facilities were offered, and certain days set apart, he was convinced that a desire to receive the ministrations of the Roman Catholic chaplains would be manifested by the prisoners of that persuasion. With regard to the payment of these chaplains, he should prefer, if they were paid at all unsatisfactory state of matters will engage (should apply as well to the northern part the serious attention of the constituencies of the kingdom as to England. If proper of Scotland when a new Parliament is to be elected." If that was not dictation to the Scotch Members as to the course they should pursue, he did not know what was; for if any hon. Gentleman from Scotland should act as he thought it his duty to do by his country and all classes of his countrymen, he was to be held up and denounced to his constituents. He regretted that he could not support the Amendment of his hon. Friend, because it would not be just to have one state of the law for one part of the kingdom and another for another. MR. BENTINCK said, he wished to state, in a few words, his reasons for voting in favour of the Amendment. He agreed with his hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate) in thinking that the Bill was part of a scheme which had been at work for centuries for the establishment of a system for promulgating the doctrines of the Roman Catholic religion. He also thought it was a Bill that was made use of for party purposes and party cabal, and that the result of these cabals would be anything but agreeable to those who had engaged in them. But agreeing, as he did, strongly with his hon. Friend as to the mischievous effects of the Bill, he was at a loss to understand the state of confusion at which he had arrived on the subject. Agreeing with him that the Bill was bad and mischievous, he could not understand how his hon. Friend could justify himself in refusing to relieve one portion of the United Kingdom, at all events, from the operation of the measure. They were always anxious to uphold the Protestant institutions in the country. He did not think that the promoters of that Bill were very anxious upon that point. Nevertheless, many of those who professed those principles with the greatest energy were found voting for the measure, which was wholly inconsistent with such professions. All he would say was, that he would cordially vote in favour of the Amendment. SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, he could not concur in the exceptional legislation which the Amendment would involve. He had voted for the second reading of the Bill in the firm belief that the House was called upon to make some change in that part of the law which applied to the admission of ministers of religion to members of their own flock. Being of that opinion, he thought the rule of the necessity of which he had some doubts-that they should be paid by the State, and not by local bodies. COLONEL SYKES said, that he had always understood that it was the practice of a Government and of a free Parliament to legislate as far as possible in conformity with the wishes of the majority of the people. But, as far as Scotland was concerned, Her Majesty's Government, by passing the Bill, was about to legislate against the wishes of the majority of the people of that country, as well as, he believed, against the wishes of the majority of the people of England. He denied that there was any wrong or grievance existing in relation to the subject, inasmuch as the fullest access was given to the ministers of all religions to visit the prisoners, if the latter desired their visits. It was only on the previous day that he had heard that it was the practice of the minister of the Roman Catholic Church who was in the constant habit of visiting the inmates of the prison of Edinburgh, to baptize children in spite of the objections of the authorities of the prison, if he found that one of the parents was a Roman Catholic. Now, that was a wrong done by the priest which should not be allowed. His principal objection to the measure was, that it imposed a new religious endowment upon the country. He should vote in favour of the Amendment. MR. BLACK said, that although no one had more warmly opposed, on former occasions, any attempt at intimidation on the part of the society to which the noble Lord (Lord Elcho) had referred, than himself, he should upon principle vote against extending the operation of the Bill to Scotland. He was in favour of carrying religious toleration to the fullest extent; but men were put into prison for punishment. It was impossible, in the nature of things, to carry out toleration and freedom in a prison. He doubted whether much good was done either by Roman Catholic or Protestant ministers in gaols. The prisoners, he feared, came out very much what they were when they went in. They received more good from the visits of benevolent persons who sat and read with them, and in whom they had confidence, than from the ministrations either of Roman Catholic or Protestant clergymen. He feared they were about to cut off a great deal of benevolent visitation by the Bill. In Scotland the Prison Boards were not restricted in respect to teachers; they could send in a Roman Catholic as well as a Protestant if he were a good teacher. He asserted confidently that no Roman Catholic would ever be elected as a chaplain to a gaol in Scotland. Some obstreperous individual might take the opportunity of making a "flare-up," and plaguing his neighbours by proposing the appointment of a Roman Catholic chaplain, but he would know all the time that he could not succeed. He opposed the Bill, because he believed it would sow dissension in every Prison Board in Scotland. MR. STIRLING said, it would be unfortunate if the Bill should sow dissensions in the Prison Boards of Scotland; but religious dissensions could not always be avoided, nor was it desirable that they should never occur. It was