was talked of as if Russia had never at- reference to this difficulty. The Archtempted to reconcile the Poles; but the bishop of Warsaw tendered to the Archhistory of the Poles from 1815 to 1820 duke Constantine his resignation as contradicted that assumption. It so hap- member of the Legislative Assembly; pened that he had a connection who had and what did the Grand Duke say? He been employed by Russia; that connec- said " This is open rebellion at such a tion had always treated him with the ut- time as this. You want to make this a most friendship and confidence. He (Mr. religious war; but He (Mr. religious war; but you will find Russia too Newdegate) had himself entertained many powerful for you. The same Ultramonof the feelings in favour of Polish inde- tane influence which counteracted Engpendence that had been avowed in that land's efforts to conciliate Ireland was at House; and he asked the gentleman to work in Poland, and had been her curse whom he referred to furnish him with for two hundred years. Poland was evidence that proposals for reconcilia- formerly one great source from which tion had not only been made, but that Rome recruited her crusades; the Ultrathere had been an attempt to carry them montane party now was stimulating Poland out by Russia. The gentleman furnished for another crusade-for a religious war him with that evidence, and he showed against Russia; and if Russia were guilty that the very same system which prevent of severities and atrocities which he deed England from producing content in Ire-plored, and which severities and atrocities land was the source of the perpetual disturbance and misery of Poland. He (Mr. Newdegate) asked the House to consider this-Was there anything in the conduct of the present Emperor of Russia which could make them believe that he did not personally share those benevolent feelings towards Poland which actuated Alexander the First? And yet it was assumed that the Emperor had no such disposition. So far was this from being the case, that even Prince Napoleon, speaking in the Senate of France, declared that the intentions of the Emperor of Russia towards Poland were most benevolent; and such an admission from such a quarter must carry conviction to the most sceptical, for the Prince made this admission on the very eve of dividing the Senate on a motion which, if carried, would have involved France in a war with Russia for the independence of Poland. The Grand Duke had granted the most liberal indul gencies to the Poles. And how had these been thwarted? Why, by the same elements of disturbance which had prevented England from reconciling Ireland. No one could read the recent letter of the Archbishop of Orleans to M. Quinet without seeing that the object of the Ultramontane party was to establish their own power in and over Poland. What did the Archbishop say to M. Quinet, in effect, but this?" We, the Ultramontane Party, will not accept your aid for Poland, nor your co-operation; for if by such means we were to succeed, we should not establish in Poland the state of things which we desire. There had appeared in The Times a passage most pregnant with VOL. CLXX. [THIRD SERIES.]

he had no doubt the noble Lord at the head of the Government would do his best to mitigate; and still, if Russia were driven to these acts in order to avoid the occurrence of such a calamity as a religious war, she would ultimately receive, barbarous as she might be in many respects, that justice from public opinion which the too sanguine advocates of Poland denied her. He hoped that the House would excuse him for thus speaking that which he believed to be the honest truth. There were elements in this contest which rendered the Poles insensible to reason, and not content with justicejustice as far as could be granted by a Power which those who had excited the Polish insurrection were seeking to injure in her deepest interests. [4 laugh.] The hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) might laugh-he was the representative of that class of the Roman Catholic opinion which thought all means justifiable to accomplish its ends. Those only would laugh who thought any amount of bloodshed and civil war justifiable if it afforded them some prospect of seeing the favourite order of Rome dominant throughout the world. But the Protestant people of England were not forgetful of their own history; they knew that their forefathers were driven to the use of severities, which they regretted, by this same element of danger and disturbances; and they would yet do justice to Russia, if Russia, at the instance of Europe, was prepared to do justice to Poland.

SIR HARRY VERNEY said, the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) endeavoured to represent this E

as a religions war, but he thought he would ality, their native language, the Poles did not convert the people of England to that not obtain justice, for there were no col view. The present insurrection was not leges nor schools for the cultivation of caused by any internal dissension among the Polish language in the four provinces. the Poles, but by the external pressure He asserted that there were none in East put upon them by their oppressors. Never or West Prussia, or in the Grand Duchy had greater tyranny been exercised by one of Posen there were not even village civilized country towards another, than that schools-and when the Poles complained which Russia had inflicted on Poland. The of any act of severity on the part of constant and systematic attempts of Russia their rulers, they were told they were to govern Poland by the instrumentality of Prussians, and not Poles. It was clear Russians lay at the root of all the disturb therefore, notwithstanding the assertion of ances in that country. The friends of the noble Lord, that the nationality of Poland would never cease calling the atten- Poland was not preserved in Prussia. tion of Europe and of this country to the he grievous oppressions to which she had been Bubjected for so many years, but it was not bare words of encouragement they were prepared to give her. What had fallen from the noble Viscount to night had led him to hope that he would take measures, in concert with the other Powers who had signed the Treaty of Vienna, to obtain those concessions to Poland to which she had a right. He hoped this country would combine with Austria and France in order to give to Poland one frontier upon which she might depend, and that we should yet see Galicia independent. If that were effected-if it were possible to establish an independent kingdom between Germany and Russia, it would form a most important element of the peace and safety of Europe.

