Majesty's Government would have reason to rejoice that, through their instrumentality in some respect at least, there was another free and happy nation in the world emulating the example and admiring the institutions of this country. THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, the noble Earl (Earl Russell) has certainly entered into the discussion of the points to which my noble Friend referred; but he has, with considerable ingenuity, avoided giving any answer to the Question that my noble Friend put to him, which affected the position of the noble Earl himself-namely, with regard to the manner in which he has performed his duties. The noble Earl argued as if my noble Friend had complained that Her Majesty's Government, after refusing to allow Prince Alfred to accept the throne of Greece-a course in which my noble Friend said, and I entirely agree, that the Government were perfectly justified-he argued as if my noble Friend had blamed the Government for having afterwards endeavoured to find some Prince among the reigning Houses of Europe to accept the throne, who might meet with the sanction, and answer the requirements, of the Greek people. Nothing was further from the purpose of my noble Friend. He did not say that the Government were liable to any objection on that head. What my noble Friend did say and justly, I believe-was that, from first to last, Her Majesty's Government had played fast and loose with the people of Greece, and had led them to entertain expectations of that upon which it was after wards found impossible to act. I will not enter into the motives of Her Majesty's Government in hesitating so long before they announced that the candidature of Prince Alfred was out of the question; but I believe certainly that Her Majesty's Go. vernment had made up their minds upon the subject at a very early period, and they may think that they gained a political object by playing off Prince Alfred's candidature against that of the Duke of Leuchtenberg. But I must say that I was astonish ed to hear the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs declare that in keeping the Greeks in a state of uncertainty as to their future position, and that upon a question of vital importance, he conferred great advantage upon them. The noble Earl said that this long period of uncertainty had been of great advantage to the Greek people, by giving them the means of being united upon one subject, and that that kept them from dangers which they might otherwise have fallen into. Is the noble Earl really of the opinion, that in the throes of a revolution and in the utmost uncertainty as to the future, it is for the benefit of that country that that uncertainty should be prolonged as long as possible; and that a country which was friendly should hold out -or, at all events, should not discourageexpectations that it was known would lead to disappointment; and that a friendly Government pursued a course which was consistent with the duty they owed to the Greek people when they allowed them to pursue an ignis fatuus, which could only lead them into error and might lead them hopelessly astray? If the noble Earl thinks that that evinces friendship towards a country in great difficulty, I can only say he has most extraordinary notions of the duty of a British Secretary of State. My noble Friend (the Earl of Malmesbury) did not complain that Her Majesty's Government asked, first the King of Portugal, the Duke of Coburg, and afterwards Prince William to offer themselves for the election of the Greek people; on the contrary, it might be a true act of genuine friendship to try to find the Greeks a king rather than to keep them in uncertainty for weeks; but my noble Friend did object to thisthat, according to common report, the noble Earl, on more than one occasion, repeated the error into which, I think, he fell, though he seems to think it a masterstroke of policy, in tampering with the feelings of the people of Greece and in leading them to be over-sanguine as to the acceptance of the throne by the Princes whom he recommended. Now, with regard to the candidature of Prince William of Denmark, I believe that he is a Prince very estimable in his private personal character, and that his acceptance of the throne would be an advantage to Greece. But there is this question not lightly to be passed over-whether it would be equally advantageous to Denmark and to England itself-would it be of service in avoiding complications in European affairs-that one of the three heirs of Denmark, the succession to which throne had been settled not without infinite trouble, should accept another throne, which might preclude him from succeeding to the throne of Denmark in the event of his elder brother dying without issue. With every respect for the Prince himself and for the family to which he belongs, I must say that placing upon the throne of Greece, under present circumstances, a young man of eighteen, surrounded by perfect strangers, and by those who have their own objects to serve, is an experiment of no inconsiderable risk. If that illustrious Prince decides to accept the throne of Greece, I believe that it will be accepted by one who, except with regard to his youth, will be likely to fulfil the wishes entertained and to carry on the government in the spirit of constitutional liberty. My noble Friend asked whether, with regard to Prince William, the noble Earl repeated his mistake on former occa sions in leading the Greek people to believe that by the influence and advice of England a sovereign had been found, when, in point of fact, the negotiations had not arrived at such a period as to authorize him to make that declaration to the Greeks. The question is, whether he instructed Mr. Elliot to