appeal to his hon. Friends who represented | derived a secular advantage from the visits rural districts, and ask them what would of scripture readers, of which it was not be the state of a parish in any of those desirable to deprive them. districts-and it must be remembered that the population of a rural family was composed of comparatively innocent peopleif the rector was never allowed to cross the threshold of any cottage except when the Occupier had thought fit to send for him. He believed, that if such were the case, the ginshop would be better attended than the church. Again, it was said, that if the Bill passed, the thin end of the wedge would be introduced. Such an argument as that might have been applicable in 1829, when the Catholic Relief Bill was introduced; it might have been applicable at various stages in that path of toleration which this country had happily for so many years been pursuing; but when they had arrived, as they almost had, at the end of that course which had added such lustre to the history of England, he hoped the House of Commons would not pause, but would assist in wiping away this, one of the last stains of intolerance and bigotry. MR. WHALLEY, who spoke amidst much interruption, said, he should support the Amendment. The grievances which the Bill was proposed to redress were purely imaginary. At all events, beyond the speeches of the supporters of the measure. there was no evidence of any grievance, no reliable data in the shape of a report from any governor or chaplain of a gaol, or any other authentic document whatever. Nor had there been any answer given, or attempted, to the objection of the hon. Member for Devonshire, that in the measure the Government were introducing a new principle of taxation, by giving to the magistrates, who did not represent the taxpayers, the power of imposing a rate upon those taxpayers for the purposes of the Bill. There would be, in short, taxation without representation, a principle of legislation that ought not to be sanctioned. Then, again, the Returns on the table showed that scarcely 5 per cent of the Roman Catholic prisoners had desired to see a priest, whereas he would now be forced upon them, and they would be prevented from seeing a Protestant clergy. man. Moreover, the managers of the Perth prison stated in effect, in their report to the Home Secretary, that the proposal he had made would not be favourable to prison discipline; and that, apart from the religious question, the prisoners LORD ADOLPHUS VANE TEMPEST said, he did not dispute the passing of the measure on religious and sectarian grounds. His feelings were in favour of complete toleration and Christian feeling towards all denominations; but he did not think the Bill would afford the redress which was assumed, or relieve the grievances alleged to exist. Petitions had been received against it from the justices of the following counties and places:-Suffolk, Norfolk, Hull, Swansea, Lancaster, Sussex, Surrey, Bury St. Edmunds, Devon, Southwell, Northumberland, Derby, Durham, Somerset, Nottingham, Dorset, Leicester, Warwick, Lancashire, Leeds, Lincoln, Stamford. Yet the magistrates were the parties at whose discretion it was to be carried out. The conclusion, therefore, to which he came was that the Bill would be a dead letter; so that, instead of being an act of Christian toleration, it was a mere farce and piece of clap-trap-an indication of the political storm which might shortly be expected in the political horizon. If it was desirable that these prisoners should have a minister of their own faith, let those ministers be appointed, and the money be voted by that House. That, he thought, was a fair principle, which he was not at all prepared to dispute. It was because he believed that the measure would be productive of strife that he felt bound to vote against the second reading; but in pursuing that course he was anxious to disconnect himself from any imputation of being actuated by sectarian feeling. MAJOR HAMILTON said, that as a Scotch Member, he wished to remind the House that at the county meetings recently held in Scotland the measure had met with unanimous disapproval. He had further to observe, that as he read the third clause of the Bill, a clergyman of any denomination might be called in at the express wish of the prisoners. If that were so, the members of any sect might have their peculiar services performed at the expense of the county. In Scotland there was a sect called the Jumpers, and under this clause respectable people going to church some Sunday morning might be treated to the spectacle of the national dance of Scotland performed before the gaol; or if it were in Wales, were Mormonism was said to be on the increase, they might be met by a file of Mormon ladies proceeding to Brown, J. worship in the gaol in their peculiar cos- | Bramston, T. W. SIR GEORGE GREY said, that as he But Cardwell, rt. hon. E. Coke, hon. Colonel Fortescue, hon. F. D. Gladstone, rt. hon. W. (Sir W. Jolliffe) had given notice, for Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided:-Ayes 172; Noes 141 Majority 31. Main Question put, and agreed to. Gower, hon. F. L. Hamilton, Lord C. Headlam, rt. hon. T. E. Henley, Lord Hennessy, J. P. Hervey, Lord A. Manners, rt. hn.Lord J. Martin, J. Monsell, rt. hon. W. O'Ferrall, rt. hn. R. M. Palmerston, Viscount Powell, J. J. Sheridan, H. B. Stuart, Colonel Talbot, C. R. M. Taylor, P. A. Herbert, rt. hon. H. A. Thompson, H. S. Vandeleur, Colonel Berkeley, hon. C. P. F. Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T. Bouverie, hon. P. P. Barnes, T. Bowyer, Sir G. Hutt, rt. hon. W. Ingham, R. Villiers, rt. hon. C. P. Langton, W. H. G. Lefroy, A. Leighton, Sir B. Bill considered in Committee. Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 (Application of Act). MR. MURE said, he rose to move an Amendment in the clause to the effect that the Bill should not extend to Scotland. He believed that in making that proposal he was not violating the great rule that we should do unto others as we would wish that we should be done unto. The decisive argument, on which it was proposed that the Bill should be introduced into England was, that under what was known as the "special request" clause prisoners frequently abstained from asking Mowbray, rt. hon. J. for the services of ministers of their own Miller, W. Mills, J. R. Montgomery, Sir G. Morris, D. R. persuasion, and that Roman Catholic and other clergymen were thus excluded from prisons in many cases in which their attendance would be desirable and beneficial. But that argument would not apply to Scotland, because there was in that country no such rule as the special request clause. Rule 98, sanctioned by the Secretary of State in 1854, under the powers of an Act of Parliament, provided that a prisoner who was not a member of the Established Church might be visited by the minister of his own persuasion, under such restrictions as might be imposed by the County Board to guard against the introduction of improper persons and to prevent improper communications. He had ascertained what in practice was the operation of the rule. In Dundee full permission was given to any clergyman to visit prisoners belonging to his own denomination, whether requested to do so or not. In Glasgow any clergyman applying to see prisoners of his own denomination was permitted to visit them without being specially sent for; but if any prisoner professed a wish to be under the ministration of the gaol chaplain, he was allowed to exercise his own option in that respect. All that could be expected by persons differing in opinion from the Established Church was already given, and he had never heard of the slightest complaint. He believed that the rule was not acted upon very extensively, but that was not the fault of the rule, or of the ministers being ignorant of who were in prison, be- | Scotch people if the Bill were forced upon cause a register was kept similar to the one them. But unless there was some union proposed by this Bill. The working of the Bill in Scotland would, he thought, be found to be most prejudicial, inasmuch as it would introduce the religious element into the County Boards in Scotland, with whom it would lie to grant admission to the local prisons to clergymen of the Roman Catholic faith. Great heart-burnings and much agitation in the event of their refusing such admission would be the result, and he was therefore desirous to see Scotland excluded from the operation of the Bill. SIR GEORGE GREY said, he would admit that the hon. and learned Gentleman was correct that the rule which prevailed in Scotland was different from that in England; but if he would refer to the 23 & 24 Vict., c. 103, sec. 15, he would find that it contained a provision to the effect that County Boards in Scotland should have the superintendence of the local prisons in their counties, and should have power to appoint the chaplains, provided always the chaplains so appointed should be ministers or licentiates of the Church of Scotland. That being so, it was clear that the omission of the word "Scotland" from the Bill would entirely defeat its object, and would preclude the local Boards from granting a remuneration to any other chaplains except those who were members of that Church. There were, he might add, according to a Return which had been presented to the House, 173 Roman Catholic prisoners in Glasgow gaol, and it appeared that only three out of the number had received the ministrations of a clergyman belonging to their own faith. It was clear, therefore, that legislation on the subject was required, while, he might observe, the legislation proposed would not be introducing the religious element into the local boards for the first time, inasmuch as the appointment of lay teachers who were not members of the Established Church of the country had formed the subject of discussion at those Boards, such teachers having been, in more than one instance, appointed. MR. NEWDEGATE said, it would be no doubt much against the feeling of the among Protestants, they would infallibly see the object of Cardinal Wiseman accomplished, that of having the Church of Rome established in this country; and he thought the hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) and the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) might congratulate themselves that from year to year the designs of Cardinal Wiseman were advancing nearer to accomplishment, designs which had been openly and honestly avowed by their chief promoter. The question of a repeal of the union with Ireland had been advocated, and he did not say that there were not reasons which might justify it, but he never heard any sane man propose a repeal of the union with Scotland, and he was not going by his vote to give countenance to any such idea. Why were they to establish a different principle for the two countries? He respected the feelings of Scotland, he honoured her Established Church, and was ready to defend her interests whenever they were attacked, because he rejoiced in knowing that there was no real difference between her doctrines and those of the Church of England. It was on that ground that he could not support the Amendment. Conceal it as they might, great progress had been made towards the establishment of the Church of Rome in this country. If she received the concession under consideration, they would soon be called upon to appoint