MR. LAIRD said, he believed the works proposed by the Government would not make Holyhead harbour either safe or convenient, and he entertained a confident expectation that the appointment of the proposed Committee would ultimately save a considerable amount of public money. MR. CONOLLY said, that nothing could be more incomplete than the proposals of the Government; and incomplete as they were, nothing had been done towards car rying them them out. A little pressure applied to the Government would be very useful. did not see that a Select Committee could | if we please, to the strongest weapon of obtain any more information than was now a minority, and to move the adjournment. possessed by the Government and the As, however, I well know that such a House, and he therefore opposed the Mo- proceeding would not effectually stop the tion. Bill, and would merely entail upon the other side of the House the vexation of staying up to as late an hour on some other occasion to carry the third reading, I will propose a compromise. I will speak for eight minutes, and, if I am not interrupted, I will then sit down. On this understanding then, I proceed to say, that those who are in favour of this Bill, call us who are opposed to it, humanitarians. I confess, of the two, I had rather figure as the friend than as the enemy of mankind; but I mean to argue the question on the ground, not of humanity, but of policy. In the first place then, Sir, your existing laws are quite strong enough to repress crimes of violence, and no change is necessary. Examine the criminal statistics of the last fifteen years. Note especially the crimes of violence. Are they gaining on society, or is society gaining on them? Look at each of the three last quinquennial periods, and then say whether there is anything to alarm you? Quite recently crime has been unusually rife, but why? Simply because bad times invariably bring MR. PEEL stated, that the promises of the Government were in process of being carried out. The very thing for which the hon. and gallant Member expressed anxiety the solidification of the pier had already been carried out to a great extent. MR. GEORGE denied that driving piles with considerable intervals between each amounted, in fact, to a solidification of the pier. Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 73, Noes with them crime, as they bring with them 47; Majority 26. If fever or other forms of disease. This A few years ago to alter the punishments appropriated to against this stupid and atrocious appendix this class of crime which are now on the to Adderley on Human Happiness-and statute-book; but if hon. Members are that I move that the Bill be read a third utterly purposed to alter them, when and time this day six months. how has it been proved that they should alter them in kind rather than in degree? I can understand those who say that the course of modern legislation upon the sub ject of punishment is wrong; that physical punishments are better than moral punish ments; and that the sooner we begin to alter the whole of our system the better; but if we are to do this, let us do it after the solemn deliberation which befits so great a step. The best modern jurists have pronounced most strongly against those punishments which are classed by the greatest of English jurists, Mr. Bentham, as MR. COX seconded the Amendment. Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Quesupon this day six tion to add the words " 66 months." The House divided :-Ayes 76; Noes 18: Majority 58. Main Question put, and agreed to. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL. On Motion of Mr. WILLIAM EWART, Bill for decimalizing our existing system of Weights and Measures, and for establishing an accordance between them and those of Foreign Conntries, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WILLIAM EWART, Mr. ADDERLEY, Mr. COBDEN, and Mr. FINLAY. AMENDMENT BILL. On Motion of Mr. Cox, Bill to amend the Leases and Sales of Settled Estates Act, 1856, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Cox and Sir MORTON PETO. Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 119.] PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. Bill read 2o, and committed. Ordered, That the Bill, so far as it relates to the confirmation of the Orders 4 and 5 in the Schedule thereto, for the construction of Piers at Llandudno and Rhyl, be referred to a Select ComHouse adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock. mittee. "afflictive punishments." Are all the hon. Members who vote for this Bill distinctly minded to break with the doctrines of modern jurisprudence upon this subject? Are not many voting merely to protest against the remissness of the Home Office, and of the Police, or to show the criminal class that society does not mean to be LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES ACT trifled with; and is it really worth while to alter your legislation for any or all of these purposes? If the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman were new, it might be very right to try it; but it is as old as the worst passions of human nature. Fierce and cruel punishments are the first thought of the savage, who wishes to keep up his authority. The right hon. Gentleman imitates at a humble distance the traditional sagacity of Cochin China. There is not one nation in Europe which has not begun with punishments of the kind the right hon. Gentleman now wishes to bring back; and as fast as each of these has advanced in civilization, she has abandoned one after another. Even in Russia, they have just abolished the knout; and perhaps if the Bill passes, the question as to the particular instrument to be used might be best settled by the right hon. Gentleman and some of his friends subscribing to buy for the Government, and inscribing their honoured names upon, the knouts which are no longer required. They would probably get them cheap. I have many more arguments to advance, but my hon. Friend who sits near me reminds me that my eight minutes are over: and as the hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House have kept their share of the bargain, it is only fair I should keep mine. I only beg to say, in conclusion, that I shall vote with peculiar satisfaction HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, May 13, 1863. MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- Select Committee nominated-On Church Build- Withdrawn-Poisoned Grain Prohibition [Bill 90]. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL. Bill for decimalizing our existing system of Weights and Measures, and for establishing an accordance between them and those of Foreign Countries, presented, and read 1o. [Bill 120.] STATUTE LABOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) BILL—[BILL 63.