advise the people to accept the candidature of Prince William, and whether when he gave those instructions to Mr. Elliot and that advice, he had previously ascertained, beyond possibility of doubt, that the King of Denmark himself, and Prince Christian on the part of his son, would consent to accept the throne? That is the plain and simple question put by my noble Friend. I do not ask what the precise state of the negotiations is at this time. It is not the duty of Parliament to make that inquiry, but it is our right to inquire under what circumstances the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs advised the people of Greece that the crown of Greece should be offered to the Prince of Denmark. Yet that was the question which the noble Earl had studiously avoided answering. My noble Friend asked whether it is still the intention of Her Majesty's Government to act upon the plan they have announced, of surrendering the Ionian Islands under certain circumstances to Greece. I do not know what ground the noble Earl has for supposing that my noble Friend is not perfectly aware that these islands are not colonies or possessions of this country. My noble Friend is perfectly aware that they were placed under the protectorate of this country, not for the benefit of the people themselves merely, but also in the common interest of Europe. It is idle, moreover, to say that because the Ionian Islands are formed into an independent republic, under the protectorate of England, that this country has no influence or interest in the matter. Is it of no importance to England, in a military or naval point of view, whether the Ionian Islands belong to us I will not enter or to some other Power? upon a general discussion as to the propriety or expediency of the surrender or cession of the whole or any of these Islands, but the noble Earl must be aware that such surrender or cession cannot be made without the consent of the other Powers. [Earl RUSSELL: That is what I said.] But what reason has the noble Earl for supposing that the Powers of Europe have altered their minds, and have come to the conclusion that it is desirable that the Protectorate of England should cease, and that the Ionian Islands should be handed over to the infant kingdom of Greece? I believe that, in reply to a question in another place, the noble Viscount at the head of the Government stated that there has been no communication with Austria on this subject. Considering the interest which Austria has in this question it argues no great amount of statesmanship or prudence to give up the Protectorate or to declare an intention to apply for the sanction to do so from the other Powers, unless Her Majesty's Government had ascertained that they were not likely to meet with an insuperable difficulty. The statement was no doubt literally and technically correct that no correspondence has taken place with the Government of Austria; yet the noble Viscount's answer caused some surprise, and an hon. and learned Member (Mr. Roebuck) said he had listened to it with considerable astonishment, because he was at Vienna at the time, and had seen the despatch addressed by the Austrian Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Austrian Minister in this country. The noble Earl (Earl Russell) will not deny that there was such a despatch, and it was admitted by the noble Viscount in another place, in what he might call cross-examination, that there was such a despatch, but that it was not a correspondence," because, although the despatch was read to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, it was not left with him. However, by the confession of the Government it is now clear that there was a despatch communicated by the Austrian Government, through the Austrian Ambassador, conveying the disapprobation with which Austria would view the cession of the Protectorate of the Ionian Islands. I confess I have the gravest doubts as to the policy of this cession, and I doubt whether, apart from English interests, it will be for the benefit of freedom, and whether it will further that constitutional system of Go vernment contended for by the noble Earl. | ments which had been made to the Grecks I am afraid this act will rather introduce from time to time, it would really appear an element of great turbulence and danger from the tone of noble Lords opposite as if into the kingdom of Greece, threatening the whole thing ought to have been settled great complications, and favourable to ag- and the arrangements perfectly "cut and gressions on the neighbouring Powers. I dried," without any sort of negotiation see no impossibility in the separation of either with Princes who might be candiCorfu from the other islands. There is a dates for the vacant throne, or with the great and manifest difference between these Greeks themselves. It was impossible not islands, because Corfu is a fortress of no to make communications to the Greeks, inconsiderable strength, which we hold by to keep them informed to a certain extent the general consent of Europe, and it is of the progress of events, and with a view not unimportant that England should con- of ascertaining whether a Prince likely, tinue to hold that fortress and harbour. in the opinion of the European GovernCorfu, moreover, is in no sense connected ments, to be a useful ruler, such as the with Greece. Two-thirds of the inhabi- Duke of Saxe-Coburg, would be acceptable tants are not of Greek, but Venetian origin. to them. At one time negotiations with The nearest point of Corfu is seventy miles the Duke assumed a favourable form; and from Greece; but this excitable population no doubt, if it had not been for the very are within one mile from the coast of Thes- strong feeling exhibited by his