your interest to have a court martial, and we send you the proceedings before the court of inquiry." THE EARL OF DERBY: Where do they say it is not for his interest? EARL RUSSELL said, what they actually did was to send the proceedings before the court of inquiry for Lord Elphinstone to read in order to judge whether, having the evidence before him, he still thought it for his interest to be tried by a court martial. This put an end altogether to the charge that the gallant officer was condemned without having an opportunity of seeing, or cross-examining, the witnesses, for he might have had that opportunity had he chosen. But Lord Elphinstone deliberately, and perhaps very judiciously, having read these proceedings, said he would not ask for a court martial. The only conclusion that he (Earl Russell), under the circumstances, could draw, was, that Lord Elphinstone did not think it for his interest to proceed further with the case that he felt that the evidence would go against him, and that the sentence of a court martial would be more injurious to his reputation than the sentence of the court of inquiry. Had he gone before a court martial, he would, of course, have been able to cross-examine witnesses, and to bring forward evidence on his own side. He did not dispute the analogy between a grand jury and a court of inquiry; but he might remind their Lordships, that if, after the finding of the grand jury, a prisoner thought proper to defend himself, he pleaded not guilty, and was tried before the petty jury; but if, feeling that the evi dence before the grand jury was sufficient to convict, he preferred pleading guilty, no proceedings were taken before the petty jury. It seemed to him that there was something like pleading guilty in with drawing a request for a court martial after an adverse decision from a court of inquiry. LORD CHELMSFORD said, that the analogy drawn between courts of inquiry and grand juries was perfectly correct; but he would ask the noble Earl who had last spoken in what a position would a man be placed when brought to the bar to be tried, after having a true bill returned against him, if the Judge were to say to him, I have read over all these depositions, and I am clearly of opinion that the accusation is made out completely against you; but if you like, after this expression of my opinion, you may plead not guilty,' and take your trial? That was just the 66 position of Lord Elphinstone. When that noble Lord demanded a court martial, it was quite clear that the demand ought to have been immediately complied with; but, instead of that, the Board of Admiralty sent to the noble Lord the proceedings of the court of inquiry, the greater part of which took place in Lord Elphinstone's absence and without his having an opportunity of examining any witness, and asked for the noble Lord's observations with respect to them. Lord Elphinstone made his observations and forwarded them to the Admiralty, and then an answer was returned stating that the Lords of the Admiralty saw no cause for modifying their censure; but that if Lord Elphinstone, after receiving this expression of opinion, desired further investigation, the Lords of the Admiralty would order him to be tried by court martial. What must have been Lord Elphinstone's impression of the probable result of the proceeding, especially when it appeared that in one instance which had been mentioned in the House the Admiralty had thought proper not to adopt an acquittal pronounced by a court martial? He thought Lord Elphinstone was perfectly justified in saying, "A court martial can never restore me to my ship, nor remove their Lordship's censure, and I shall, therefore, not feel it necessary to apply for another trial." He thought that a very harsh course of conduct had been pursued towards an officer who appeared to be highly deserving, and he did not think that the noble Duke had given a satisfactory explanation when challenged to justify the proceedings of the Admiralty. LORD CRANWORTH said, that as regarded the general question, he was of opinion, that although personally perhaps Lord Elphinstone had no right to complain of the course pursued, the system was such that the sooner it was abandoned the better. It was idle to suppose, that after the decision against him in a court of inquiry, an officer could be fairly tried by another tribunal. The finding of a grand jury did not, in any way, prejudice the accused, because it was known to be come to upon ex parte evidence; but when a person had been allowed to make his defence and a judgment had been pronounced against him, it was impossible that his case could come to a fair investigation afterwards. Having expressed his disapprobation of the general system, he must say in justice to the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty that all Ireland show that other Letters than those contained in the Return to an Order of the House, March 3 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 109), passed between the Fishery Department and Mr. Michael Dobbyn, one of the Defendants in a late Fishery Prosecution, instituted at the instance of the Board, between 26th January, and February 1st,. 1863; and whether, in the event of there being such other Letters, there is any objection to lay them upon the table of the House? MR. PEEL said, so far as he knew, all the Letters which had passed between the Department and Mr. Dobbyn had been included in the Return. It did, however, appear, from a record kept by the Board, that a letter dated 30th January had been sent from the Commissioner (Mr. Barry), to Mr. Dobbyn. But that letter was private. At all events, it was sealed, and therefore its contents were not known to the Board of Works, and it could not be included in the Return. DESTITUTION IN IRELAND. MR. GREGORY said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether any Reports from the Poor Law Inspectors have reached him as to the state of destitution in the western districts of Galway and Mayo; if so, whether he will lay these Reports before the House; if not, if he will order the Inspectors to report as to the condition of those districts? SIR ROBERT PEEL, in reply to the question of his hon. Friend, begged to say that he was constantly in the habit of receiving Reports from the Poor Law Inspectors as to the condition of the different districts in Ireland. By reference to their last Report his hon. Friend would see what was the general state of Ireland in the estimation of the Poor Law Commissioners. The Government would have no objection to lay any of the recent Reports on the table of the House. BANDA AND KIRWEE BOOTY. MR. ANGERSTEIN said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Law Officers of the Crown have been