venue, and that the recipients of charity would not be the sufferers which the public anticipated, then he would make good his case; but he (Lord H. Vane) thought the right hon. Gentleman would be acting very unwisely in attempting to force this measure too hurriedly upon the country. or ten similar institutions. The right hon. Gentleman said that the measure would take away about £700 from St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and that sum would support forty in-patients if they remained in the establishment the whole year. But experience showed that they did not remain SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he did there more than a month or five weeks, not rise to enter into any discussion of the and therefore the effect would be that details of the proposed tax, or of the Bill the number of in-patients who would before them; but he wished to make a be affected was about 400. Add to suggestion in consequence of the nature St. Bartholomew's the eight of the discussion which had taken place. other great hospitals, and they would He thought that it must have become have no fewer than 3,000 or 4,000 poor quite clear to the right hon. Gentleman patients excluded from the London hosthat this proposal to tax charities was re-pitals alone by the effect of this taxation. garded with very great anxiety by hon. What was the amount of revenue which Gentlemen on both sides of the House; it was supposed would be derived from this and further, the right hon. Gentleman had novel principle, which was repugnant to himself very candidly admitted that the the feeling of the whole country, and proposal was of a somewhat complicated which the right hon. Gentleman must and difficult nature. [The CHANCELLOR of have great difficulty in carrying into the EXCHEQUER: No, not the proposal, but operation? He (Mr. Malins) could not the present law.] He feared that the law conceive anything more unpopular than to would not be simplified by the addition diminish the amount of the charitable that the right hon. Gentleman proposed funds of the country; and he would sugto make to it. This was clear, that for gest, not in an adverse spirit-for he the sake of the country at large, and es- cordially supported the Budget, though pecially of those most interested in the he regretted that on this, as on other ocsubject, they should clearly understand casions, the propositions were disfigured what was the course which would be taken by some deformities-that this subject by the Government, and what was the na- should be further considered. The two ture of the proposition. He would there- blots upon the present Budget were the fore suggest that the right hon. Gentle- tax upon clubs, by which, for the sake of man should take until to-morrow to con- getting some £2,000 a year, the right sider what course he would think it right hon. Gentleman had broached a most unto pursue, so as not to involve the House popular principle, and the tax upon chariin any difficulty, and that he should state ties. The right hon. Gentleman had done to-morrow what course he would take on that which neither Pitt nor Peel had Monday. The course which he (Sir John ventured to do; and had violated the Pakington) would suggest was, that on sacred principle that the property of chaMonday, with the Speaker in the chair, rities should be kept intact. He would the Chancellor of the Exchequer should suggest that the right hon. Gentleman make a clear statement of the whole of should between that time and Monday his proposition, and that then he should turn over in his mind the advantages and allow a reasonable time before they were the disadvantages of his proposition, and called upon to come to a vote upon that consider if it would not be the wisest proposition. Without presuming to press and most graceful thing for him to come this particular suggestion, he would sub- down to-morrow, and say that he would mit that, at all events, it would be con- abandon this part of his financial scheme. venient for the right hon. Gentleman to announce to-morrow what course he would take on Monday. MR. MALINS thought that it must be admitted that the proposal to take 3 per cent from every charity in the country was certainly not a light one. St. Bartholomew's Hospital was the greatest hospital in the country; but still there were a great many more MR. KINNAIRD entirely concurred with what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). This was a tax on the very spirit which, of all things, they ought to encourage in the country, and he thought it would be well if his right hon. Friend gave a statement of what he intended to do, and then afforded the House time to consider it. poor. MR. CARDWELL must say he had heard with considerable regret the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) speak of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as if he for the first time had introduced the principle of robbing the That was one of the inconveniences of the present discussion; for, while his right hon. Friend had all along felt that the real debate on the merits of the question, with every consideration of justice and argument, should be reserved till Monday, many objections on one side were stated and insisted on. He was surprised to find this charge made against his right hon. Friend; for he thought, even in the discussion of this question, even if it were not already a matter of history, it could easily be proved that of all the men who had managed the financial or commercial affairs of this country there had been few who had conferred upon the poor such great and important advantages as those they had received from the hand of his right hon. Friend. He understood it to be agreed that they should not discuss the question, in which it was said by so many Members that the feelings of the community out-of-doors were so greatly interested, in a piecemeal or partial manner, but after a full statement of its principle, with all the facts and details, by his right hon. Friend; but the question was raised