own people saly, which belongs to the very Power the and his own Chambers, the result might Ionian Islands are most desirous of invad- have been different. The noble Earl oping and attacking. These considerations posite objected to the candidature of the ought to be borne in mind, because, when young Prince of Denmark on the ground the Government proposes to reconstitute that under possible circumstances there the kingdom of Greece, it is most import- would be no Prince capable of succeeding ant that the people of that country should to the Danish throne. Considering that be encouraged to adapt themselves to peace- there were in existence three heirs male, able pursuits, to increase and develop their all young men, he thought that an obresources, and to raise themselves from the jection of a very trivial character. The deplorable position in which they are now noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) said sunk, to that of a small but respectable that the French never revolted without kingdom. I cannot help thinking that having some one ready to put on the Her Majesty's Government have acted with throne. lightness and rashness in their dealings with the Greek people, both on the subject of the election of their Sovereign and the premature announcement of their intention to surrender the Protectorate of the Ionian Islands without first communicating with the other Powers who are parties to the Treaty of Vienna. I cannot say that, in my opinion, the noble Earl has either on one point or the other satisfactorily answered the questions of my noble Friend. EARL GRANVILLE said, he entirely differed from the noble Earl in thinking that the answer given by his noble Friend the Foreign Secretary to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Malmesbury) was unsatisfactory on both points to which he had referred. The noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) charged his noble Friend with having lured on the Greeks with the hope that Prince Alfred would accept the throne. Now, he denied that his noble Friend had given any encouragement to the Greeks to suppose that there was any chance of Prince Alfred's accepting the throne of Greece. With regard to the announce THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I did not say to put on the throne; I said without some Frenchman to put at their head. EARL GRANVILLE said, he did not remember the name of the particular Frenchman towards whom the eyes of the French nation turned at the epoch of the Great Revolution, though after many years a man of surprising genius succeeded in rendering himself conspicuous. In 1848, if the views of the majority of intelligent Frenchmen had been collected, the last idea which would have presented itself to them would have been the accession of the present Emperor. The noble Earl asked whether our Minister at Athens had not been instructed to inform the Greeks of the candidature of the Prince of Denmark before any intimation was received from the Court of Denmark that such choice would be unobjectionable. To that question he would give the answer which had been given by the noble Earl-that he did not make any such communication till he had received the necessary information from the Court of Denmark, a THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: Did he receive the consent of the King of Denmark? EARL GRANVILLE: He received information that the King of Denmark had no objection to the candidature. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: Pre vious to any communication made to the Greeks? EARL GRANVILLE: Previous to his intimation to the Greeks through Mr. Elliot. LORD CHELMSFORD: That is a di rect answer. shown, since its most peaceful revolution, unstained by crime, great moderation and great prudence in all its political relations. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, he did not desire to call for any detailed account of negotiations which, in the present state of affairs, the noble Earl thought he could not produce with due regard to the public service. He understood, from the reply of the noble Earl who had just sat down, that communications were not made by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the Greek Government regarding the candidature of the Prince of Denmark until he had ascertained that the King of Denmark had no objection to such a proceeding. EARL RUSSELL: I think what I stated was, that the King of Denmark consented; and that if Prince Christian and his son should consent, we had no objection. METROPOLITAN RAILWAY COMMUNICATION. LORD STRATHEDEN rose to inquire of Her Majesty's Government, What course is proposed to be taken with regard to the Ludgate Station and Junction Railways Bill? EARL GRANVILLE said, it was direct, and, he hoped, satisfactory to the noble Lords opposite. With regard to the Ionian Islands, he was surprised at the criticism which the course taken by Her Majesty's Government had excited. To him it appeared the most obvious course possible. And as to the distinction which had been drawn between giving up the Islands and giving up the fortress of Corfu, did his noble Friends opposite really believe that the great Powers of Europe would have sanctioned any arrangement by which Islands which did not belong to QUESTION. SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED. them would be given up, while they retained permanently for their own purposes the island and fortress of Corfu ? Ile felt sure that to such a proposal all the great European Powers would seriously and indignantly have objected. Notwithstanding what had been said about the facility of conducting the arrangements between the Prince of Denmark and his future subjects, he thought Her Majesty's Government, in