consulted and have pronounced their opinion on the subject of the Banda and Kirwee Booty, and whether there is any objection to communicate their opinion to the House; whether it is the intention QUESTION. MR. PEACOCKE said, he wished to of the Government to recommend the dis- MR. ADAMS, THE AMERICAN MINISTER, tribution of the Prize Money according to the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown; and, if the preferential right of the actual Captors has been established, whether there is any other cause for delay in distributing this Prize Money? VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: We have not, Sir, yet been able to come to any decision with respect to this matter. Very lately I received a counter-statement from some of the parties concerned, and no answer could be given till that counter-statement, which was most adverse to the claims, had been duly considered. I may state in explanation, however, that the matter is not one that turns on any question of law. The decision rests entirely with the discretion of the Crown, and that discretion must be governed according to the principles of justice and equity as depending on, and governed by, the circumstances of the case. ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether information has been received at the Foreign Office with regard Crawford to Lord Russell on the subject of to a statement that was made by Mr. Mr. Adams having granted a Special Letter to a certain vessel which sailed from this country to carry supplies to Matamoras for the Mexican Government, to be used in their present war against France; and, if so, whether Mr. Adams has acknowledged the correctness of that statement; in which event, also to ask what course the Government intend to pursue with reference to Mr. Adams ? MR. LAYARD: I beg to reply that the matter is still under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government, and no communication has yet been made to Mr. Adams on the subject. MR ANGERSTEIN: Will the noble Lord name any day when it will be convenient to give an answer if I repeat the POLICE IN COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS. question? VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: It is very difficult to name any day on which it may be convenient, consistently with the attention demanded by other questions, to enter into this matter, which involves considerable detail. MR. ANGERSTEIN: The parties are very much interested. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Oh, of course; the parties on both sides are much interested. IRON-PLATED SHIPS. QUESTION. MR. LONGFIELD said, he rose to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, If the Iron Plate Committee have made any Report on the subject referred to them; if so, whether he has any objection to lay the same before this House? LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, in reply, that the Iron Plate Company had been in the habit of making very detailed Reports to the Admiralty of all the experiments that had taken place at Shoeburyness. If that information could be confined to Members of that House, there would be little objection to furnishing it; but the Government thought it extremely unadvisable and impolitic that the results of those experiments should be known to the world. QUESTION. MR. KEKEWICH said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the sum voted by Parliament for the Police Force in Counties and Boroughs is calculated on the net expenditure, after deducting the amount of the superannuation fund, rent, fines, and stoppages; and, if so, for what reason the Government objects to repay one-fourth of the whole amount expended for the pay and clothing? MR. PEEL said, in reply, that the contribution to which the Government was liable by Act of Parliament was limited not to exceed one-fourth of the cost of the pay and clothing of the Police Force, and by that they considered was meant the real pay and not anything which might be merely nominal pay. Where, therefore, they had found allowances for travelling expenses, or allowances for the rental of houses, had been converted into pay and made part of the pay, they had separated and set aside that portion in calculating the sum upon which their contribution was due. In the same way with regard to the deductions for the superannuation fund and for fines, as those were deductions made compulsorily, the Government did not think they would be justified under the Act in contributing towards them. PRISON MINISTERS BILL-[BILL 24.] SECOND READING. state this without reserve or concealment. What are the main facts with which we have to deal? The principal fact is, that Order for Second Reading read. there are to be found in the county and SIR GEORGE GREY: Sir, as a con- borough gaols of England and Wales a siderable time has elapsed since I obtained very large number of prisoners who are leave to introduce this Bill, and as many members of the Roman Catholic Church. hon. Members may probably now be in According to a Return made on the Mothe House who were not present on that tion of the noble Lord the Member for occasion, I think it right, without entering Arundel (Lord Edward Howard) at the beinto all the details I then laid before the ginuing of last year, there were no less House, that I should preface the Motion than between 3,000 and 4,000 Roman for the second reading by a brief reference Catholic prisoners in the county and boto the main facts on which the Bill is rough gaols of England and Wales, befounded, as well as to the provisions of the sides about 1,500 Roman Catholics in the Bill itself. I am the more anxious to do convict prisons of this country. I am this because I am well aware that very afraid, also, that from the increase of strong feelings of objection exist in many crime since then, the number is now larger. quarters to any alteration of the exist. Nor is that surprising. Considering the ing law as regards the religious instruction great facility of intercourse which of late of prisoners in county prisons in England has been created between Ireland and the and Scotland. Those are feelings which other portions of the United Kingdom, I cannot but respect, because I believe and bearing in mind the higher rate of rethem to be founded on religious con- muneration for manual labour obtained in viction, but they are feelings, I must this country, the result has been a large add, which appear to me to be utterly influx into England and Scotland of Irish mistaken and misapplied with reference labourers, nearly all of whom would be to the provisions of this Bill. I can- Roman Catholics. They form a considernot bring myself to understand that able portion of the population of our large