for money. stant appeals were made to this country indeed, were anything but flourishing. It He had received a pamphlet was opposed on both sides of that House; not long ago, the title of which was, Good it did not give general satisfaction to EnNews from Ireland; but the good news glish constituencies; and he understood seemed to be, that if more money were sent, that even among many Roman Catholies there would be more converts. They did it did not meet with approval. Under not seem to rely on their own resources, such circumstances, he did not think it or the resources of the Irish Church, but could be long maintained; and when it to depend upon subscriptions from this fell, Parliament would have to meet the country. The religious census in 1834 difficulties of the question face to face. If showed that the proportionate percentages that Vote were disturbed, there would at to population in Ireland were-of the once be an unsettlement of existing arrangeEstablished Church 11, of Roman Catholics ments as regarded the ecclesiastical endow81, of Presbyterians 8, and of other denomi- ments in Ireland. It was better, therefore, nations about one-third. In 1861 the Es- to be prepared in good time for a change tablished Church had increased to 114; the which might soon come; and the best way, Roman Catholics had decreased to 78.owing in his opinion, in which to meet that change to the falling-off in population; the Pres- was by appointing the Committee which he byterians, who had no other temporalities proposed. The Government did not seem than the regium donum, had increased to inclined to take any steps in the matter, 9, and other denominations to 1 per cent, but he hoped that the Liberal party would thus showing that the less assistance that refuse to support the Government if the was given the better, and that voluntary latter did not endeavour in some way to efforts were more successful than a system carry out the principles by which they proof endowment based upon injustice. It fessed to be guided. The hon. Member for seemed to him that they could not maintain Poole (Mr. Danby Seymour) had given the Irish Church much longer in its present notice of an Amendment, which was very position, and they could not expect the long if not very intelligible; but it would Irish people to remain passive and quiet ad seem, if carried, to pledge the House to infinitum. All the leading statesmen of more than would be justified by the present both the great parties in that House, one state of their information. He believed, after another, with only some few excep- however, that the authority of Archdeacon tions, had expressed most strongly their Stopford was appealed to in support of the opinion on the absolute necessity of some views embodied in it. Archdeacon Stopchange, and he trusted that a sense of ford was no doubt a very well-informed right and justice would induce the adop- man; but the House probably would not tion of a remedy for a great and pressing take the question merely on his ipse dixit. evil. The Conservatives, unwilling as they He (Mr. Dillwyn) could hardly imagine were to concede anything, had conceded what could be the grounds of opposition to the necessity of some change in Ireland; his proposition. He had been told that and they had carried out what they thought that was not the time to bring forward the they ought to do. They passed the May- subject-that the Roman Catholics were nooth Grant, though it was opposed by unpopular in this country. But although some Gentlemen on that side of the House. it was true that Roman Catholics were not On the Liberal side of the House the ap. much favoured in this country, yet justice propriation principle was admitted in 1835, and fair play were highly approved; and if and they seemed disposed not to deal in a justice and fair play were denied to the narrow, petty spirit with the Irish question. Roman Catholics, it could not be expected But, unfortunately, they adopted those that they would be more well-disposed toprinciples when out of office; and when in wards the Government of this country. office, instead of carrying them, they con- The noble Lord at the head of the Governtented themselves with carrying small mea- ment, in a speech which he made in 1845 sures, which merely touched the distribution respecting the grant to Maynooth, said of the funds of the Church among its own thatmembers, and not among the whole people of Ireland, for the benefit of whom he conceived it to be the duty of Government to see them administered. The Maynooth Grant had had to struggle through an uncertain existence, and it could not be said to be a permanent settlement. Its prospects, "It is impossible, in my opinion, that the present state of things in Ireland, in regard to the two establishments of the two different sects in Ireland, can be permanent.. A provision by the State for the Catholic priesthood is a measure to which the Government and this House will at no distant period be compelled by their sense of justice to proceed. The great mistake made by Governments, not only in this country but everywhere, is to be too late in the measures which they adopt. . . . Government comes down with its measure, but comes when the time of proposing it with effect is gone by; and that concession which may be no doubt on the present occasion it is-the result of conviction, and the spontaneous offering of modified opinions and a sense of justice, wears to the public all the appearance of a surrender to fear."-[3 Hansard, lxxix. 