765 The Cheltenham {SEPT. 1} sufficient refutation of the charge. I must | Committee. I learn from you, Sir, that say, I never heard a clearer case than Mr. technically this is no breach of privilege, Craven Berkeley's; and the decisions of because an Election Committee is appointthe Committee were unanimous, except ed by an Act of Parliament, and by that upon the last point which came before Act is directed to be constituted of Memthem. Mr. Gardner, the Conservative can-bers of this House. But, if this had been a Select Committee, acting by the order didate, had given a notice in general terms, respecting acts of bribery which had been and appointment of the House exclusively committed during the election; and heif such a charge had been made against claimed the seat on the ground that Mr. it, I apprehend it would have been such a Berkeley had been disqualified, though he breach of the privileges of this House that (Mr. Gardner) was in a considerable mino- we could not have abstained from calling rity. The question was one of much nicety, any gentleman who had been guilty of it and we divided upon it in the proportion of to the bar. But, what is the case here? two to three; and if I had thought fit to An Election Committee, with three out of concur in the opinion expressed by the its five Members who were the political Chairman of the Committee, who is opposed friends of the gentleman whe has now to me in politics, and by another Member dared to impugn their conduct, has been of it, who agrees with him, Mr. Gardner charged by him with partiality, corruption, would now have been the sitting Member and injustice. And then the hon. and for Cheltenham. After what I have said, learned Gentleman the Member for PlyI hope the House will excuse me from mouth, whose legal reputation is known to all the empire and to all the world, is setaking any further notice of the matter. lected, above all, as a person supposed to be ignorant of law; when it turns out that he was the very Member to whose influence-an influence just on account of his legal reputation-it was owing that the claimant of the seat, who was of the hon. and learned Member's own party, was prevented from obtaining it. I could not resist rising and expressing my feelings of indignation against such a charge. MR. J. O'CONNELL quite agreed with the observation which had fallen from the hon. and learned Member, that unless this very unjust accusation had been made against the constitution of the tribunal appointed for the trial of the petition, it would not have been worth his while to bring the matter forward. He regretted exceedingly that a gentleman, who was formerly a Member of that House, should, in the excitement of an election, have indulged in the unjustifiable language which he was reported to have uttered. It was a most unfair thing to cast an imputation upon any Gentleman for speaking as a friend to gentlemen with whom he had a professional acquaintance. He was not a member of the bar, but he was acquainted with many of the Parliamentary counsel, and he should think it very hard if he were accused of a want of impartiality because he had exchanged a word with Mr. Serjeant Wrangham or with Mr. Serjeant King-justly attacked must feel too strong in lake. LORD G. BENTINCK: I think I should be wanting in duty to the House, if I did not rise to express my indignation at the outrage which has been committed against the five honourable men who were the Members of this Committee. I hope that the noble Lord opposite, representing the Government, will also express the indignation which is universally felt by us that a gentleman, once a Member of this House, should have dared to make such an attack as this on Gentlemen acting judicially in their office of Members of an Election VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I feel no difficulty in expressing my deep regret, that my hon. Friend the late Member for Cheltenham should have been led away by the irritation of the moment, to express himself in terms so unbecoming and undeserved of five Gentlemen who were acting in the performance of their duty, and under the obligations of an oath, because they have come to a decision which is in accordance with strict justice. I am sure, however, that the Members who have been so un their own personal character, and the re- I House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Saturday, September 2, 1848. sion, will, in a calmer moment, regret hav- | recollected by almost every one then in ing uttered it.* the House that, when it was asked whether there was any intention on the part of noble Lords opposite to renew their opposition to the Bill on this its second reading, the noble Lord who took a lead in the opposition replied that, for his part, he should be 100 miles off at twelve o'clock that day; and the perfect silence of all other Peers entitled Ministers to conclude that all opposition to the measure was at an end. The noble Lord opposite took an opportunity well suited to the value of his arguments, and showed his own estimate of that value by bringing them under the notice of the House at such a time and under such circumstances as he had addressed the House. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-20 Copper and Lead Duties. &c. COPPER AND LEAD DUTIES BILL. EARL GRANVILLE moved the Second Reading of this Bill. The EARL of DESART said, that he considered his noble Friend had been perfectly justified in the course which he yesterday took with respect to the measure then before their Lordships. It was fitting that such a Bill should have been opposed on its first reading, and he should now oppose it on the second reading. There was no reason whatever why a Bill of that kind should be hurried through the House of Lords at such an advanced period of the Session. It was a Bill, as they all knew, the object of which was to extend the experiment of free trade; now, as that experiment had not been by any means successful, he did think that Parliament ought to resist its extension until the duration of its period of trial had been somewhat prolonged. No one could deny that the Bill then under consideration was part of the systematic attack that had been for some time in progress against the commerce and the agriculture of this country, and which had grievously injured both. Ministers were now resolved to attack the mining interest, and he hoped that the House of Lords would make some effort to put an end to this rash and undignified course of legislation. He should certainly vote against the Bill. The MARQUESs of LANSDOWNE trusted that the noble Lord was not present when it was arranged that no opposition should that day be offered to the progress of the Copper and Lead Duties Bill. It must be *It seems proper to mention that Mr. Craven Berkeley addressed letters of apology to Mr. Roundell Palmer and Sir William Clay, which were published and accepted by those Gentlemen as full satisfaction for the offence complained of. The EARL of FALMOUTH contended that the course taken by Her Majesty's Government fully justified the opposition had great reason to complain that a Bill of of his noble Friend. He thought the House this kind should have been brought before them at such a period of the Session as the present. EARL GREY repeated the statement, that there had been an understanding not to debate the Bill that day. As to the delay of the Bill in the other House, that was entirely owing to those who opposed it. More than once the stages of it had been postponed for the accommodation of hon. Members who were adverse to the Bill. LORD WYNFORD complained that the Bill had been brought up to that House too late. He had been no party to any such arrangement as that to which noble Lords opposite had referred. EARL GRANVILLE said, it had been fully agreed that the discussion was to be taken on the first, and not upon the second reading. The EARL of DESART stated that, if he had known of any such arrangement he should not have troubled the House with any observations on the subject. Bill read 2a. HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, September 4, 1848. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-3 and passed :-Savings (Channel Islands); Post Horses Licenses, &c.; Spirits (Dealers in); British Spirits Warehousing; Distilling from Sugar; Slave Trade (Equator); Nuisances and Contagious Diseases; Controverted Elections; Battersea Park, &c.; Royal Military Asylum; Poor Removal (No. 2); Poor Law Union Charges (No. 2); Poor Law PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Parish of St. Leonard, each Parish in the Metropolis. From the Mayor and Corporation of Cork, for a Reconstruction of the Municipal Law of Ireland. CITY OF LONDON SEWERS BILL. The EARL of RADNOR moved the insertion of a clause, the object of which was to limit the operation of the Bill to two years. The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE opposed the Amendment. Their Lordships divided : - For the Amendment 4; Against it 5: Majority 1. The Bill read 3a and passed. COPPER AND LEAD DUTIES BILL. Bill read 3a according to order. that would have the effect of tying up their hands. On Thursday evening, when I told Lord Lansdowne and Lord Granville that I intended to oppose the Bill on the first reading, I said that I did so, not only as objecting to the measure, but to mark my opinion of the conduct of the House of Commons to our House in sending up a Bill of such importance, which they had before them in May, and might, therefore, have passed months earlier. Lord Lansdowne said that it would be more convenient to him to take the debate, as I proposed, on Friday than on Saturday; but not a word was said about the opposition ending with the first debate." He (the Earl of Desart) felt it his duty to oppose, at this late period of the Session, the further progress of the Bill. After a few words in explanation from the Marquess of LANSDOWNE, LORD MOUNTCASHEL said, he felt it his duty, not only to oppose this mischievous Bill, but to give it every obstruction in his power. Their Lordships then divided on ques- EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. On the Motion that the Bill be read 3a, LORD MONTEAGLE said: I trust I may stand excused if I presume to call your Lordships' attention to this Bill, respectOn the Motion that the Bill do pass, The EARL of DESART said, he wished offered by the Government, nor has there ing which no explanation has been hitherto to remove a misconception that prevailed, indeed been one word spoken in this House. that, in consequence of what had been It is nevertheless by far the most imporstated on Friday night by Lord Redesdale, tant financial measure of the Session; and no further opposition would be given to the no less from my conviction of the conseBill. He would be no party to any such understanding. The Bill had passed with quences to which it may lead, and the inconsiderate haste through the Commons, explained, than from the public offices I have dangerous inferences it may suggest, if unand he must still assert