LORD ROBERT CECIL said, that as it seemed to be the wish of the House and the Prime Minister to divide upon the Main Question, he had no objection to withdraw his Motion for the adjournment of the debate. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. The House divided :-Ayes 157; Noes 135: Majority 22. Act of Uniformity considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) ticular object which he had in view. But MR. LYGON said, that if the House the present stage, I take it, is equivalent should be allowed to go into Committee, he to moving for leave to bring in a Bill. It hoped it would be only on the understandmight be said that this measure is rather ing that the Chairman should immediately one of principle than of detail, and conse- report progress, and that the question of quently that the House should be as com- leave to bring in the Bill should stand over petent at the first blush to form an opinion until after the universities and the Church upon it as if they had the advantage of England had had an ample opportunity of seeing its clauses. On the other hand, of considering the matter. If the House it relates to a matter upon which parties went into Committee, he should avail himout of the House are fairly entitled to self of its forms to prevent a division being have full time for consideration, and for taken on the Main Question. that reason I should not be indisposed to vote for going into Committee, which sim ply means that my right hon. Friend should have leave to bring in his Bill. I confess, however, that I think the subject itself is one which will require very grave consideration. The distinction taken by the right hon. Member for Cambridge University seems to be a sound one-namely, the distinction between admitting persons of all religious opinions to every advantage in point of education which our universities can confer, and admitting them to be part of the governing bodies. It also appears to me that the point adverted to by the noble Lord who spoke last is not unworthy of notice, for one can conceive that there might be peculiar circumstances connected with the religious opinions of the governing body of a college which might have a very material influence in preventing parents from sending their sons to such college. I shall not be more particular, but I am sure everybody will understand the bearing of that remark. On the whole, I should say that it would be consistent with the usual practice of the House to allow my right hon. Friend to bring his Bill in, but, in voting with him, I must hold myself perfectly free to deal with the measure afterwards in such manner as upon further consideration may appear to be expedient. It would be fair to the universities to give them an opportunity of considering the Bill, and making their wishes and feelings upon it known to the House. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, I have no objection to vote for the introduction of the Bill, but my right hon. Friend must not understand that I express any opinion favourable to the measure itself. MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, he wished to correct an error into which the right hon. Member for Cambridge University had unintentionally fallen. The Bill which he proposed to introduce was limited to fellowships, and did not touch the headship of colleges. LORD ROBERT CECIL said, he hoped that as the Bill affected the material interests of persons at a distance from the House, the right hon. Gentleman would give them what was always accorded to criminals, "a long day," in order that they might have an opportunity of considering the proposals of the Bill which was to be introduced. MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, that if hon. Gentlemen would allow the Bill to be brought in that evening, he would undertake to fix the second reading at a suffi. ciently remote date to give every opportunity for considering its provisions. MR. WALPOLE said, he accepted the division as an intimation that the House desired to see the provisions of the Bill, and he hoped that before the House went out of Committee the right hon. Gentle man would fix the day for the second reading. MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, he would fix the second reading for Wednesday, the 3rd of June. MR. HUNT: That's Ascot week. MR. LYGON said, he wished to point out that the Public-houses Bill, which was sure to create much debate, was fixed for that day. MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, he would look through the Order Book, and fix a day for the second reading on the following day. HOLYHEAD HARBOUR. COLONEL DUNNE said, he rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the state of Holyhead Harbour, with a view to ascertain the best method to afford safe and efficient accommodation for the Vessels engaged in the Irish Mail Service, and for the Passengers conveyed by them. When the wind blew from particular quarters, there was considerable danger, and vessels were not safe alongside the pier. It was said that there should be a protecting wall, but the only protection was by piles, and it was totally insufficient. The Government had promised to strengthen the pier on more than one occasion, and had failed to perform those promises. The vessels were often delayed twenty or thirty minutes in getting alongside the pier, and the passengers had to scramble over wet planks on a dark night. He hoped the Committee would be granted, as it was the only hope which passengers to and from Ireland had of any attention being paid to their just complaints. MR. LEFROY seconded the Motion. The noble Lord the Secretary for the Admiralty had himself on more than one occasion expressed his concurrence in the importance of these improvements. He might say that long and unavoidable delays in landing the mails were often occasioned by the state of the accommodation. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of Holyhead Harbour, with a view to ascertain the best method of affording safe and efficient accommodation for the Vessels engaged in the Irish Mail Service, and for the Passengers conveyed by them." MR. MILNER GIBSON said, the House was hardly in a position to accede to the Motion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The correspondence on the subject was on the point of being circulated among Mem bers, and ought to be perused before the subject was discussed. As far as he knew, there was no disposition on the part of the Government to deny that they were bound to make arrangements for the safe landing of the mails and the accommodation of passengers. The packet company had not complied with the requirements of the contract in regard to speed, but there was no connection between that and the state of the pier. The Government were prepared to carry out the plans certified as sufficient for the accommodation of the steamboats, and the captains of the vessels had admitted that those plans were satisfactory. The works were in progress, and the jetty was about to be filled in so as entirely to exclude the sea. The covered building suggested had not been erected because it was believed to be too heavy for the jetty: but a substitute would be provided. He hoped that under the circumstances the hon. and gallant Member would not press his Motion. MR. HERBERT said, he regretted that the answer of the right hon. Gentleman was not more satisfactory. There had been a distinct breach of contract by the Government. For eight years the steamboat company had put themselves in a position to keep their part of the contract, but the Government had not performed their part. LORD NAAS said, he thought there ought never to have been any correspondence at all. The House had a right to insist upon the Government keeping its part of the contract. The Government had, eight years ago, promised to build a pier for the passengers, and they had not done it. The steamboat company, on the contrary, had done all in their power. The Government had much better make up their minds to build a new pier than to try to patch up the old one. He hoped the appointment of the Committee would be agreed to. MR. WHALLEY said, that the Holyhead route was not the best way of communication with Ireland, and contended that to lay out any more money on it in addition to the £1,000,000 which had already been expended was a course which ought not to be adopted without due consideration. LORD CLAUD HAMILTON trusted the Government would not throw away any more public money in an endeavour to make the present pier-head the place for landing. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE. the whole correspondence ought to be proQUER said, he should move the adjourn-duced, as it bore upon the Prison Ministers ment of the debate. He did not see that Bill, which the right hon. Gentleman had the case was one for investigation by a introduced. Committee; and even if it were, the House ought not to proceed further in the matter until the correspondence mentioned by his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, which was now in the press, was in the hands of Members. MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that he thought the question of the appointment of a Committee was not proper then; but if, after the perusal of the correspondence, the House should think otherwise, it might be proper to re-consider the point. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." The House divided:-Ayes 40; Noes 35: Majority 5. Debate adjourned till Tuesday next. DARTMOOR PRISON. PAPERS MOVED FOR. MR. WHALLEY said, that similar correspondence, in another case, had been given to him, and he thought it was most reasonable the House should require the correspondence in the present instance. Question put. The House divided :-Ayes 21; Noes 35: Majority 14. WRITS PROHIBITION (No. 2.) BILL. BILL WITHDRAWN. Order for Second Reading read. MR. E. P. BOUVERIE, finding the opposition with which it was threatened of too serious a character, begged to move that the Order be discharged. Order discharged:-Bill withdrawn. PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation-con (In the Committee.) MR. NEWDEGATE said, he wished to move for an Address for a copy of, or ex-sidered in Committee :— tracts from, the correspondence between the Home Office, the prison authorities, and the visiting Roman Catholic priest recently dismissed from attendance at the Dartmoor Prison. It was important that the correspondence should be produced before the House was called on to pass a judgment on the Prison Ministers Bill. Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copy of or Extracts from the Correspond. ence between the Home Office, the Prison Authorities, and the Visiting Roman Catholic Priest, recently dismissed from attendance at the Dartmoor Prison." SIR GEORGE GREY said, he had no objection to produce the letter in which he had intimated his opinion as to the conduct of the Roman Catholic priest dismissed from attendance. He considered, that owing to deficiency of temper and discretion, his continuance in the office was inconsistent with the good order and discipline of the prison; but he thought it was undesirable in such a case that all the correspondence should be laid before the House. MR. KINNAIRD said, he regretted that any desire should be evinced to conceal the facts of the case. In his opinion, Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, That leave be given to bring in a Bill for confirming certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Blackpool, Deal and Walmer, Exmouth, Llandudno, Rhyl, Rosehearty, Ilfracombe, Instow, Bangor, Chatham, Bray, Dartmouth, and Nairn. Resolution reported. Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. MILNER GIBSON and Mr. IIUTT. Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 109.] SALE OF MILL SITES, ETC. (IRELAND) BILL. On Motion of Mr. PEEL, Bill to amend the Act of the twentieth and twenty-first years of Victoria, authorizing the Sale of Mill Sites and Water Powers by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. PEEL and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 105.] SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL. On Motion of Mr. CAIRD, Bill to enlarge the Sheriff Small Debt Jurisdiction in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. CAIRD, Mr. DALGLISH, and Mr. MACKIE. Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 107.] VOLUNTEERS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. On Motion of The Marquess of HARTINGTON, Bill to consolidate and amend the Acts relating to the Volunteer Force in Great Britain, ordered to be brought in by the Marquess of HARTINGTON and the JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL. Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 108.] House adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, May 6, 1863. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading- CHURCH RATES COMMUTATION BILL [MR. NEWDEGATE[BILL 14.