1304.] SIR JOHN TRELAWNY seconded the Motion. a considerable extent. The only question was in what way it should be done. He, as a member of the United Church of England and Ireland, was anxious that its resources should be so modified as to increase its strength; and he was happy to say that the question was dealt with in a similar spirit of moderation by many Roman Catholics. Serjeant Shee, on bringing forHe (Mr. Dillwyn) would urge the Liberal ward the question ten years ago, said that party not to delay upon that great question. he fully admitted that the endowments He could not shut his eyes to what was pass-were first due to the members of the ing-that the noble Lord, upon important Church, and that until they were fully proquestions, was indebted to the party oppo- vided for its resources ought not to be disite for support, and that judging from the verted to any other object. At the same results of recent elections, the time might time, if any abuses could be shown to exist, soon come when parties might have to cross all true friends of the Church must wish the House. The Liberal party could not for their removal, as the very fact of their consistently attack their opponents when existence must prove a source of weakness in office, if they refused now to act upon and impair the efficiency and usefulness of their avowed principles. He asked for a the Establishment. The Irish clergy themCommittee-a fair and impartial Committee selves were alive to the necessity for some -to inquire and report with a view to the inquiry, and indeed there was among them introduction of a measure that might make a considerable party which called loudly the union of this country real, and Ireland for reform. Archdeacon Stopford, who itself contented and prosperous. The hon. was well known from the part which he had Gentleman concluded by moving for the taken in regard to this question, had written appointment of a Committee. a remarkable pamphlet, from which, as the hon. Gentleman had suggested, he had adopted the terms of his Amendment, and he did not think he could have borrowed them from a better source. He believed that his Motion would meet the necessities of the case, which was not the case with that either of the hon. Member for Swansea or the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Osborne), who had likewise an Amendment to propose. The object of Archdeacon Stopford's pamphlet was to show that there ought to be a re-distribution of the ecclesiastical revenues of Ireland; and it was a very good sign that the members of the MR. HENRY SEYMOUR said, that he Church should themselves come forward in rose to move the Amendment of which he that spirit. Such a movement was unhad given notice. His hon. Friend had precedented, and ought to receive the encommenced by saying he was very nearly couragement of Her Majesty's Government. bringing in a Bill to alter all the religious In his pamphlet the archdeacon pointed to endowments throughout Ireland; and it many livings which ought to be diminishwas only on second thoughts that he brought ed, while others ought to be augmented. forward this Motion for a Committee. He Among other cases he mentioned a vicarmentioned also that his Resolution was age extending over an area two miles long founded on a proposition formerly made by and wide, net income £115, 17 Protestants; Lord John Russell as to appropriation. Now, a rectory, net income, £115, 110 Protesone of the chief arguments which he (Mr. tants; a union, net income, £330, 24 ProH. Seymour) would have to address to the testants; a vicarage, four miles by two in House would be, that a settlement of the extent, net income, £165, 24 Protestants; Irish Church question was possible without a union, net income, £260, 27 Protesentering into the question of appropriation. tants; a union, net income, £280, 31 Both the friends and the opponents of the Protestants. All these benefices lay close Irish Church were of opinion that the ex- together, and the archdeacon recommended, isting state of things must be modified to that instead of being held by separate Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire how far the present distribution of endow ments for religious purposes throughout Ireland may be so amended as most to conduce to the welfare of all classes of Her Majesty's Irish subjects; to search the Journals of this House for any Resolutions passed since the Act of the 39 and 40 Geo. III., c. 67, having reference to the application of any surplus revenue arising from Ecclesiastical Endowments in Ireland; and to report how far such Resolution or Resolutions appear to have been subsequently carried into effect." The lieve the wants of the district. The noble incumbents, they should be united under stipendiary curates. The Motion of the hon. Member for Swansea assumed that the Committee would be able to ascertain the present position of endowments in Ireland, to show that there was a surplus, and to point out the manner in which it ought to be distributed. If the Committee ascertained all that he seemed to anticipate, it would have done no good, but only much mischief, because the real inquiry must comprehend a multiplicity of details, into which the Committee could not enter. It would only open up the questions which agitated the country thirty-one years ago, and which were abandoned by the very Government which raised them. Although the hon. Member for Swansea had proposed to deal with a surplus, he had obtained no Returns to prove that it existed, nor were there any such Returns. He granted that changes were required in the Irish Church; but even Roman Catholics admitted that the Protestant clergy should have a proper stipend to live upon. Reform was demanded upon good grounds, because there were some clergymen in Ireland who did no work at all, and others who did very little; while, on the other hand, there were clergymen in Ireland who did work, but without any pay. Such cases occurred in every diocese. By the 93rd section of the Church Temporalities