his right to oppose filled, and the public duties I am still called it in every stage. To show that the noble on to perform, do I feel myself under the Lord (Lord Redesdale) merely spoke for obligation of addressing your Lordships for himself when he said he would give no a short time. This Bill practically sancfurther opposition to the Bill, he (the Earl tions an addition of two millions to the pubof Desart) would read an extract of alic debt, to be contracted in time of peace. letter received from that Nobleman on the It does so, likewise, without the motive or subject:justification of any new or more extended "I will state to you exactly all that passed be-works for our national defence, or any intween Lord Lansdowne and myself on Friday evening, as to further opposition to the Copper crease of our military or naval force or estaand Lead Duties Bill. Just before the House blishments. On the contrary, those precauadjourned, he asked me, across the table, whether tionary measures, which at the opening of I intended to oppose the further stages of the the Session were considered to be indispenmeasure, as it was important that they should sable, which were recommended from the know; my reply was, I can only answer for myself that I hope to be many miles from this place Throne, and which were submitted to Parliaby twelve o'clock to-morrow.' I was not in a ment by responsible Ministers to the House position to answer for others, especially for Lord of Commons, in the shape of increased estiFalmouth, and those personally interested in the change of duties; nor had I had that communica-mates, have since been abandoned and withtion with them as to their wishes and intentions drawn. The votes in supply have been rewhich would have justified me in saying anything duced by a sum of between 800,000l. and VOL. CI. 900,0007., and yet we find ourselves compelled to borrow 2,000,000l. in a time of peace, in order to bring even to some plausible balance our income and our expenditure. Surely it behoves us, under such circumstances, to pause and inquire into the causes which produce so unsatisfactory a result. It is essential to examine carefully whether this bespeaks any falling-off in our national resources, affecting our public credit, and diminishing our powers of production and industry in peace, or diminishing our power by sea or land in case of war. My Lords, at the opening of the present laborious Session, I moved for an account which casts some light upon the subject, and to which I trust your Lordships' attention has already been directed. This account exhibits the whole of the annual supplies voted by Parliament in each year since 1835. I shall not trouble your Lordships with giving the detail of the successive years, but I must be permitted to lay before you the comparison of the first and last years of the series: Estimates voted.] 1835. 1848. 1848. Governments of Lord Grey and of Lord Melbourne, and I may indeed include the Government of the noble and gallant Duke immediately preceding, vigorous and effectual steps were taken to enforce the most severe and rigid economy throughout all branches of the public service. In a statement which I made in the House of Commons in July, 1833, I was enabled to show that the estimates had been then reduced 2,727,000l. below the economical suggestions of the Finance Committee of 1817; that in the salaries of the great departments upwards of 1,000,000l. had been reduced between the years 1821 and 1833, and upwards of 5,689 offices had been abolished. My Lords, the same spirit of economy continued to influence the Government for several years subsequently; though with a diminished result. No sooner was it generally admitted that the Government were strictly economical, than somewhat of a contrary spirit began to show itself in Parliament. All imaginable claims, public and private, and all grievances, real or imaginary, found earnest Parliamentary advocates, perExcess in tinacious and zealous supporters. The Baron de Bode demanded his hundreds of thousands, and Staffordshire rose in defence of a countryman. Danish claims called forth the sympathy of Sheffield, Hull, and Manchester; French claims, Spanish claims, losses for goods on shore, losses for ships at sea, losses for book debts, all followed in quick succession, and were more or less successful. The functions of the Government and of the House of Commons, seemed for the time to be reversed. The House of Commons, more especially in advocating expense, placed itself in a false position. Nor was the application of these new principles confined to the cases I have described. It was extended to the naval and military services 14,122,000 22,878,000 8,756,000 likewise. My Lords, I consider this to have been most unwise. I hold it to be of the very first importance that the armed force of this country should learn, under all circumstances, to look up to the responsible Government, and to their commanding officers for any increase of pay or allowances, and for maintaining the efficiency of the service, rather than to the House of Commons. But this was not permitted. Take as an example the Navy, on which, as your Lordships have perceived, the largest increase of expenditure has taken place, namely, an increase from 4,245,000l. to 7,764,000l. in thirteen years. Your Lordships cannot but remember the Motions made and repeated, Session after Session, 6,188,000 7,012,000 824,000 11,729,000 17,577,000 5,848,000 14,122,000 21,385,000 7,263,000 393,000 393,000 In the present state of