whether that course of proceeding was the right and proper one. The plan appeared to the Government to be simple, clear, and just; the difficulty and complication were believed by the Government to rest not in the principle of his right hon. Friend, but in the present cumbrous and minute operation of the law. That would be shown to the House on Monday. Surely, then, it was right that they should reserve themselves for the discussion when the House was in Committee; when after hearing the proposal, statements, and arguments of his right hon. Friend, full opportunity would be afforded of forming any judgment which to the general body of the House should appear expedient and right. What he asked then was, that the House would now permit the Bill which contained the general legislation for the year to be read a second time, on the understanding that on Monday in Committee this clause of exception might be dealt with as the House in its wisdom should determine. Motion agreed to. STOCK CERTIFICATES TO BEARER THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in moving that the House do now go into a Committee on the said Bill, said, that on a former occasion he had promised to give an explanation of this Bill, but he would not in giving it detain the House at any unusual length. The Bill, however, was one of importance, and it was regarded with great interest out of doors, and therefore it was right that he should state its object more distinctly than he had yet been enabled to do. The public debt of this country was a debt the machinery of which was somewhat peculiar; it was an admirable machinery for its own purpose, and was worked, upon the whole, with the greatest skill, fidelity, and efficiency by the Bank of England as to the great bulk of the debt, and by the Bank of Ireland as to that portion of it relating to Ireland. It was not intended by this Bill that this system should be altered; neither, again, did the Government propose by the Bill that the present arrangements of the money market should be fundamentally or extensively changed. He believed, that although this country was so adverse to centralization as a rule, the London money market was by far the most perfect and beautiful example of centralization in the whole world. The fact was this-that no man in England or Scotland who had a banker could pay £10 to his account, or could take £10 from it, without acting the next morning upon the foreign exchanges, though, of course, in an infinitesimal degree. To render the effect perceptible, instead of £10 the amount must be £100,000 or £1,000,000; but the fact was, that no addition to, or withdrawal from, the banking fund could be made in any part of the country without its being immediately represented in the London market by a fresh accession or withdrawal, and thus affecting the exchanges. It was not from want of belief in this system, or from thinking that for ordinary purposes the management of the national debt by the system of registered stock was not perfectly adequate, or even the best for its purpose that could be devised, that he made his present proposition. It was, however, perfectly consistent with what he had just stated as to the Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday general merit and efficiency of the system next. of registration of the national debt, to hold that for certain purposes it was capable of being improved. In the first place, it was obvious that it did not offer the greatest possible degree of facility to a very important class of holders of stock, those who held for the purposes of commerce, with a view to borrow upon their stock in order to carry on their business and to fulfil their engagements as occasion might suggest. At present, a person who desired to perform an operation of this kind must undergo the expense of a double transfer. Suppose he had £20,000 stock which he wished to borrow on; he could not make that an available security without transferring the stock; and, if he did not execute a power of attorney, he must appear personally, attended by his broker, who, however excellent a man he might be, did not undertake that function for nothing. When the loan had fulfilled its purpose, the stock must be re-transferred to him, and at a new expense. It sometimes happened that it was desired that this double transfer should occur within the limit of a single day; but the Bank of England had adopted a rulewhich he had no doubt was recommended by convenience and regard for the efficient performance of its functions-that the same stock could not be transferred twice in a single day. This Bill proposed to establish perfect freedom in borrowing upon stock that there should be no limit or restriction whatever, but the stock represented by a certificate payable to bearer should be transferred from hand to hand with the same facility as a bank note. Of course, it would not represent a precise and uniform sum, but still up to a certain point stock was money; and if this measure should give a character of easy circulation to stock, it would be of great convenience, for the owner could use it for borrowing purposes; and by giving increased convenience and facility there would be caused a higher appreciation of the stock in the market, and thus it would improve the value of the public credit, which was no unimportant part of the scheme which he proposed. Besides the borrowers on stock for commercial purposes, they might likewise look to the country and foreign holders of stock; among whom an increased demand might reasonably be expected under the operation of this Bill. At present, under the system of registration of stock at the Bank of England the dealing in stock, so far as he could learn, was a thing almost unknown in the provincial markets-that there were no cases he would not presume to say, VOL. CLXX. [THIRD SERIES.] but they were certainly very rare, and it was the opinion of intelligent gentlemen conconducting large transactions in these markets, that the dealings in stock might be beneficially and very