Act, it was provided that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland should increase benefices up to £200 a year. How many had been so increased? Very few, in-sults; and if appointed at once, would be deed. In the diocese of Armagh, which was the best provided with clergy and where the clergy were best paid, he had a list of nineteen benefices with an income of only £1,717, or an average of £90 a year each. Yet some of these parishes had between 2,000 and 3,000 Protestant inhabitants. In one union in the west, which consisted of ten parishes, and was fifty miles long by thirty broad, there was an income of only £200. The number of Protestants had some years ago diminished to about 500, but a society had been formed to supply it with clergy, and the number of Protestants had increased again to about 5,000. There had formerly been only one church; but now there were ten, besides three licensed chapels. The Commissioners had only endowed two churches with £75 each, and endowed two others with £25. Very few benefices had received augmentations since 1836. An endowment society had been established in West Connaught, three years ago, to re able to report before the opening of next Session, so that the entire question of the Irish Church could be settled before that time next year. Another reason for a Royal Commission was that to the Queen belonged jurisdiction in ecelesiastical territorial matters. The second head of inquiry in the Motion of the hon. Member referred to searching the Journals of the House, the most important entry in which would be the Resolution moved by Lord Russell in 1835; but he should think that no Whig Government would wish to have that brought forward too prominently. A question was put to Lord John Russell in 1858, by Sir Robert Peel, and the noble Lord stated that the Government had done their best, and had introduced a Bill for the settlement of tithes on the appropriation principle. Since then, however, the appropriation principle had been altogether abandoned, and he should altogether deprecate a renewal of discussions leading to much animosity and bitterness. He had only been induced to take up the question from a belief that the original Motion would have a very bad effect, and because no one else had put an Amendment similar to his own upon the paper. He believed that the question of the Irish Church, treated on its own merits by both sides of the House in a political lull such as that which then existed, would not prove as difficult as it appeared at the outset. He was in hope that it might be dragged from the arena of party politics, and prevented from becoming, like the church rate controversy, an annually recurring source of ill-feeling at both sides of the House. If it were taken up by the Government, at the wish of a portion of the Irish Church, the disputed points might be settled in a period shorter than most persons imagined, and without that strife and animosity which were certain to ensue if a Royal Commission were not appointed. The hon. Member concluded by moving his Amendment. MR. NEWDEGATE seconded the Amendment. Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into 1. The territorial arrangement of existing Benefices, whether consisting of single parishes or unions of parishes, and upon impropriate parishes; as to their extent, contiguity of the parts, position of churches, and means of internal communication; and upon the provision of the cure of souls; and on the amount of population and number of Protestants in each Benefice: 2. On the erection of new parishes where required, by formation or dissolution of unions, or by divisions of parishes, or exchange of portions of parishes or unions, having regard to amount of ministerial work, and the circumstances of sur'rounding parishes: 3. On the districts which it might be desirable to serve provisionally by Stipendiary Curates: 4. On the incomes of Benefices in Ireland, and on parts of Benefices, so far as might be necessary fairly to adjust the incomes of parishes proposed to be erected: MR. WHITESIDE: I rise to oppose the Motion of the hon. Member for Swansea, and all the other Motions that stand upon the paper with reference to the Irish Church. It has been said that language sometimes is used to conceal men's thoughts; in the present instance I am quite satisfied that the language of the hon. Gentleman has been used to convey his thoughts. But it is justifiable for us who oppose his Motion to inquire what has been the policy of that school of politicians to which he belongs. The hon. Gentleman, having endeavoured to make a political reputation by nibbling at the Church of England, now aspires to establish a character by attacking in a bolder manner that branch of the same United Church which exists in Ireland. He has told us to-night when the subject of that Church was last discussed here. I remember it well. In the month of May 1856, a Gentleman, who once adorned the same benches, rose and gravely made a Motion which had the support of the hon. Member. Its mover said, in the usual way, that the circumstances of Ireland afforded a favourable opportunity for the settlement of the question, and he proposed, that as an Incumbered Estate Court existed in that country, it would be a wise thing to put the Church into that court and sell it by auction. That Motion might have been made by a revolutionary trooper in the time of Oliver Cromwell. That hon. Gentleman failed in his object, and he has since transferred his talents to a more congenial sphere; but though he soon vanished from our view, the mantle of his inspiration has descended upon the shoulders of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea. There are two classes of politicians in the world—the one with a construc tive, and