Europe I am not inclined to question what may be required for the strength and protection of the empire, although an increase of no less a sum than 5,848,000l. on a total of 11,729,000l., or more than 50 per cent, has taken place in about thirteen years. Nor do I wish to cast blame upon my noble Friends in the Government. For much of the increased expenditure incurred in the last fourteen or fifteen years, I hardly hold them or their predecessors in office directly responsible. The blame, if blame it be, may be traced to another source, and rests in a great measure with Parliament itself. During the 773 Exchequer {SEPT. 4} to compel the Government to an increase | ingly appropriated for harbours of refuge; an expense to be considered hardly more of the estimates. It was stated that our ships were under-manned, that our dock- than as preliminary to the votes for the yards were neglected, that the number of same service which must inevitably follow. men-of-war kept at sea were too few. The You require packet communication with India-it costs you 50,000l. a year, and But I purthe marines, the full the half pay, pay, sers, the chaplains, the old flag-officers, the costs the Company as much more. the young lieutenants, all found friends ready need not do more than entreat your Lordgoryou, to survey to state complaints and to demand redress. ships to look round The same course was pursued in other geous splendour of the House in which we branches of the public service, and the sit; one glance, if it does not justify, will result has been in multiplied ways to swell at least serve to account for the lavish exIn addition to penditure which is taking place in every the annual expenditure. this, a system was introduced, and found quarter. These votes in supply are not favour in many quarters, of transferring the only charges with which we have to heavy local charges to the public Treasury; deal. Your legislation has in late years new duties were undertaken by the State, become bolder and bolder in the tasks unfounded for the most part, it is true, on dertaken-tasks that have been, in many just and noble principles, but all leading to instances, nobly performed. But in proincreased demands on the Exchequer. It portion as the steps to be taken are bolder, is far from my wish or intention to con- so they require more preliminary inquiry demn this. I am stating facts, not pre- and investigation. Hence the necessity of suming to censure. Many of these charges various Commissions of Inquiry; proceedhave been, and still are, incurred in ings highly useful when their functions are the performance of great national duties; not misapplied. In an incomplete account but those duties are costly; and when which is before Parliament, it is shown we have sanctioned and incurred the that the expense of these proceedings, for expenditure, it is childish to grumble at a very few years, has exceeded 1,129,0001. are A further head of charge will be found in paying the bill. It is thus that we called on to pay 400,000l. for criminal the new payments cast on the Consolidated prosecutions, and for other expenses hither- Fund. You justly require an improved to borne on the county rate. It is thus system for registering births, marriages, that we are also called on to provide and deaths-you require your voters to be 193,000l. for poor-law administration, and registered likewise, and they sturdily rerelief. For the improvement of our crimi- fuse to pay even one shilling to the public nal law and our secondary punishments officer who tests and records their qualifiimportant experiments are made; and at cations. Pentonville, Parkhurst, and Perth, prisons are maintained at a cost approaching to 70,0007. No sooner is the great improvement of railways extensively adopted than Parliament urgently require a department to be established for its regulation and control-an estimate..for 17,000l. is the consequence. Slowly and reluctantly we admit the truth that ignorance is an enemy with which the State is bound to struggle -the performance of this Christian and social duty demands an annual expenditure of 200,000l. You are persuaded by benevolent men that factory labour requires to be regulated by Act of Parliament-that the condition of the females in mines, of the handloom weavers and of other classes, requires investigation and control. All this, too, requires money-and it is voted. The state of the narrow seas-the interests of our commercial navy-the new conditions developed by steam navigation-are pressed on your attention; 150,000l. are accord You condemn all judicial and legal fees; those are, therefore, abolished, but the salaries and fees reappear as compensations, and are defrayed by the public in place of by the suitors. All this enhances the amount of public expenditure. I might carry this investigation much further; but I think I have sufficiently proved what are some of the causes of our increased expenditure. I must again repeat that I am far indeed from wishing to censure all that I have enumerated. In many respects it has been wise, and the public But when have reaped a full benefit from this application of the national income. the decision made has been that of Parliament itself-when these services have been called for by public opinion and sanctioned by the approbation of the public-it is weak and undignified to grieve over the inevitable cost, and to expect we can at once secure these expensive benefits, and These various refuse to submit to the burdens which they inevitably occasion. 2C2 |