certificate would reduce all to the same low; and not leave them to go wholesale to a level. He did not say that the proposal place which must not be named, without of his hon. Friend the hon. Member for a helping hand being held out to save Berkshire was a perfect remedy, but it them. He believed that the Motion of was, at all events, a step in the right his hon. Friend would have a tendency to direction. It would, to a certain extent, make the Privy Council system more elascompel the trained masters to show, not tic, and to enable it to reach those whom only that they had the power to teach, it did not reach. If they adhered strictly but that they did teach. They would, to the system as it was now established, through the inspectors, come into compe- they would go on for fourteen or fifteen tition with men trained in a different way, years more having large classes shut out; and the results would be beneficial to both. the consequence of that would be that they would become impatient of paying, and then those who were now sucking the orange to their hearts' content would not find it yield quite so much juice as it had hitherto done.

His right hon. Friend below him said that the proposal would wholly exclude the consideration of the religious teaching given in the schools. He did not understand it in that sense, and the hon. Member who proposed the Resolutions had re- MR. PULLER said, he would suggest pudiated that construction, and placed to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. upon the words the larger interpretation Adderley) that it would be better to meet which they certainly would bear. The in- the Motion of the hon. Member for Berks spectors were to look into the whole con- with a direct negative than by the Amenddition of the schools proposed to be ad- ment which he had proposed. That Amendmitted under these Resolutions, in the same ment would, as it stood, exclude from way as they did with regard to those the grant schools for the teaching sciwhich already received the grant. He ence and art, which were not confined considered that the words of the Resolu- to the working classes, and would, in tion were large enough. If he did not, fixing the amount of aid, leave out of he certainly should not support them, be- consideration fees and endowments, neither cause the two points to which he had of which results could be desired by the always attached the greatest importance right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. were, that education should be based upon Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire religion, and that the Privy Council sys- (Mr. Henley) took a view of the matter tem should be made more elastic, so that different from that entertained by the it should not shut out the large number hon. Member for Berks. The latter of children who were now excluded from hon. Gentleman in his second Resolution its benefits. With reference to ragged complained of the injustice done to maschools, he must say that the children nagers; but the whole burden of the right who attended them, those outsiders of hon. Gentleman's complaint was the injussociety whom the Privy Council would not tice, not to the managers of schools, but admit into their schools, were just those to the payers of taxes. The first Resoluwho were the most destitute and most tion spoke of the poorer schools. There neglected, and who required the most was a cognate expression which was often looking after; and any system which did used-that of "poor parishes.' The ponot take hold of them failed in a most im verty was often fictitious and imaginary portant particular. They were the most rather than real, and arose, as the Comdestitute of God's creatures. It was per-missioners themselves stated, not from any haps their misfortune that they had care- want of property in the parishes, but from less parents. It might be their great the indifference of non-resident proprietors misfortune that they had wicked parents; and their unwillingness to pay for the supbut they were cast loose to go to what port of that education to which they ought mischief they might, and for some reason to contribute. Only last year the right or other the Privy Council would not at- hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordtempt to recall them. What had been shire stated that there were in that county said that night upon the subject deserved sixty assisted schools. The population of the great weight. He had, over and over whole county was 170,000, and that of the again, urged those who had the manage- places where the assisted schools were situment of the Educational Department to ate 70,000, or about 40 per cent; while, endeavour to recall what were called the according to the Income Tax Returns, those "Arabs" of this and other great cities, places represented about 30 per cent of the

property of the county. Therefore, com paring property with population, the part of the country which was assisted had a smaller proportion of property and a larger proportion of population; while that which was not assisted had a smaller proportion of population, and a larger proportion of property. It was said that the population was scattered over a large area divided into small parishes; but did the proposition of the hon. Member for Berkshire meet the cases of small parishes where there was no liberal esquire or energetic parson? Not at all. He proposed to meet the case of those who, being able and willing to pay for a good teacher, and so to produce certain results, were now excluded from the grant because their teacher had not got a certificate; but the difficulty of the small parishes was to take the first step, that of securing a good teacher; and if the hon. Member wished to meet the wants of really destitute parishes in the manner suggested, he must go on and guarantee the salary of the teacher, with out waiting for any results. If that were done, the House would never have any rest until it consented to take into its own hands the entire control of the education of the country. That would be the fatal result of departing from the system of wholesome supervision which the House had hitherto exercised. He should give a decided negative to the Resolutions.