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. MR. NEWDEGATE, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said: I am anxious, Sir, to express my thanks to the Government and to the House, for having permitted me, after having withdrawn this Bill in its first form, to re-introduce it at the close of the last Session, in order that it might be considered during the recess. I availed myself of the opportunity thus afforded, and complied with what I believe to have been the intention of the House. About 2.600 copies of the Bill were circulated during the recess. A copy was placed in the hands of each Board of Guardians. and of each Rural Dean; a copy was sent to each Cathedral Chapter, and copies were sent to many of the clergy in the towns in I am anxious, Sir, that the House should for a few moments consider the present position of the church rate question. Last Session, after the Bill proposed by the hon. Baronet the Member for Tavistock (Sir John Trelawny) had been rejected by a majority of one, in a House of 559 Members, the House came to a Resolution, by a majority of seventeen, to the effect that it would be unjust and inexpedient that church rates should be abolished until some substitute for them had been supplied. Again, this Session, the Bill introduced by the hon. Baronet, at the instance of the extreme anti-church rate agitators, was, in a House of 560 Members, rejected by a majority of ten votes. It therefore appears, that so far as the opinion of this House has been eated by its action, the House has sion, and by sanctioning the acts of that Commission, that these funds ought to be applied to an increased provision for the clergy, and increased Church accommodation for the people. Sir Robert Peel said— Commutation Bill. practically decided that it will consider | it to the purposes of church rate. Sir some substitute for church rates-some Robert Peel condemned the proposal, on change of the law, which shall provide for the ground that the property of the Church the maintenance of the fabrics and of the was not only inadequate to her then exist services of the church, but that the meansing requirements, but utterly inadequate to for obtaining that provision shall be adapted provide for the spiritual necessities of the to the altered circumstances of the country, increasing population. He showed not now that one-third or one-fourth of the only that the Church was unable to fulfil population are not members of the Estab- her function, but that the Dissenting bodies lished Church. I do not pretend to ignore had failed to provide for the spiritual nethat fact, and it is with direct reference to cessities of the poor. During the last Sesthat fact that the Bill which I ask the sion, I served on the Committee which was House to consider has been drawn. But appointed to consider the operations of the it has been drawn with this further view Ecclesiastical Commission; and although, -that it is not the intention of the Le- as that Committee has not yet reported, I gislature that it is not the intention have no right to anticipate the conclusion of this House to disturb the connec- at which we may arrive, yet the evidence tion of the Established Church with the has been printed, and I may be allowed to Constitution of this country, but that it is say, that it clearly proves the inadequacy the intention of Parliament to preserve the of the means of the Church at this moment Church in her parochial organization as the for the spiritual instruction of the people. means by which the poor shall always have, Sir Robert Peel, as I have already stated, without payment, means of divine worship resisted the proposal to alienate the revenues and the doctrines of true religion taught of the Church in order to apply them to the them without cost. I observed last week, purposes of church rate. I say alienate," in the leading organ of the press, The since Parliament has decided, by the Times, an article to this effect :-That un-pointment of the Ecclesiastical Commis less this Bill, which is there termed "Mr. Newdegate's Specific," be adopted, the church rate question, with all the bitter division of opinion and of feeling which it entails, among those who ought to be united on the main questions of religion, will continue long to be agitated, and that thus this strife will be prolonged, with all its evil consequences, for many years to come. I believe that The Times, in deprecating this result, has truly represented that sound but quiet mass of opinion and of feeling, which, although not always apparent on the landowner and the Church-whether it would the surface, yet when the time comes, be possible to reconcile such a plan with some means of giving relief to the Dissenters without never fails to make its weight felt. any invidious test being imposed whether it anxious to show to the House that this would be possible to draw a distinction between Bill is no crotchet of my own, but that its the cases of the town parishes and the rural paprincipal objects have been contemplated rishes, in the latter of which the House might be by statesmen for whom the House has al-assured the people did not wish to see the Church ways entertained the respect due to their high talents and to their great prescience. In 1857 the late Sir Robert Peel clearly indicated the kind of measure which, in his opinion, ought to be introduced for the settlement of this question-a settlement of which he urged in the strongest terms. The Government of that day had introduced a Bill to abolish church rates, but proposed to compensate that abolition, if compensation it could be called, by taking £250,000 a year from the revenues of the Church in other words, to alienate that sum from the other objects of the Church, and apply VOL. CLXX. [THIRD SERIES.] I am "If to meet these necessities a sum were taken from the Consolidated Fund, it would relieve the landowners of the country from the duty of supWhether there should be porting the Church. any new apportionment of the charge on land, making the owner and not the occupier contribute (a plan which he avowed would, in his opinion, be justice), thus continuing the connection between degraded-whether it was possible to do these things he was not then prepared to say, but, at least, such a measure deserved the best consideration." [3 Hansard, xxxvii. 326-7.] If the House will consider the indications thus given by Sir Robert Peel, who was not then in office, of the kind of measure which he considered requisite to settle this question, they will find that he suggested, first, a new apportionment of the charge of church rates upon land, making the owner and not the occupier liable; secondly, that the measure should give relief to Dissenters without the imposition of any invidious test; and thirdly, that it should make a distinc 2 S |