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revenue which exhibits any considerable diminution is that of the Post Office, for which, I am ready to admit, to a certain extent, my own personal responsibility. But in so doing, I am at least justified in saying that I never either allowed myself to be led astray, or still less did I deceive Parliament by giving countenance to the over sanguine hopes of those who were more visionary than practical-I never

House of Commons, and, I may add, the public, required from the Government, could be made without a very considerable financial sacrifice. I announced this con

increased heads of charge, be it remem- | the ordinary income shows a very considerbered, greatly exceed the 2,000,000l. able increase. The only head of ordinary which you are this year compelled to borrow. I have thus endeavoured to trace much of our expenditure to its source. Allow, me, now my Lords, to review very briefly the state of our public income, in order to judge whether it is from any permanent falling-off in our national resources, that a necessity for the present Bill arises. If this were the case, we might indeed be justified in feeling mistrust and alarm. But such is far from being the fact. Notwith-stated that the great change which the standing we have repealed taxes that would be in themselves sufficient to constitute the whole revenue of many great European Powers, notwithstanding the difficulties and losses which commercial distress and Con-viction at the hazard of much unpoputinental revolutions have produced, I find nothing in the state of the revenue that is calculated to excite the alarm even of the most timid, or that can shake our confidence in the powers of this empire, either for maintaining unimpaired our public credit, or for defending our national honour, and our national interests. Let our friends throughout the world rejoice with us in the causes of thankfulness with which we are blessed; and do not let our enemies, if we have any such, delude themselves by the false expectation that our resources are in a state of decay. The contrary, I believe to be the fact, if we only use rightly the blessings which surround us, and the manifold advantages placed within our reach-if we are wisely economical-and if we are energetic, patient, and enduring. I have already compared the expenditure of 1834 with that of 1848. I shall now institute a similar comparison between the income of the same two years; endeavouring thus to deal fairly and justly with the whole subject. The account stands as follows:

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larity and many bitter reproaches. The event has proved that my anticipations were well founded. But the sacrifice has been compensated by the innumerable advantages, both direct and indirect, of the change. Neither let it be thought that the amount of 500,000l. loss, is solely to be attributed to the penny postage. The increased accommodation given to the public-the multiplied and more extended deliveries of letters--the doubling of the mails-the expenditure incidental to railways-are all charges which must, to a certain extent, at least, have fallen on the Post Office revenue, at whatever rate of postage that revenue had continued to be collected. Having thus remarked upon the state both of the income and expenditure, I shall proceed to observe on the mode in which the present Bill proposes to meet the deficiency of 2,000,000l., which we are unfortunately called on to supply by incurring increased debt. I begin by admitting that my noble Friends have a precedent for the proposal they now make to us in the present Bill. A similar course was resorted to on a former occasion, and it was found to produce no sensible public inconvenience. Even if this were not so, I should be indisposed to argue against it, under the peculiar circumstances of the present Session, however I may regret its necessity. But I cannot wholly shut my eyes to its danger. The power which this Bill confers on the Treasury is of a most questionable as well as extraordinary kind. To enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at his own will and pleasure, with or without notice, to go into the market, to create stock, or to sell Exchequer-bills, is, in fact, to give him an authority to alter the value of the property of all the hold

ers of public securities, whether funded or floating. When an ordinary loan is contracted, the requisite formalities, the knowledge of the sum to be contracted for, the declared terms of the bidding, the open competition, place a certain limit upon the inconvenience which, under the enactments of this Bill, are very possible to arise. But I admit that the amount to be raised is small-that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prudentand the precedent is in his favour. This defence, however, assumes the circumstances of the present case to be the same as in the former case to which I have alluded. Such is not the fact. In two important features the cases essentially differ, if the alternative of issuing Exchequer-bills under this Act should be resorted to. In the first place, the amount of railway bonds and debentures now in the market, circulating freely from hand to hand, bearing a high rate of interest, and considered perfectly secure, have introduced a formidable competition to the unfunded debt. Next, the habits and practice of the London bankers have of late years varied. Formerly, bankers were accustomed to invest large balances on Exchequer-bills, which now, rightly or wrongly I stop not to inquire, are employed through bill brokers, on the security of commercial papers: this, again, lessens the demands for Government floating securities. Further, in earlier times, the Exchequer-bills held by the Bank were never thrown on the market. By this system the amount of disposable Government paper was reduced, and the value of that which was left at the command of the public was proportionably enhanced. But a further change has likewise taken place. The Bank Act of 1844 has now come into operation; and if its restrictions apply to this loan, should the Bank be again placed in the same position as in October last, the Chancellor may find it impossible to seek accommodation in the usual way; or, if he obtains it, it will be at the price of compelling a refusal of that accommodation required to be given by the Bank to commercial houses in the form of discounts. This furnishes an additional example of the risks which that Act of 1844 is calculated to produce in certain cases, though in cases which I earnestly hope may not be considered as very likely to recur. I have spoken hypothetically, and have suggested a doubt whether the restrictions of the Act of 1844 do apply to this Bill. My own confident belief, however,