much extended in the country if it were not for the restrictions and the charges for employing intermediate agents in London only. In the country, gentlemen had no means of having stock conveyed to them on the spot, even though there was in the locality a branch of the Bank of England. There were wheels within wheels in this matter, and undoubtedly the Bill would affect the business of brokers and bankers. With respect to bankers and brokers, this Bill was, to some extent, a decentralizing measure; but whilst it had been received with general approval in London, he had received no remonstrance from those whose private interests might be supposed to be affected by it. The main provision of the Bill was this-it was proposed to give to the holder of stock the option of changing his registered stock into certificates to bearer, with interest payable by coupons. It was a matter for consideration as to how long the certificates should run. That question would be decided upon the best advice. At present, the opinion was, that it should not be for less than, or longer than, ten years. It must be understood that they could not transfer by those certificates fractional sums, and therefore a person having registered stock to the amount of £105 6s. 8d., could not convert the £5 6s. 8d. ; he could have a certificate for the round £100, and must deal with £5 6s. 8d. as he pleased. The certificates would come down as low as £50 capital, bearing a yearly interest of 30s., payable half-yearly. The benefits of the Bill lay mostly on the surface-facility of circulation, universality of holding, and the removal of restraints upon money dealings. With regard to the possible dangers and inconveniences attending the certificates, that was a matter for serious consideration. The first danger which would be presented to the minds of hon. Gentle men approaching the subject for the first time, was that of forgery. The question was, whether it was likely that forgery would be extensively, or commonly, or even rarely practised. Of course, the best means would be adopted to prevent such a contingency, but in this matter they had the guidance of experience. In respect to the coupons, the whole of the interest on railway debentures, amounting to about 2 L £100,000,000. was paid by coupons, and they were never forged. But the debentures themselves, except in certain cases in Scotland, were not transferable from hand to hand, as these certificates would be. They had also the experience of foreign countries with respect to their national debts. In France he had been assured on the highest authority, where thirty or forty millions were held on the system of certificates payable to bearer, forgery was almost, if not entirely, unknown. The six-monthly presentation of the coupons aided the security against forgery. Another difficulty which might present itself to the minds of hon. Gentlemen was the case of fraud among joint holders of these securities. There were only, in the main, two classes of joint owners-private firms and commercial incorporations. As to the first, it would be perfectly unnecessary, if not irrational, to attempt by law to secure partner against partner; that was no business of Parliament, but a matter entirely for themselves. But there was another description of proprietary, that was in the case of trustees -and the amount of trust property held in this country was enormous-a vast portion of it was invested in the public securities, and the amount was constantly increasing; and he thought it would be wrong were Parliament, in the case of trustees who had no such close individual relationship as the partners in a mercantile firm, to leave open any door for fraud. They therefore proposed, with respect to this class of proprietors, to do two things. First, they introduced a disability clause, by which trustees were disabled from holding these certificates to bearer, and it was made a breach of trust to do so. It would naturally suggest itself to any rational mind that there would be great objection and difficulty in a trustee holding such securities. They proposed, as a further security, that notice of this-the provision of this section as to the disability of trustees should be printed on every certificate, so that it could hardly fail to meet the eye of any person taking the certificate into his hand. He would next touch on one or two minor points. In the Bill they proposed that the Bank should at once provide means to effect this conversion in the case of the Consols and New Three per Cents, the stock most generally dealt in; but they reserved to themselves the power of extending this provision to other de scriptions of stock. The hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Alderman Salomons) had expressed a great desire that the provision should be extended to the Reduced Three per Cents, and he did not see how they could very well resist that request, and they would not be justified in withholding the same facilities in the case of other stock which did or might hereafter exist to any considerable amount. With regard to the probable extent of the conversion that would take place under the Bill, it was difficult to form an opinion. He was convinced that the great bulk of stock in this country and in Ireland would always continue to be held under the registered form-not only the trust stock which must be held in that form, but the vast proportion of miscellaneous stock; but the operation of the Bill would be very satisfactory if only a small portion, say 2 or 3 per cent, was converted. There was another point he desired to mention-namely, the nominal certificates. The House was aware that Exchequer Bills were drawn payable to blank or bearer, and any possessor of an Exchequer Bill might, if he thought fit, by inserting his name, make it secure against those who might abstract it. The Government had not thought it right to withhold the same advantage from the holders of the stock certificate to bearer. Many holders of these certificates, while desiring to avail themselves