surely fit and proper that the inmates of prisons should be supplied with religious instruction by those belonging to the same form of worship. Whether religious teaching was to be considered, as it had been put by the noble Lord the Member for Tyrone, as a penalty or punishment, if one portion of the prisoners had a right to it, so had the others. It had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey), that out of 173 Roman Catholics in Glasgow gaol only three had been visited by a priest of their own persuasion within a period of three months. If that were so, it was a very unfortunate circumstance. His hon. Friend the Member for Perth suggested that that circumstance showed great lukewarmness on the part of the priesthood in Glasgow; but he thought he had at other times heard a very different argument from his hon. Friend-namely, that the very fact of a religious instructor not being asked for was a proof that his services were all the more required. He regretted very much having to differ on this or any other question from his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Mure); but he could not support his Amendment. He was quite aware that many in Scotland were opposed to the provisions of the Bill; but they had to consider in that House not only the wishes of the majority, but the claims of justice. He therefore thought that Roman Catholic prisoners had a right to be placed on an equal footing with others, and he should support the clause in its present shape. MR BAXTER said, he should vote for the Amendment, because in Scotland clergymen of all denominations had already freer access to the members of their own communion who were inmates of gaols than the Bill would give them. Not only clergymen, but all Christian readers and instructors, had at present perfect liberty to attend upon prisoners in Scotland, and he perfectly agreed with the hon. Member for Edinburgh that in many instances the labours of these lowly readers and instructors were much more acceptable than the labours of ordained clergymen. The Roman Catholic priest most zealously visited the Roman Catholic prisoners in the gaol of Dundee. He therefore objected to the alteration of the law in regard to Scotland, as it would prevent the visits of missionaries whose assiduities had often been found most useful. He was glad the noble Lord (Lord Elcho) had drawn attention to the extremely improper circular from the Scottish Reformation Society. In his humble opinion, that society was doing a great deal of harm to the cause of Protestantism, not only in Scotland, but in this country. That society seemed to be kept up for the special benefit of one particular clergyman, who, instead of attending to his own duties, went about lecturing on his favourite topic throughout the country. He should support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Bute, but without being influenced in the slightest degree by any fear for the Protestant institutions of the country. MR. MAGUIRE said, he was rather surprised at the conclusion of the speech which he had just heard from the hon. Gentleman. He thought it calculated to play into the hands of those clerical agitators whose influence the hon. Member for Montrose had deprecated. He could not believe, that if this measure were applied to Scotland, no Catholic clergyman would be appointed in the large towns. The best results had arisen from the constant communication and influence of Roman Catholic clergymen upon prisoners, and he believed that public opinion would be too strong for bigotry. He could not agree with the hon. Member for Edinburgh that no good could result from religious teaching in prison. The influence of re mour. MR. CRUM-EWING said, he should support the Motion of the hon. Member for Buteshire, because he was opposed to all legislative endowments. He thought there must be some mistake in the statement that in Glasgow only three prisoners had been visited by Catholic priests, because he was well acquainted with the Bishop of Glasgow, and knew him to be most zealous in the discharge of the functions of his office. ligion was powerful even on the most de- | of Scotland swarmed with Irish Roman praved. When good results had followed Catholics, who in some districts constituted from the ministrations of Roman Catholic one-fourth of the population. He protested clergymen among Roman Catholic prison- against the view that this measure would ers belonging to the army, he did not see introduce agitation into Scotland, or that why persons should object to similar cleri- it was not likely the prison boards would cal attendance upon the unfortunate in- sanction the appointment of Catholic chapmates of gaols. There were 100,000 lains. The electors of the prison boards Roman Catholics in Glasgow alone. These were for the most part men of property were amongst the poorest of the population, connected with the counties, and not at and consequently most exposed to tempta. all likely to be influenced by public clation, and a number of them would sometimes be found in the prisons. The question was whether these prisoners were to be improved or not? He was as anxious as any one could be for the advancement of the Church to which he belonged, but he denied all knowledge of a "gigantic conspiracy" to press the Roman Catholic system upon the people of England. Was this a free country or was it not? Had the Roman Catholics been emancipated or had they not? If they had been so emancipated, why should the State deny to the prisoners belonging to that denomination the same means of improvement and the same agencies for reformation which were accorded to professing members of all other religious bodies? Fears were entertained of proselytism by the Roman Catholic priests. He had no hesitation in saying, that if a Roman Catholic clergyman attempted to interfere with the religious belief of Protestants or Presbyterians in the