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. SIR JOHN OGILVY, in rising to move the second reading of this Bill, the object of which was to enable districts in Scotland to raise contributions by means of a new assessment for the construction of roads, and to provide for their management, said, it had been prepared in accordance with a general desire expressed by Members from Scotland. Its principle had been generally approved in Scotland, but some suggestions had been made for its Amendment, which he should be willing to consider in Committee. MR. HOPE JOHNSTONE did not ob ject to the principle of the Bill, but thought that some modifications of its provisions must be made, especially with regard to the assessments for repairs of roads. He was glad to find that the Bill was permissive only; but he would suggest that a permissive power should be given to trus. tees of districts, if they should see fit, to vary the proportion of assessment to be levied upon the owners, limiting that proportion to a sum not exceeding one-half of the whole amount to be levied. This would practically leave it to the landowners to assess themselves for more extensive works than the mere ordinary repair of roads. hoped that hon. Members who desired that the Bill should be made compulsory, would remember the difficulties which were found to prevent the passing of a more comprehensive measure some years ago. The Commissioners were of opinion, that whatever might be the change in the mode of raising the money for the improvement of the turnpike roads in Scotland, that improvement should not be delayed. It was desirable now to take one step towards the general improvement of the roads of Scotland, which the Royal Commission wished to bring about. he also objected to the Bill being made a compulsory measure, as he thought the best course was to proceed cautiously at first. future stage he should propose a clause in MR. DALGLISH gave notice that at a favour of gas and water companies, and also a clause giving greater powers to the ratepayers in the election of trustees. SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY, approving the principle, thought the Bill had been drawn to suit the cases of particular counties, and therefore would require considerable alterations in Committee. that while he supported the principle of SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, the Bill, he thought it necessary that they should proceed with great caution. He hoped his hon. Friend would not listen to any suggestion to make the Bill compulsory. MR. DUNLOP suggested that the Bill should be committed pro formâ, that it might be considered in Scotland during the holydays. SIR JOHN OGILVY would adopt the suggestion offered by the hon. Member. Bill read 2o, and committed for Friday. STATUTE LABOUR ROADS AND MR. BLACKBURN assented to the principle of this Bill, but said he thought the details would require very careful consideration in Committee. The Bill would cast a burden upon property which before BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) TRANSFER BILL. had not been liable to assessment, such as railways and minerals. He did not say that railways ought not to contribute; but it would have to be considered upon what proportion of their value they should be assessed. He doubted the propriety of making the Bill permissive only, as he thought the law should be the same all over Scotland. SIR ANDREW AGNEW supported the Bill, which he thought would be very beneficial, and thought the House were much indebted to the exertions of his hon. Friend (Sir John Ogilvy). SIR JAMES FERGUSSON said, that having been a Member of the Royal Commission which considered this subject, he VOL. CLXX. [THIRD SERIES.] [BILL 64.] Read 2o, and committed for Friday. JUDGMENTS, &c. LAW AMENDMENT Order for Second Reading read. 3 H operation, and did not affect Ireland. The search for a judgment, yet if he, or his object of the Bill was to place real estate solicitor or agent, had notice of one, he on the same footing with regard to future would be bound by such notice, and could judgments as personal property-that recover against the purchased property. was to say, that no purchaser or mortgagee In that same case an unsuccessful atshould be obliged as at present to make tempt was made to fix the purchaser with searches for judgments. From a Return the consequences of a verbal notice alleged for which he had moved, it appeared that by the vendor to have been given to the in one year and ten months 3,051 judg- purchaser's solicitor, but positively denied ments were registered, and, of this number, by that Gentleman. If the notice had 1,894, or somewhat more than three-fifths, been deemed to be sufficient, these conwere for sums under £200. What pos- sequences would have followed-namely, sible interest could the House have in the vendor would keep the money he had prolonging such a state of things? Every received on the sale of his property, and power should be given to a creditor to en- he would have enabled a judgment creforce his claim, but that power should not ditor of his own to recover his debt from be allowed to affect transactions which the purchaser, to whom the property had were not his own. Yet, for the sake of been sold, and paid for; and, as he (Mr. these 3,051 judgment creditors, every Hadfield) considered, the law would have purchaser, according to Lord St. Leonards given the creditor precedence over the in his invaluable work on Vendors and purchaser, who had previously held a Purchasers, was obliged to search the mortgage upon the property. Five Acts registry to see whether a judgment was had passed during the present reign in recorded against the vendor; and this search order to soften the asperity of the law on must extend to the very morning of the this particular subject, and he hoped that day on which the purchase was completed. the House would now go a step further, He was acquainted with a case where a and say that it was not wise to throw a judgment was discovered and telegraphed doubt upon transactions between the buyer on the morning of the day which had and seller of real estate. In the year 1860, been fixed on to complete an important the House of Lords sent down a Bill, which purchase. He estimated the yearly num- provided, in addition to all other requiber of conveyances of all kinds, that sites, execution should issue within three were affected by the present law, at months from the date of the judgment, and 30,000 and upwards; and this opinion was the House of Commons sanctioned it; but confirmed by an official Gentleman con- that did not obviate the necessity of a nected with the Stamp Office department. search within those three months. This Was it to be tolerated that every