leaving the details to be arranged by the parties themselves, had taken the most friendly, most prudent, and dignified course. He could not help thinking that the feeling which had been shown towards Her Majesty's Government by the Greeks throughout these negotiations, as well as the marks of personal respect exhibited towards Her Majesty's family, proved that the attitude of the Government was not for one moment mistaken in the peninsula. On the other hand, both Greeks and Ionians were sure to feel very acutely the tone of disparage ment which had been adopted by the only two noble Lords who had spoken on the opposite side of the House. He joined most sincerely in the wish, which had been expressed by his noble Friend, that Her Majesty's Government might ultimately have the credit of establishing the permaneut prosperity of a country which had VOL. CLXX. [THIRD SERIES.] EARL GRANVILLE said, that this was a matter to be dealt with not by the Government, but by the House. What he should suggest was, that all the Bills upon which Colonel Yolland had reported should be referred to the Select Committee which he had given notice to move; which should examine, not into the merits or demerits of any particular scheme or schemes, but should inquire, with the assistance of the Board of Trade, whether any particular plan would or would not affect or interfere with a comprehensive system of railway communication in the metropolis. It might be desirable subsequently to refer certain technical points to a Commission composed of professional persons; but he had no doubt that the Report of a Committee of their Lordships' House would be of great value, as settling the general principles which should regulate legislation on this subject. The noble Earl then moved, That a Select Committee be appointed, the Schemes now before Parliament for the Con"To inquire whether any, and, if any, which of struction of Lines of Railway within the Limits of the Metropolis, can be proceeded with in the Ha[Hb follows.] present Session without the Risk of interfering with the future Adoption of a comprehensive Plan of Metropolitan Railway Communication; and to consider what Provision can be made for the securing such a comprehensive System, with the greatest Advantage to the Public, and the least Inconvenience to the local Arrangements of the Metropolis. LORD REDESDALE said, that the terms of the inquiry, as proposed by the noble Earl, would lead to a much longer investigation than he anticipated. Was the noble Earl prepared to say that all the Bills he indicated were to be referred to a Select Committee, and that a hearing was to be given to the promoters? If so, he (Lord Redesdale) thought that the inquiry would run to a great length, and in the end would not be very satisfactory. In reference to the latter part of the noble Earl's proposition, he (Lord Redesdale) submitted that they wanted no investigation of the character referred to. Пle recommended the noble Earl not to refer those railway schemes in question to such a Committee, but to propose that the Committee should inquire generally into the subject of metropolitan railway communication. THE EARL OF DERBY concurred in opinion with the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees in thinking that this inquiry would not turn out so simple and easy a one as the noble Earl seemed to imagine. He (the Earl of Derby), under existing circumstances, ventured to request the removal of his name from the Members of the Committee proposed, inasmuch as he was not at all prepared to enter into such a lengthened examination as the inquiry moved by the noble Earl would necessarily involve. The appointment of a Committee upon the subject would take the wind out of the sails of a Commission, and therefore render the proceedings of the latter wholly unnecessary. He thought that the object sought for could be much better obtained by the appointment of a Commission in the first instance. Looking at the present state of the House, it would be idle to enter into a further discussion on the mat. ter. He would therefore leave the noble Earl to get out of the difficulty the best way he could. Motion agreed to; Select Committee appointed; and the Lords following were named of the Committee : The following Bills referred for the Consideration of the Committee :— Midland Railway (Extension to London) Bill; Barnes, Ilammersmith, and Kensington Railway Bill [..]; East London and Rotherhithe Railway Bill [H.L.]; Grand Surrey and Commercial Docks Railways Bill [HL.]; Hammersmith and City Railway Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan, Tottenham, and Hampstead Railway Bill [H.L.]; Rotherhithe Railway Bill [R.L.]; Victoria Station and Pimlico Railway Bill [H.L.]; Tottenham and Hampstead Junction Railway Bill [H.L.]; London, Chatham, and Dover Railway (No. 1.) Bill [..] London Railway (Victoria Section) Bill [H.L]; Ludgate Station and Junction Railways Bill H.L.]; London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (Extensions and Alterations, &c.) Bill. DOCKYARDS PROTECTION ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.] A Bill to authorize further Harbour Regulations for the Protection of Her Majesty's Ships, Dockyards, and Naval Stations-Was presented by The Duke of SOMERSET, and read 1a. (No. 66). House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday April 16, 1863. MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE-Thames Con- Committee-Office of Secretary at War Abolition Considered as amended- Oaths Relief in Crimi- LONDON AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.- CONSIDERATION. Order for Consideration read. MR. REMINGTON MILLS opposed the Bill, on the ground that the Company had broken faith with the public. He. |