is that they do not apply, but that this Bill is a practical repeal, or at least a suspension of that Bill, so far as the 2,000,0007. proposed to be borrowed are concerned. My noble Friends are no doubt astonished at this statement; they are unconscious of their own measure. They

"Never felt what they were doing;
Never dreamt of such a thing."

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If they look at sec. 4, of the present Bill, they will see that the Bank is authorised to make advances to the Treasury on the bills permitted to be issued-" any Act or Acts in anywise to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, let me assume a case in which the Bank reserve was wholly exhausted, or fell below 2,000,000l. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer required an advance of 2,000,000l. of bank notes, under such circumstances, that advance would appear to be repugnant to the Act of 1844. But this Bill would nevertheless justify such advances, "any Act to the contrary notwithstanding." Therefore, under such supposed circumstances, the Bill absolutely repeals the restrictions of that memorable statute of which my noble Friends have been such strenuous and generous champions. In dealing with the question of our finances, I cannot omit touching upon one subject inseparably bound up with this question-I mean the liabilities the public are under to the depositors in savings' banks. I am the more reminded of this, as a Bill respecting savings' banks stands for the third reading this evening. We must never lose sight of the peculiar exigency of that engagement. It differs wholly from the responsibility we assume in relation to the remaining portions of the public debt. The 3 per cents are transferable, but not payable on demand. Exchequer-bills are transferable likewise, and, though payable on demand, yet that is only at certain times, and under established conditions-all being protections to the public which issues the bills. The savings' banks deposits, on the contrary, are not transferable; and with much facility they become debts payable on demand. This distinction is of the utmost importance. Far is it from me to suggest that the security to the depositors is not as perfect as any the public can give, or the depositors can require. But still we are bound to weigh well the consequences of this engagement as affecting the public.

I know that this subject was one which pressed heavily on the mind of the ablest of our commercial and financial