lower his certificates until they became of no value, so that bad and cheap masters could obtain them. What was asked was that the managers of schools should produce certain results of instruction, and that they should have the advantage of the stimulus of a Government inspector, who should make the schools as good as circumstances permitted. Disguise it as they might, a large number of schools were unable at present to take advantage of the Government grants. These schools were mainly of two classes-small country schools not supported in their localities, and ragged schools in towns. As long as their educational system excluded these two classes of schools, it rested on an unsound and illogical foundation. Depend upon it, such a system, however they might patch it up, could not be maintained. In some way or other the difficulty must be met. The Vice President of the Education Committee was aware of the defect, and how did he intend to meet it? In the most objectionable way possible-namely, by lower classes of certificates. He said, "I will still keep up this system of certificates, still maintain a class that shall have a monopoly; and, in order to reach the classes in question, I will endeavour to make my certificates really worth nothing by lowering them." The right hon. Gentleman was not asked to do that. Those who wished for some alteration in the present system felt the advantage of the trained masters, the certificated teachers, and the pupil teachers. The latter were an important class, and it was desirable that the duty of instructing them should be intrusted to men of high certificates. The right hon. Gentleman was only asked to make some provision for those children who were excluded from any participation in the Education Grant. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walter) had moved two Resolutions-the first was of a very positive character, and might be embar rassing to the Government. He was certain the hon. Member did not wish to embarrass the Government, but to carry the principle of his second Resolution, which should have his hearty support.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, the House had heard a great deal about logic, but he must protest against some of the logic he had heard. The case put by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) was, that there were three conditions under the Revised Code necessary for the receipt of a grant-instruction, the approval of the inspector, and the presence of a certificated teacher-and that the Resolution of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walter) did away with two of these conditions and retained only the test of instruction. So far, however, from that being the case, it was the reverse of the case; and what the hon. Member for Hertfordshire (Mr. Puller) had said was an illustration of the mistakes into which hon. Gentlemen had fallen. What the hon. Member for Berkshire, | Ile trusted that the hon. Member would however, did, was to put before the House the case of a large number of schools the managers of which could not afford to pay certificated teachers. These uncertificated masters had been spoken of as cheap and bad. Now, the Vice President of the Education Committee was not asked to

consent to withdraw his first Resolution, so that the issue might be taken on his second Resolution, which was a protest against the necessity of employing a certificated teacher. If that were the issue, he should heartily vote with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Berkshire.

The

a

a degree; and as that declaration in con- them had turned out the most distinnection with the Church of England was guished of the undergraduates. required at the time of taking a degree, no gentleman who was Senior Wrangler in person could possibly by university law be- the year 1860-a Scotchman -was come a Fellow who was not a member of member of the free Church of Scotland. the Church of England. But, in addition Ile took his degree as Senior Wrangler, to that, he would have also to make a de- and he (Mr. Bouverie) was informed that claration under the Act of Uniformity, that it was perhaps the most brilliant degree he would conform to the Liturgy of the taken for the last half century. He was a Church of England. What he proposed mathematician of the first order, and would to the House to do was simply to repeal have adorned the annals of Cambridge. this requisition. It was not merely as a He was a scholar of Trinity College, and theoretic question of liberty of opinion that had he been able to make the required dehe proposed it, for on that ground he never claration of conformity he would have been would have invited the House to make a elected a Fellow. The college, as he was change; but it was at the request of an informed, was desirous of electing him a influential portion of the resident Fellows of Fellow, as it had happened that for some the University of Cambridge. In the past years no member of it had taken a disyear he had presented a Petition signed by tinguished degree in mathematics, and no less than seventy-four of the resident Fel- there had not been a Trinity Senior lows, comprising many of the most eminent Wrangler for sixteen years. The college names of men connected for a long time was therefore desirous of strengthening its with the educational system of that great mathematical teaching power; but this paruniversity, and stating that that require- ticular gentleman was stopped by the dement of the Act of Uniformity was in their claration, although he had attended the opinion injurious to the interests of the services in the chapel, and he believed had university, and praying the House to re- taken the sacraments, and thus the college peal that clause. When he mentioned that lost the services of Mr. Stirling. The amongst the names attached to the Peti- same thing happened in the case of another tion were those of Professor Sedgwick, Nonconformist, also a Senior Wrangler. Mr. Clarke, Mr. Phear, Mr. Todhunter, These examples happening so shortly after and others well known in association the admission of Nonconformists to degrees with the educational system at Cam- showed what good grounds those gentlebridge, anybody who had any know- men, who were most competent to form an ledge of that subject would admit that opinion, had for thinking that such exgreat weight was due to the authority of clusion was injurious to the university and that Petition. The ground upon which to the cause of education. Great educathe opinion of those Petitioners was formed tional establishments like Trinity College, he ought to state to the House. One great with Fellowships open to all classes, offered change effected in the universities by the great prizes for intellectual ability. By Acts to which he had referred was to ren-excluding Nonconformists from competition der Dissenters admissible to degrees. Up to the Act of 1854 no Dissenter could even have matriculated at Oxford, but at Cambridge they were more liberal; they allowed a man to reside, and till he took his degree no declaration was required of him. Up to that time no Dissenter or Nonconforntist could take a degree; but by those two Acts Dissenters and Nonconformists of every kind were admissible to a degree, and admissible at Cambridge to all the scholarships and exhibitions without any declaration or oath required of them by an express clause in the Cambridge Act. What had been the consequence? A certain number of gentlemen had come to reside in different colleges of the Univer. sity of Cambridge who were not members of the Church of England, and some of

they were deprived of incentives for going to the university, and for exertion if they did go there. The colleges which desired the services of such men were not only robbed of them, but the field of choice for Fellows, who ought to be distinguished for intellectual capacity, was limited. He did not wish to put forward the case of injustice to Nonconformists, but where there were no clerical privileges, nor theological questions affected, he thought the exclusion was an injustice. Take the case of his constituents in the north. Why were all Scotchmen to be excluded from all opportunity of obtaining those prizes? It was a curious fact that this particular clause in the Act of Uniformity did not appear to have been originally part of the Bill, but was introduced by the Commons as an