this Bill raises any question that can be towns, and especially of that class which connected with the truth or error of any is devoted to manual and unskilled labour. church or form of religious belief. If that That is, to a certain extent the case in were the question at issue, I should agree London; and it is so to a greater extent with my hon. Friends who object to any in Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, alteration of the law in this respect, their Glasgow, and other centres of commerce objection being, I believe, founded on con- and manufacture. Considering the cirscientious attachment, which I fully share cumstances, the lives these people leadwith them, to the doctrines of the Protes- the ignorance too often, I fear, arising tant religion as professed by the great ma from inattention to their spiritual and mojority of the inhabitants of this country.ral interests-it is not surprising that the But I do not think this question enters at all into the consideration of the subject now before the House, nor does that subject involve the admission of any principle which can possibly be injurious to the maintenance of Protestant doctrine. The Bill, in fact, involves no new principle; it involves only the extension of a principle we have already sanctioned and recognised repeatedly, that extension being demanded by regard to our own consistency as well as by a sense of justice to a large portion of our fellow subjects-the Roman Catholics of this country. I formerly stated, that although the terms of the Bill, following the terms of the existing law, are general, and do not refer to any particular denomination of Christians, yet the application of its provisions will be chiefly, at all events, confined to Roman Catholics. I desire to nor labouring classes of the population furnish as a vast number of Irish Roman Catholics are come to what seems to me to be a defect to be found in the ranks of the army. in the law, for which a remedy should be The discipline of the army, the duties found. The law, with regard to county which it has to perform, and the stations prisons, is most specific, and therefore I where troops may be posted, make it im- shall refer to it. The law relating to the possible that a soldier can have the same borough prisons is, in the main, of the individual freedom as to attending the same character, but I need not refer to ministrations of his Church, or of receiv- the details. In all county prison it is very ing the private instruction of his priest, properly required that a chaplain of the as he had before enlistment. The con- Established Church should be appointed, nection between the priest and the soldier, who is paid in proportion to the number of a member of his congregation, is prisoners which the gaol is capable of resevered when he enters the army. What ceiving. Upon that chaplain, not by regudoes the State do? The State provides, lation, but by law, are imposed certain by commissioned Protestant chaplains, for duties. He is bound not merely to read the religious instruction of the great bulk the services of the Church, but to visit of the army. Presbyterian chaplains are every room and cell in which prisoners are attached to certain Scotch regiments, and confined, irrespective of their creed; and Roman Catholics are placed upon the same to him is committed the responsibility, or footing. By the Return presented last year the right, or the duty, whichever it may it appears that there are no less than be called, of prescribing the lessons which eighteen commissioned Roman Catholic are to be taught, and the books which are chaplains provided for by grants annually to be read by the prisoners for their moral voted by this House, for the religious in- and religious instruction. Roman Catholic struction of Roman Catholic soldiers, and prisoners equally with Protestants, subject they are exclusive of the provision which only to one modification, are committed is made for the religious instruction of to the exclusive care of the Protestant troops in Ireland, and in various sta- chaplain. There is a modification, I allow. tions abroad. But let us go a step fur- It is contained in what is called the ther. The soldier, when he enlists, finds "special request clause," by which, at the his religious wants provided for by the special request of any prisoner who is not State, and I am happy to say no objection a member of the Established Church, he is ever made to that particular Vote in the may, under such regulations as are consistWar Estimates. But what is the case if ent with the rules of the prison, be visited he commits an offence which results in a by a minister of his own church. Let the sentence of imprisonment? If he commits House bear in mind, that although the a military offence, he is tried by court mar- request be made and complied with, it tial; and if there be a military prison in the in no degree modifies the obligation cast district which is not full, he is sent there by law upon the Protestant chaplain to to undergo his punishment. In these visit every room and cell in the prison, and prisons, if within reach of a commissioned to prescribe the lessons and books to be chaplain, it is part of the duty of such used by all the prisoners. In one case chaplain to give his attendance in them; only is that law relaxed, and that is in rebut when the prison is too remote from gard to persons under sentence of death. a commissioned chaplain, then special In those cases, out of regard, I presume, provision is made for the services of a local to the highest interests of persons standing priest to minister to the spiritual necessi- on the verge of eternity, it is provided, ties of the prisoner. But supposing there that where the person so condemned is not is no military prison near, or that it is full, a member of the Established Church, at his then the Roman Catholic soldier is sent to special request he may be attended by a undergo his sentence in the borough or minister of his own faith, to whose exclucounty gaol. Or let us take the more sive care he shall be left. I think the common case, that the offence committed contrast between what is done for a Roman is against the ordinary law of the coun- Catholic soldier in a military prison with try; the offender is given up to the civil what occurs to him in a civil gaol shows power, and, after conviction, is sent to the that the law is defective. Circumstances civil prison. What is the consequence of have changed since the law was made. this, which may be the result of the mere Owing to causes to which I have referred, accident of there being no military pri- the Roman Catholic population in the son near, or its being full? Here we country has largely increased, not, in |