Ministers, Mr. Huskisson. I am convinced | distresses of Ireland. Evil rather than that this liability would not have been in- good is too frequently the consequence of curred by Parliament in 1817, had any one premature debates on subjects of this naforeseen at that time the enormous extent ture. I am satisfied to leave the responsito which the deposits in savings' banks bility with the Government, at the same have since been carried. At the outset time requesting my noble Friend (Lord 500,000l., or 1,000,000l. would have per- Lansdowne) to communicate, as far as he haps been the maximum amount of deposits can do so without indiscretion, the import of contemplated as probable by the most any communications which he has received sanguine. At present the deposits exceed respecting the harvest and the potato crop. 30,000,000l. I am inclined to think that I should hardly have ventured even to make the whole subject requires the most careful this inquiry, but that the silence of Peers and immediate attention of Parliament, with connected with Ireland, in a case where a view of considering whether, when the de- the very existence of our people is at stake, posit reaches a given amount, the public might be condemned in a country where liability might not advantageously be sa- everything is liable to misconstruction, or tisfied by a transfer to the depositor of a rather to misrepresentation. Silence would proportionate amount of stock, the State be interpreted as marking a culpable instill continuing, if it were thought fit, to difference where human lives are at risk. act gratuitously as the broker for the de- The great experiment of the working of positor, reinvesting the interest when re- the poor-law, and more especially the sysquired, and transferring the stock when tem of outdoor relief for the ablebodied, sold. The depositor would thus become is now in progress. To that measure I an ordinary stockholder, and the liability expressed, at the time, my strong objection. to pay on demand would be lessened, with I pointed out what I considered to be its a corresponding increase of security to error in principle-its danger in practice. the public. I cannot close these observa- In those objections I was strongly suptions without some remarks on the present ported by the weight and authority of men state of Ireland, and on the renewed ca- in all respects my superiors, and infinitely lamities which seem unhappily to be im- better entitled to influence the deliberations pending over that country. The famine of your Lordships. I allude more especially for so it is now recognised to have been to my most reverend and noble Friends the produced some of our financial embarrass- Archbishop of Dublin, and the Earl Fitzments in the two last years. Their recur- william. I am not disposed to withdraw or rence may again lead to similar results. retract any one of those former objections. At the outset, the extent of that calamity I see no reason to abandon any of those was unfortunately not appreciated by a opinions. On the contrary, they are congreat and powerful party in this country. firmed by what has occurred, and by what They were led astray, and induced to sus- is still going on. The description given in pect that it was greatly exaggerated by another place by the Chancellor of the ExIrish witnesses, in order to strengthen chequer of the state of Erris, confirms all their demands on the public purse, and my worst forebodings. But I will not at the exaggerated also by the Government of present enhance the difficulties of the questhe day, with a view of carrying their free- tion, or the difficulties of those who administrade measures through Parliament. Both ter this law by any adverse discussion. I suppositions were unfounded. The delu- have carefully abstained from doing so dursion has been dispelled by the fearful real- ing the present Session, unless when actuity. But the peril of a renewed failure is ally compelled to interfere, as by the issue imminent at present. I have understood of the poor-law circular on Mr. Gregory's from declarations made elsewhere, that clause, or by that most unjust mode of proMinisters hold themselves pledged to call ceeding in the superior courts of law, in Parliament together at an early time, cases where a cheap and summary remedy should the exigencies of Ireland render it might have been resorted to. I shall abide necessary to do so. This is but right, for by the issue of the experiment, and by the it should be remembered that nothing has future result of that Parliamentary inquiry been as yet done to meet this misfortune, which is promised in the ensuing Session. should it arise. It is important that such Experience will then settle the question, a declaration should be here repeated. I and decide between the disputants. But should deprecate raising any more general I may say, in passing, that those are discussion on the present occasion, on the greatly deceived who think that the local

REPAYMENT OF IRISH ADVANCES.

1845-6

1846-7
1847-8

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£307,000

312,000
393,000

charges of Ireland are light, or capable of
being borne in many districts. The sup-
position is founded on an entire ignorance,
or misconception, of the facts of the case.
On the contrary, the burdens now cast on
Irish real property, for the purpose of poor-
law relief, infinitely exceed any similar local
charge levied on England even in the times
of the greatest distress. Of course I mean
to compare the taxation in both countries,
with the amount of property in each, on
which that taxation is imposed. And this
brings me to my closing observation. Iment can with justice complain.
have observed with pain that, whilst the
sufferings of Ireland have drawn forth,
very generally, throughout this island the
deepest sympathy, leading to the no-
blest sacrifices-generous sacrifices, which
can never be too gratefully remembered
-by which hundreds and thousands have
been saved from instant death, there has
arisen among the shallow, the impatient,
and the superficial, an absurd notion that
Great Britain might advantageously sever
the connexion between herself and her
western neighbour. I have witnessed with
astonishment the formation of a band of
English repealers, who talk almost as
much nonsense as their colleagues in Con-
federation Hall. They are alike ignorant
of what is due to the honour, the safety,
and the industrial interests of the empire.
They forget that though Irish distress has
cost the empire millions, yet that the em-
pire has also derived millions from Ireland.
They forget that the balances of revenue
actually remitted to the Imperial Exche-
quer from Ireland, and applied here, after
payment of dividends and the payment of
Irish charges, civil and military, have, from
1831 to 1847, exceeded nine millions and
a half sterling. They forget, or are igno-
rant, that, notwithstanding the most de-
plorable distress, the revenue of Ireland
has not fallen off to any great degree, as is
manifest from the following account :-

I have now only to repeat my apologies
for this intrusion on your Lordships' time,
which nothing but a sense of public duty
would have justified, and to express a hope
that neither in the tone nor in the sub-
stance of my observations has there been
any thing to prejudice the public interest,
or any observation of which the Govern-