the other with a destructive genius. When Mr. Miall had shown his destructive talents in selling off the Church in Ireland, it became necessary for him to construct a theory as to what was to become of the proceeds of her property. And what was his luminous idea on that subject? He thought those proceeds might safely be employed in the erection of lighthouses with infinite good humour-and I never and lunatic asylums. The noble Viscount, admired him more than on that occasionthought his hon. Friend had gone a little too far; he could not give his assent to the Motion; he had some lingering respect for the 5th Article of the Union; and in a very happy way he put an end to the debate on the Irish Church, which has not been disturbed from that hour until it has now been taken under the protection of eloquence, raillery, and wit; but I think the hon. Member opposite, who complains, the result of his attempt will resemble that and with perfect truth, that no other man which followed the efforts recently made in Parliament could be found to meddle against iron-clad forts by those American with the subject, and therefore he felt it ships which attacked in vain, were smiled his imperative duty to undertake its settle-upon by their opponents, and then battered ment himself. Public opinion he has, Sir, into submission. at his back; for it is enough to fill the Well, the hon. Gentleman who made this House with consternation to hear how ex- Motion indulged us with some general recited the people of Ireland have lately been flections before entering into particulars. on this question. Why, after a diligent And first he gave utterance to a deep and search made in the records of this House, I no doubt sincere lamentation on the condifind that during the last year there was not tion of the great Liberal party. In regard a single Petition on the subject of this to that, I can give him no consolation. Church, its property, or position, and that His arguments did affect me considerably; for some considerable time past there has and while I entirely concur with him in his been but one Petition from Ireland at all remark, that he was very little acquainted bearing on that Church-a Petition of either with his subject itself or with the which I will make a present to the hon. condition of Ireland, I admit that he apGentleman, for it was in favour of a convo peared to be very well acquainted with the cation. But if the hon. Gentleman should condition of the Liberal party. For he chance to fail in his Motion, as fail he will, said, Sir, that they had forgotten their the hon. Member for Poole comes to the principles and abandoned their measures, rescue. I thought that that hon. Member and never did man more conclusively prove had devoted his talents chiefly to the con- than he did the rashness of the vote he sideration of questions connected with the gave in order to bring that party into poliEast; that he had taken the right hon. tical power. But if they will only listen to Baronet the Secretary of State for India him on the present occasion-although I do under his surveillance, and meant to ex- not know whether they will hearken to the plain to the House what is doing by that voice of the charmer, charm he never so right hon. Baronet and his incomprehen- wisely-if they will but take up the old sible Council. I had imagined that the exploded appropriation clause, notwithaffairs of China might satisfy that hon. standing the warnings of the late Sir Gentleman, but these do not appear to Robert Peel-if they will only revive the content his vaulting ambition, for he sud- old Whig dodge of attacking the Church, denly descends upon the Church in Ire- then his affections may be recovered; and land, and recommends that constant de- he promises to the Ministry which might be vice of the Whigs, a Royal Commission. so misguided and so forgetful of their duty, Well, a Royal Commission is an excel- that the great Liberal party, whose dislent thing, and to excite the House to organization he so painfully depicted, and yield to this proposal I may say that I what he inadvertently called "the Irish have made another diligent search to dis- Members"— '—an expression to which I shall cover what is the sum which has been ex- presently recur-will return to their allepended of late years upon these Commis- giance. Speaking of the state of Ireland, sions which lead to nothing, and I found the hon. Member declared very truly that that it amounted to £823,171. That fact there had been in that country political I set against the able speech of the hon. rebellions, disorders, conspiracies, and asGentleman. But there is another Member sassinations. And his panacea for all these of this distinguished triumvirate in reserve. evils is to abolish the Christian Church We have, Sir, an ex-Secretary of the Ad.[" No, no!"'—to abolish, I say, a branch miralty-forgetful of all the delinquencies of of the Christian Church in that country. that Board since he quitted it-forgetful, That was his remedy. I am sure I do not too, of the nice questions on which he has misrepresent his arguments or his facts, spoken so ably, touching iron-cased ships, which I intend to follow fairly; although I fortifications, and the comparative merits of own that in doing so I feel like a heavythe Whitworth and Armstrong guns-sud-laden soldier marching across an arid denly rushing into the arena of controversy and taking the Church of Ireland under his protection. I am satisfied, from what we know of his abilities, that he will bring to bear on this subject all the force of his wilderness, in which fatigue, hunger, and intolerable thirst are far more to be dreaded than the arms of the enemy. He told the House, and truly, that there is a profound tranquillity on this subject in |