Roman Catholic chaplains to the navy, and to workhouses; and the next demand would be for their establishment in each parish, and for payment out of the rates, where there was a certain number of Roman Catholics in the parish. The right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) supported the Bill on the principle of doing as he would be done by; but that principle might be carried to an absurdity, for by the same argument they might do away with the Protestant character of the Constitution. In deference to the wishes of a Roman Catholic minority, they might cancel the security, that the throne should be held only by a Protestant sovereign. Such an argument might be carried to the length of positive absurdity; and as he did not see where the principle was to stop, he should vote against a separation of the Protestantism of Scotland from the Protestantism of England in this matter of prison establishment. LORD CLAUD HAMILTON said, he intended to vote against the Amendment, for so many persons from the north of Ireland went to Glasgow as to make it necessary that religious provision should be made for such of them as might be so unfortunate as to get into prison. He felt convinced that many of the fears expressed would not be realized if the Bill passed. As far as proselytizing was concerned, he believed that the mere fact of delegating to a reverend gentleman a particular charge induced him, from a sense of moral propriety, to confine himself strictly to the duties of that charge. Speaking from an experience of twenty-seven years, and having seen the good effects in the poorhouses and lunatic asylums of the north of Ireland of appointing three chaplains, the Churchman, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic, he thought the same system would work well when applied to prisoners in gaols. Did hon. Members, he would ask, consider the supplying of spiritual neans a privilege or a penalty? The principle of legislation was that all should be treated equally in the eye of the law. He thought the principle of the Bill should be extended to all parts of Her Majesty's dominions. He held MR. KINNAIRD said, that the practice | denominations were admitted? in Scotland, with regard to the matter un-it to be an act of duty to enable priests to der consideration, was much more liberal have access to the Roman Catholic prisonthan that which prevailed in England, ers wherever there was a sufficient number while the feeling of that country was ex- of the latter. In Scotland, especially on tremely strong against the measure. The the west coast, there was an enormous priests were not wanted in the prisons number of Roman Catholics, and it was a there, even at Glasgow. He hoped the hon. delusion to suppose that their number Member would take the sense of the House would not be still more increased if the on the Amendment, for it would be most Bill to amend the law relating to the unjust to Scotland to force the present Bill removal of destitute poor should pass, for upon that country. that Bill provided that six months' resi dence in England or Scotland would give the Irish poor a settlement. There was no reason why Scotland should be exempted from the operation of the Bill; for though the prison regulations in Scotland and England with regard to the admission of Roman Catholic clergymen were somewhat different, the practical working of the law was the same in both countries, and the priests really did not get access. There was undoubtedly a strong feeling in Scotland on the subject; but though he had great respect for the religious opinions of his countrymen, he nevertheless objected to anything like dictation to their representatives. Now, the Scotch Reformation Society had published an analysis of the division which took place upon the second reading of the Bill, and they divided the Scotch Members of that House into three categories-first, a black list of those who voted for the Bill; secondly, those who stayed away, of whom it was said that their absence on such a vital question ought to be held by the electors as equivalent to voting in favour of the Bill, unless some satisfactory explanation was given; and thirdly, those excellent gentlemen who voted against the Bill. But another paper accompanied that analysis, and in it some very strong language was used, to the effect that if the Bill passed, the Roman Catholic prisoners would be left to be taught in a manner contrary to the Word of God. And on the other side of that paper were certain resolutions passed by the Scotch Reformation Society. The first expressed regret at the second reading of the Bill. The second expressed regret that the leading persons in the State should have supported so obnoxious a measure. And the third-which almost amounted to a breach of the privileges of that Houso called attention to the fact that "no Gentleman from Scotland rose to give utterance to the strong indignation felt against this new system of Popish endowment," and expressed a hope that "this LORD ELCHO said, he had voted in favour of the Bill, believing that it effected a simple act of justice, and he certainly would not have supported it if he had thought, with the hon. Mover of the Amendment, that it dealt a heavy blow at the Protestant Church of Scotland. He could only understand opposition to the Bill proceeding from those who, with the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley) represented the blind bigotry and intolerance of an extreme party, and who believed that the Roman Catholic priests taught and inculcated everything that was wicked. On what possible grounds could priests be excluded from those who held the same religious faith with themselves, when clergymen of other |