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The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE did not complain either of the substance or of the temper of the speech of his noble Friend. The Bill, he admitted, was one of the utmost importance, yet still it was one to the passing of which, under present circumstances, no one could object. By the occurrence of a series of unfortunate circumstances they had been compelled to borrow, and they would not have done their duty to their country if they had not brought forward this proposition. They had been compelled to adopt this course by the great indisposition which had been manifested by the public, both within and without the walls of Parliament, to bear the burden of increased taxation. He admitted the necessity of practising to the utmost the most rigid economy; but he contended that at present it was impracticable to bring their expenditure within the limits of their income by any cutting down of establishments only. It was impossible to make any diminution in the naval or military establishments of the country; and sooner than consent to make a sacrifice of this nature, which they felt would be to the detriment of the country, Her Majesty's Ministers would resign the conduct of affairs into other hands, and thus relieve themselves from the responsibility of making the sacrifice. Many of the burdens of which they now complained had been for years accumulating-many were of a merely temporary nature-and many had been forced by Parliament upon an unwilling Government. But he looked forward with a confident hope to the future, as the Government was determined to incur no expenses except such as were absolutely necessary for the public service. Then with regard to the method proposed to be adopted for raising this money. It was a method to which recourse had been had on former occasions, and which was best calculated to meet a case of uncertainty like the one with which they now

production of certain accounts and papers relative to this railway, which was duly served on these parties. No return was, however, made to the order, and, having given notice that he would move that these parties should be called to the bar, he received a written communication promising that the returns should be made, and that the parties were prepared to give the accounts he required. Up to the present moment their Lordships' order was still disobeyed, and the parties in question who had been ordered to attend the House had not done so. The proper course, he believed, would be to inquire whether the parties were in attendance, and then, if they were not, to call for the officer of the House who had served the notice.

LORD CAMPBELL said it would be necessary for his noble Friend to prove that the order requiring the attendance of these parties had been personally served upon them.

had to deal. It would permit the Chan- | order of their Lordships' House. An order cellor of the Exchequer to go into the had been made by their Lordships for the money market at the time which he thought the most requisite, and under the circumstances which he might deem the most favourable; and, as a proof of the feeling among monied men on the subject, he would observe that on the day following the announcement that the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to borrow-and that he meant to borrow in that particular mode there was a marked rise in the funds. He believed that this power was necessary for the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the present financial condition of the country. In the midst of much occasional distressa temporary diminution of our commercial prosperity the result of which had been the necessity of the present measure, he nevertheless believed that there never had been a period in which the commercial, manufacturing, and financial prosperity of the country was in a sounder state; and, though there had been much distress, there was every ground for an enlarged confidence and hope for the future. It would The LORD CHANCELLOR inquired be the imperative duty of the Government whether John Marriner and William Chadto attend to the state of distress in Ire-wick, Chairman and Secretary of the North land, and no pains would be spared by the Government or by the Lord Lieutenant to make themselves acquainted in detail with all the facts connected with that subject. But until they knew the whole extent of the mischief done to the potato crop, it would be impossible for him to say, even hypothetically, that distress would fall upon the Irish people of a nature to demand the attention, the assistance, and the interference of Parliament. All the advices which had been received during LORD CAMPBELL believed that when the last week as to the state of the potato there was any reason to suppose that parcrop were comparatively more favourable, ties went out of the way in order to avoid and stated that the potatoes were not so being personally served with the order of universally affected as had been supposed. their Lordships' House, the personal serIt was only that day that he had received vice might be dispensed with. But neither accounts that the affected potatoes had put of these parties might be aware of the forth fresh appearances, and given indica-order of the House. Their servants might tions of recent growth. He could assure his noble Friend that the state of Ireland would engage the daily attention of Her Majesty's Government until the next meeting of Parliament.

Bill read 3a and passed.

NORTH WALES RAILWAY.

LORD MONTEAGLE rose to bring under the notice of their Lordships the refusal of the Chairman and Secretary of the North Wales Railway, Mr. William Chadwick and Mr. John Marriner, to obey the

Wales Railway, were in attendance?

The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod:I understand, my Lord, that they are not.

Samuel Lethbridge, one of the doorkeepers of their Lordships' House, who was instructed to serve the order requiring the attendance of the parties, was then examined, and stated, in reply to questions from the LORD CHANCELLOR, that he had not served the parties personally in consequence of their absence from home.

have neglected to forward the orders, and it might be the desire of these parties to comply with the order of the House.

LORD MONTEAGLE said, it was quite clear that these parties had intentionally disobeyed their Lordships' order, and that their resistance was founded on a misapprehension of their Lordships' powers, which these parties thought expired with the Session, whereas the powers of that House, unlike those of the other House of Parliament, extended throughout the recess.

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