MR. H. R. GRENFELL said, regretted that on that, the first time on which he addressed the House, he should differ in some respects from the opinions of the Liberal party, to which he belonged. The Liberal party always professed to advocate peace, retrenchment, and reform. Reform had been put aside, and he did not see much sign of retrenchment; he hoped, then, he might be permitted to say a few words upon the subject of peace. Now, if there was any meaning in the argument of the hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy), they meant this, that he did not believe in the ability of the noble Viscount and the Government to steer clear on the one side of pusillanimous advice, and on the other of war. But the sympathies of England and those of the noble SIR HENRY STRACEY said, that Viscount and of the Governments which the speech of his hon. Friend the Member had preceded his had never been wanting for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) to the cause of Poland. At the time of contained many generous sentiments; still, the first partition of Poland the greatest on the question of the established religion political and philosophical writer of that of this country, he could not but think, if day had endeavoured to awaken publie we adhered to the Treaty of Vienna, we opinion in Europe to the general wrong must support the religion and clergy of sustained by all nations through that the Poles. He could not understand why event; and in 1815 the noble Lord who Prussia should have been treated with so represented England at the Congress of much delicacy in this debate. Prussia Vienna (Lord Castlereagh) had endeavourwas as culpable as Russia. He remem-ed, by acting in concert with Austria, to bered that the noble Viscount, on a former occassion, asserted that in Prussia the nationality of Poland was preserved. But, with the utmost deference to the noble Viscount, and as far as his information went, he could not agree with him in that opinion. In the four provinces of East and West Prussia, Silesia, and the Grand Duchy of Posen, there were in all 7,500,000 inhabitants, of whom 2,830,000 were Poles. In Posen there were 850,000 Poles, and only 550,000 Prussians. According to the Treaty of Vienna, these Poles ought to have their nationality preserved; and yet in that important element of nation

obtain justice for Poland. In 1831 Poland was not the only country which the noble Viscount had to watch over. It should not be forgotten that besides arranging the great and dangerous question of Belgium the noble Lord was occupied then in watching over the nascent liberties of Spain and Portugal; and Belgium, Spain, and Portugal were countries far nearer and more interesting to us than Poland. Again, at the close of the Crimean war, the noble Viscount and Lord Clarendon showed that they were not unmindful of Poland; and he maintained that the noble Viscount had on

dealing with terminable annuities was that the capital should be reinvested in some form or other, otherwise the danger of spending capital as income was incurred. There could not be a question of the prudence of recognising by statute the claims of the savings banks to repayments in full at the hands of the Commissioners of the National Debt.

MR. AYRTON said, persons throughout the country were extremely sensitive about the right to receive back the money deposited with the Commissioners of the National Debt. In such an extraordinary emergency as the funds at the disposal of the Commissioners proving insufficient to meet all the claims upon them, there could be no doubt that Parliament would make good the deficiency; but he was anxious to know how the fund could be rendered available if there should happen to be a run upon them.

proposed to apply the same principle to the the amount of interest would be. He ap. old savings banks. He asked Parliament prehended that the very first principle in to give power to convert four millions of 3 per cent stock into terminable annuities of 1885. The effect of the measure would be to add £120,000 a year to the present charge for the National Debt, with a view to the relief to be obtained by the extinction of so much of the capital within a limited period. The next enactment in the proposed Bill would be to convert £24,000,000 of the savings banks money into a passive charge, resembling the debt now due to the Bank. He also proposed to remedy an existing defect in the law relating to savings banks. Although at present there was no doubt of the moral, and to some extent the legal, liability of the State to repay to the trustees of savings banks all the money received from them with the interest accrued, yet the machinery for giving effect to that obligation did not exist. The value of stock in the hands of the Commissioners might not be sufficient to liquidate all their engagements. He proposed, that in case of a demand on account of the savings banks arising that could not be met out of the proceeds of the securities and the cash at the credit of the Commissioners, such deficiency should be a charge upon the whole Consolidated Fund-giving full security to the savings banks. Another provision in the Bill would authorize the Commissioners, whenever they might think it desirable, to meet any demands out of the cash in the Exchequer, instead of going into the market to sell stock, which, at a time when the price was low, was a disadvantageous operation with a forced sale. Resolution moved,

MR. LYGON understood the Bill to apply to all past operations, but wished to know whether it would apply to any deficiency to be created hereafter. If so, that would open a very wide question.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE. QUER held, that there could be no doubt of the right of trustees of savings banks to receive back from the State every farthing they had paid; but there was all the difference in the world between a right to receive payment and provision of the machinery for making that payment. As to the apprehension of future deficits, he reminded the Committee that by the Act of 1861 security had been taken that any operation in which a Finance Minister That it is expedient to amend the Laws relating might engage for any public purpose must to the investment of the monies of Savings Banks, come under the review of Parliament beestablished under the Act 9 Geo. 4, c. 92, to create, fore it could take effect. Until 1861 the a charge for such Savings Banks upon the Con- Chancellor of the Exchequer had the power solidated Fund in place of certain perpetual Annuities now standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt for such Savings Banks, to give powers for converting certain other amounts of such perpetual Annuities into certain other Annuities, and to provide for the due payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any deficiency which may arise from insufficiency of the securities to meet the legal claims of the Trustees of such Savings

Banks.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, as far as he understood the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, one portion seemed very good, and another somewhat doubtful. The Committee was dealing with a very large sum, and he wished to know what

of refunding Exchequer Bilis. Now, all that power was taken away from him, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must submit himself to the judgment of Parliament with regard to any of these financial operations.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY thought it would be better to place this power in the hands of the Commissioners of the Treasury, who were well known and responsible to the House, than in the hands of an ex-officio body like that of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCIEQUER admitted that that question might

very fairly be debated hereafter, separately two most able men-Sir John Lefevre and from the Bill.

Sir Edward Ryan-both of whom received
salaries from other appointments.
was a state of things that could not be ex-
pected to last. Sir John Lefevre for eight

Resolution to be reported on Monday years discharged most arduous duties on