of great empire-to preserve our colonial or other countries. Why, there was only one any other interest. The Government had point on which the Committee of that involved themselves in the greatest incon- House which had recently sat upon the sistency, and had not even had the courage West Indian question were unanimously to carry out their own principles. They agreed-he believed that there was only had abandoned free trade, whilst their mea- one dissentient voice to the opinion that sure of protection was so paltry that it the West Indian colonies must eventually would be of no service to those for whom look for unrestricted competition with foit professed to be brought forward. It reign countries, namely, the noble Lord who was not denied that the Act of 1846 had presided over the Committee; and yet the given the greatest encouragement to the right hon. Gentleman had complained of cupidity of those who were concerned in Lord Grey having expressed himself to the carrying on of the slave trade, whilst the colonists to the same effect. [Mr. at the same time it had brought ruin upon HERRIES had not advocated permanent, the colonies. This miserable expedient but merely temporary protection.] He did must have the effect of destroying the loy- not know what the right hon. Gentleman alty of our colonies, and their ultimate se- meant by temporary protection." His verance from the mother country-a cata- hon. Friend the Chairman of Ways and strophe which he was sure would be as Means (Mr. Bernal) had said that this Bill much deplored by the occupants of the had had the effect of knocking down the Treasury benches as any other men in that prices very much in the sugar market. House. Now, he held in his hand a statement which he found in the City article of the Times newspaper of that day, which he thought was very much at variance with the statement of his hon. Friend. article stated that, notwithstanding the hostility that was exhibited by the Jamaica press to the Ministerial measures, prices had risen considerably. It could not be disputed, therefore that his hon. Friend's statement as to this Bill having caused a reduction in prices in the West Indies, was not correct.

MR. LABOUCHERE complained that the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had failed to show any reasons for his determination to vote for the proposition of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn; he had preferred making an attack upon the policy of the present Government to defending his intended vote. He could assure the House that he would be the last man to deny that the present state of the West Indian colonies was such as to inspire every lover of this country, in common with the Members of the Government, with the greatest anxiety and alarm. He never had disputed the fact that great distress prevailed in those colonies, and that any remedies which they could fairly apply to that distress it was their duty at once to adopt. But the House should bear in mind that the English colonies were not the only ones labouring under distress. Cuba, in which slavery was rife, and the colonial possessions of the French, were at present suffering from great distress. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) opposed the Government proposition because they

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MR. HUME would vote for the proposition of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn, because he protested against a law which compelled the English consumer to pay the expense which was incurred by the English importer being obliged to take his sugar to Holland to have it refined. The Government should not suffer an inefficient Custom-house to impede a measure of justice and benefit to all classes. The Government said that they were not yet prepared with the necessary arrangements for carrying into effect the intentions of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn; but why

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