institution of which he was a paid officer, he would vote for his expulsion from office. He thought those gentlemen, who for the most trifling causes were always declaiming about danger to Protestant in stitutions, showed very little confidence in the stability of their own religion, and did much towards shaking its foundations. MR. BUCHANAN said, his reason for supporting the present Bill was, that he regarded it as a complement to past legislation. The House had, on many occasions, affirmed the principle of supporting the College of Maynooth. They had also voted large sums for education, parts of which were notoriously applied in support of Roman Catholic schools. It would be an extraordinary thing if, while they were educating Roman Catholic youth and the Roman Catholic priesthood, they were now to grudge a pittance for the spiritual instruction of criminals undergoing sentence in gaols. He could not consent to the proposal that England should, in regard to this measure, be separated from Scotland. The western coast VOL CLXX. THIRD SERIES] MR. MACKIE said, he should also vote for the Amendment. At the same time, he must deprecate the dictatorial tone towards Scotch Members which had been assumed by the Scottish Reformation Society. MR. NEWDEGATE said, he should, as he had already stated, vote against the Amendment, actuated by no unfriendly feeling towards Scotch Protestants, but simply because their only chance of retaining their present freedom was by making common cause with the Protestants of England against the principle of the Bill. The Scottish Reformation Society, which had been disparaged and calumniated that night, had only exercised an undoubted privilege in commenting on the conduct of Scotch Members. Was the House to proceed as though its acts did not concern the public? The noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) seemed so sore about the comments that had been made upon his conduct and that of other Scotch Members, that he almost thought it necessary to claim the protection of the House, but really asked them to silence that society. Had there not been the Synod of Thurles, and was there not throughout Ireland interference with elections on the part of the Roman hierarchy and priesthood? Was the House about to declare that those who entertained opposite opinions should be silenced, or would they deal with equal justice to the adherents to two classes of religionists holding different opinions? They might 2 X the elements of resistance, and thus encouraging miscalled toleration, which was not toleration at all, but disguised tyranny. It was mealy-mouthed declamation to talk of liberty, when hon. Members were promoting intolerance by this departure from the principle of true liberty, which could only be maintained by continuing to support, and by giving free scope to the religion which the State had established, and which was founded upon the great principle of toleration. MR. MURE said, that his position was that the existing law of Scotland so far differed from that of England as to render unnecessary the application of the provisions of this Bill to that country. So far was he from having acted under the dictation of the Scottish Reformation Society, as the noble Lord seemed to suppose-[Lord ELCHO: I never said so.] say that that was a question of mere religious opinion; but the House was asked to vote money; and were those who objected to the endowment to be silenced, in the House and in the country, by those who were pursuing a course which was known to be adverse to the feelings of a great part of the population? The noble Lord had condemned an hon. Member who had spoken truly of certain distinctive features of the religion he objected to endow, but did the noble Lord understand what he was speaking about? Had he ever read the standard works of the Church of Rome? [Lord ELCHO: No.] The noble Lord reJoiced in his ignorance, and, happy in his ignorance, he was willing to vote money for the propagation of a religion of which he knew as little as he did of Bhuddism. The hon. Member did not believe that the doctrines he was about to enforce on prisoners were true. The Committee was that the only communication which he asked not only to vote money for the teach- had received from that society was a civil ing of these doctrines, but to compel the letter, stating that his Amendment was teaching of these doctrines, by excluding an injudicious one, and asking him to certain prisoners from all other teaching. withdraw it. If once a prisoner declared himself a Roman SIR GEORGE GREY said, that acCatholic, he was to be placed at the mercy cording to his view, the existing law of of some priest, whatever his remonstrances Scotland precluded the appointment of any or objections. By the existing law a Ro- Roman Catholic priest as chaplain to a man Catholic could be attended by a priest gaol. A Return showed that at one time if he liked, but there was no compulsion; there were in Edinburgh gaol sixty-one and he knew that there were many who members of the Established Church of prayed that they might be spared the visits Scotland, thirty members of the Free of the priest and the teaching of the doc- Church of Scotland, and fifty-seven Ro trine which the Protestant Members of the man Catholics; there was an Established House did not believe. But the House Church chaplain, who had a salary of voted that they should not be spared these £160 annually, and a Free Church misvisits, and it voted more; it voted that the sionary teacher, who had £65; but there chaplain of the Established Church should was no provision for the Roman Catholics. not have access to these prisoners if once In the Glasgow gaol, out of 173 prisonentered as Roman Catholics. They voted ers, there were only three who made the more than that. Believing as they did," special request for the attendance of a that the Bible contained saving truth, they voted that these prisoners should not be allowed to see it. Did they call that civil and religious liberty? He knew that hon. Members did not like the purport of the Bill, and yet they voted for it. He respected the conscientious scruples of the people of Scotland, and he believed that their feeling against the measure was so strong, that if it were extended to Scotland, it would remain inoperative; but he refused to separate the legislation for England and Scotland upon this subject, and for that reason only should vote against the Amendment. He would not play into the hands of those who would enforce the teaching they did not believe by dividing priest. Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause." The Committee divided :-Ayes 96; Noes 55: Majority 41. Clause agreed to. Clause 3 (Additional Ministers in Prisons, and Regulation as to Admission of Minister). MR. HUNT said, he had voted against the second reading of the Bill with considerable hesitation, and did so only because of the provision for payment of the ministers to be appointed under it. If that provision were struck out, he would gladly give his support to the Bill. He MR. WHALLEY said, that no inproposed, as an Amendment, to strike out stance had been given of any injustice the whole of the clause to the third pa- which, for want of the proposed power ragraph, and to alter it so as to make it of payment, had been done under the law read to the effect that the justices, coun- as it stood. He had no wish to deprive ty hoard, or other persons having the Roman Catholic prisoners of any reli appointment of chaplains in any prison gious consolation which they might demight, if they thought fit, without special sire; but while the Roman Catholic rerequest of any prisoner, allow the minis- ligion, of itself, was entitled to the same ter of any church or persuasion to which respect which he desired for his own, he any prisoners might belong to visit them could not forget that associated with it was at proper times. The clause thus amend a policy which in every age and in every ed would enable the magistrates to allow country had been found inconsistent with ministers to visit prisoners of their church social order and happiness, and with po without any special request from them. If litical independence. If the right hon. he, a Protestant, were in a Roman Catho- Gentleman (Sir Robert Peel) and the Golic prison, in a Roman Catholic country, he verument would grant him a Committee, could not expect the people of that country he would undertake to show that the to furnish him with, and pay for a minister Riband societies of Ireland could only be of his own religion. There was no instance explained by the fact that they were orof any provision made in this country for ganized by the priesthood of Ireland; and the payment by law of ministers of another the difference between the condition of the persuasion than the Established Church, north and that of the south of Ireland except in the case of Roman Catholic could only be explained by the incessant chaplains for the army, who stood in a pe- activity in the south of the Irish priests. culiar position, because Roman Catholic He was accused of being a blind bigot; soldiers were often sent abroad, where and if it were bigotry to have a strong and ministers of their own persuasion could not unswerving attachment to the Constitution possibly have any access to them. and the laws of this country, with which were bound up the welfare and the prosperity of the country, he willingly accepted the compliment. No results had followed the attempt of the Government to conciliate the Roman Catholic priests. There was no evidence of increased loyalty on their part. On the contrary, there was evidence that these priests, and the system which they represented, were an organized political conspiracy in this country Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 1, to leave out, at the beginning of the Clause, the words "Where the SIR GEORGE GREY said, the object of the Bill was to enable local authorities to make specific provision for the spiritual wants of Roman Catholic prisoners and those of other denominations; but the effect of the Amendment, if adopted, would be to assimilate the law of England with that they were associated, here and that of Scotland, and the House had just elsewhere, with political designs which were decided that the law of Scotland should be inconsistent with loyalty and with selfaltered; it would also, in effect, prevent government. They had it on the authority the magistrates from engaging the services of Sir George Grey, Governor of New of a Roman Catholic minister, however Zealand, that wherever he went in that numerous might be the prisoners of that colony he found the Roman Catholic priests persuasion, and it would, indeed, be tanta- working in opposition to him; and there mount to a rejection of the Bill. The hon. could be no doubt that in Canada also eviGentleman was not accurate in stating dence would be found to show that Engthat there was no other provision, by law, land's difficulties were the priests' opportufor the payment of Roman Catholic priests nities. He found that at a Roman Catholic except that made for the benefit of Roman festival at Brentford, Lord Petre in the Catholic soldiers serving abroad. The fact chair, and Cardinal Wiseman on his right was, that provision was made for the pay-hand, the health of the Pope was the first ment of eighteen commissioned Roman Catholic chaplains, exclusive altogether of the provision for troops serving abroad; and besides this, the religious instruction of Roman Catholic military prisoners was duly cared for. toast, and that of the Cardinal the second, The health of the Queen was omitted, as was also the case at gatherings of Roman Catholic young men's societies in Liverpool and other places. At other Roman Catholic festivals The Queen" was given, 46 |