honest state of things was what he sought to put purchaser, against whom there was no an end to by this Bill. Why should a pretence for saying that there was any purchaser in Northumberland be put to collusion between him and the vendor, the expense of consulting the registry in should be put to such a risk? It add- London? And why should every pured to the perplexity of conveyancing chaser of real estate in the country be that there was a difference of opinion under such a responsibility? The cost amongst eminent men learned in the law. of doing so formed a serious item in a He had stated what Lord St. Leonards small conveyance; and if there was more advised as to the necessity of searching than one necessary party to the conveyfor judgments, and the same doctrine had ance, the expense was, of course, proporbeen held by conveyancers generally for a tionally increased. As to notice, the Bill long time past; but the Master of the provided that no judgment should affect Rolls had decided (see Lane v. Jackson, transactions between the seller and a bonâ 20 Beavan, 535) that "it was not incum- fide purchaser or mortgagee, for full bent on a purchaser for valuable consi- and valuable consideration, and whether deration to search for judgments." This such purchaser or mortgagee had notice decision would be important, if it could or not. He thought notice a very danbe depended upon as sound in law; but, gerous thing. It was of importance unfortunately, that was not the fact. It that the existence of a judgment against had taken counsel by surprise; but assum- a person who wanted to go into the maring it to be law, the case added to the ket to sell his property, should not be difficulties thrown on a bona fide pur-known; because a person having a judgchaser. This learned judge held, that ment against him was not in a position though a purchaser was not obliged to to demand as fair a price as could be ob tained by a person who had no judgment | agree to pass it without delay. When he against him. It was known that a com- first commenced the practice of his promercial society was formed, to report on fession, the law with respect to the liaregistered judgments, and warn against bility of personal property to judgments giving credit to persons in embarrassed cir- was in precisely the same position as it was cumstances. The question might present at present. Whether it was a picture worth some difficulties, but Parliament ought not a thousand guineas, or a chair or table, to adhere to old abuses and obsolete laws until the sheriff had in his hand the writ which threw such obstacles in the way of of execution, and took the personal propurchasers. He moved the second reading of perty into his possession, a judgment was this Bill, with a strong conviction that the not of the slightest value; but with reprofession throughout the whole country gard to land, whether the estate were would hail it as a great improvement, and great or small, as soon as a creditor obthat it would tend most beneficially to tained judgment that judgment became a facilitate the transfer of real estate. lien upon the land; and at that period a purchaser was obliged to search the records of every Court of Record in the kingdom the King's Bench, the Common Pleas, and the Exchequer for twenty years back, in order to ascertain whether or not the estate he was about to buy was liable to any judgment debts. That was the state of the law until 1838. It was found, however, to entail such monstrous evils that an Act was then passed-the 1 & 2 Vict., c. 110-by which it was enacted that thereafter a judgment should be binding upon every kind of estate in land(before that it had applied to freehold estate only, and not to copyholds and leaseholds) unless it had been registered in one Court MR. HUMBERSTON rose to second the Motion, and trusted that the House would assent to the second reading, for he thought that the law as it stood was extremely vexatious both to buyers and sellers of landed property. He had himself known a case in which a large estate had to be sold in lots; but, in consequence of the existence of judgment debts, and in consequence of no one purchaser being able or willing to pay the judgment debts, great delay took place in the sale of the estate; and as there was at the time a falling market, the value of the property was much depreciated, and the most ruinous results ensued to the owner of that pro--but no judgment was to be binding perty as well as to the creditors. He did not see the slightest use in retaining the law in its present state. No banker would take a judgment of this kind as security; they would only take the security of a deposit of deeds or a mortgage. The absurdity of the law became at once apparent by supposing it applied to personal property. With respect to personal property a judgment was of no value until execution issued, and that was an intelligible state of things; but suppose the law affecting real property were extended to personal property, and that a purchaser had to search for judgments before he could buy a picture at Christie & Manson's, the thing would be absurd. To make a judgment a lien on real estate only had the effect of clogging the transfer of that estate with unnecessary restrictions and imposing upon the conveyance of property unnecessary expense. He thought, that if they abolished this law, they would only be following in those steps of legal reform which they pursued last year, when they passed an Act with the object of simplifying titles and making the purchasers of land secure. MR. MALINS gave his cordial support to this Bill, and trusted that the House would the Court of Common Pleas; and it was also provided that a registered judgment should be binding for five years only. That was an immense improvement on the former state of the law. Lord St. Leonards, however,-a man more distinguished, than any one else for his knowledge and experience of the laws relating to real property, and who had spent a lifetime in framing measures which would simplify and facilitate the transfer of land saw that to make judgments a lien upon landed estates, even to the limited extent of the Act of 1838, was still a very great evil; and he introduced a Bill in 1859 which enacted that no such judgment should bind land unless a writ of execution were issued on such judgment within a limited time. He (Mr. Malins) thought that the matter would be intelligible if they said that a judgment should either bind all the property of the debtor or none; but he was unable to see any reason why land should be bound when the personal estate was not bound. He did not see the slightest difficulty in the creditor taking a memorandum of security, charging the land for the amount of his debt, in the same manner as a banker |