of the facilities afforded by the payment of interest on coupons, might likewise desire to prevent these instruments, if abstracted, from being paid away almost like money. It was therefore proposed to draw them so as to allow the holder to insert his own name if he thought fit. If, however, he did so, he must be prepared to part with some of the facilities which he now enjoyed. It was not possible to combine the highest degree of facility with the highest degree of security. It would therefore be necessary to require, where the certificate had been made nominal, that it should altogether part with the facilities of transfer which attached to the certificate to bearer. It would be said, “Why not permit the nominal certificate to be transferred by endorsement?" Prima facie that was desirable, but the practical difficulties which such a system would entail were so great that the Bank would hardly be prepared to cope with them. The Bank would be responsible for the investigation of the signatures of all persons who by endorsement might have become proprietors. The House would understand, therefore, why it had been felt necessary to require, that when the certificate became | holders of the certificates, the Government nominal, it should revert, practically, to the thought it perfectly right to take such mea. condition of registered stock, which could sures as should bear the State harmless. not be transferred except on going through its creditors, it was a fair and equitable the operation of regular registry and trans- When the State improved the property of fer. Then came the question of the demand that it should not be placed at a probable effect of the change on the revenue positive loss by the new machinery used of the country. The revenue would lose for effecting that purpose. On that ground in a certain way. It was quite possible, the Government proposed the schedule of though he hoped such would not be the fees, which would be found on the last page case, that the measure would entail addi- of the Bill. The Government were emtional trouble and charge on the Bank; and powered to fix a fee of so much per cent, if that were so, the Bank would be entitled limiting it to a maximum of one quarter per to claim at their hands additional remune- cent, which he thought was not an unration, because they had a positive covenant reasonable limit. The next clause in the with the Bank which fixed the remuneration schedule was intended to prevent unnecesaccording to the amount of the National sary labour in the multiplication of these Debt, but which proceeded all along on the certificates. They authorized the Bank to supposition that the present system of make a certain very moderate charge in registry continued. The change would cases where they were taken out on a large entail the necessity of keeping new books, scale for very small amounts. A man of creating a new material for the certifi- might divide £20,000 into 400 certificates, cates; it would also entail considerable upon each of which a separate dividend labour in preparing and issuing the would be payable half-yearly, in lieu of a certificates, and considerable changes in single dividend on the entire sum; and the payment of the dividends. Whether they therefore thought it desirable to this would cause increased trouble, he make a small charge on the original would not venture to say. On the other certificates, when the number issued exhand, the Bank would have less trouble ceeded in a certain proportion the amount with regard to transfers, and it would be a of stock. They also gave a power to matter for consideration and examination charge a fee on the conversion of a nominal as to what arrangement should be made in certificate to a certificate to bearer, not respect of the expense of the management exceeding half the fees charged on the of the National Debt. Then there were issue of a new certificate. They could not other ways in which the Bill would have a afford to convert these nominal certificates bearing adverse to the revenue. It would to certificates to bearer for nothing; tend to diminish the number of powers of if they did, these conversions would be attorney, and therefore deprive the revenue constantly made. Again, where persons of some portion of the stamp duty. It was who had bought certificates to bearer plain, also, that so far as the Bill tended wished to re-convert them into registered to encourage the holding of stock in foreign stock, power was taken to charge, not countries, it would deprive the revenue of a a percentage, but a simple fee of 5s. certain portion of the probate duty. At Such were the main provisions of the Bill, present a large portion of stock held by and there was only one other point to foreigners became practically liable to the which he desired to call attention. The probate duty. It was also plain on the Bill, as it stood, extended to England passing of this Bill, it would have a tenden only; and as we were going to have the cy to restrain the use of Exchequer Bills, National Debt represented in a document as the certificates would be preferred, by which should have no relation to any those who looked to a permanent invest particular place, but which was meant to ment, to the Exchequer Bills, that were circulate uniformly over the world, he liable to vary from six months to six owned his preference for having the months. In proportion to the issue of certificates to bearer issued at the Bank of these certificates there would be additional England alone. But a great desire had labour, as large sums would be broken been expressed by influential persons for into smaller ones, and the forms would be the issue of certificates in Ireland also; repeated and multiplied; and partly on the and since it had been represented to him ground of expense to the public, and part- that the certificates would be very popular ly on the ground of the great advantage and in that country, he had no hesitation in saving of expense to those who became saying-what he had already stated to |