and the Crown Lands would always be arranged upon the basis upon which they stood at present, it must be a matter of indifference whether the money was advanced from the revenue of the country or from the revenue of the lands, provided that in every case a fair interest was paid and a fair return obtained for the outlay. Ile had accounted for £59,000 out of the £75,000, leaving £16,000 as the actual cost of management; and as that was only 4 per cent on the amount of rents received, he could discover no proof of exGentleman had referred to the circumstance that these expenses were not voted by Parliament; but it was provided by the Act that the cost of management, including all improvements, should be a first charge on the gross revenue, and he had only to say that after full discussion and a division the House decided in 1851 against the expenditure being made part of the annual Votes. It was quite true that the Committee on Public Accounts had pointed out the advantage of these expenses being placed on the annual Estimates, but they only made the recommendation provided that no objection whatever was offered to the change; and the Treasury, by their Minute, had dissented from that view, and advised the postponement of any alteration.

was intended that the Crown Lands should | much as he imagined that the Civil List be administered as a department of revenue, and it was not unnatural that observations should be made upon the expenditure out of the revenue before it passed into the Exchequer. It appeared from the last Report of the Commissioners that the expenditure, whatever the amount, was, at all events, not increasing. Upon an average of three years, ending March 1855, the gross receipts were £384,000, and the sum paid into the Exchequer was £261,000. Upon an average of the last three years, ending in 1862, the gross receipts were £414,000, and the sum paid into the Extravagance or bad management. The hon. chequer was £290.000. The increase, therefore, in the amount paid into the Exchequer was equal to the increase in the gross receipts. The total expenditure was about £125,000, and might be divided into three parts-first, the expenditure on Windsor Park; second, the expenditure on the Woods and Forests; and third, the expenditure upon Crown Lands under lease. The sum expended on Windsor Park was about £20,000 a year, and the sum received was £6.000. It ought to be borne in mind that Windsor Park was maintained for the enjoyment of the Sovereign, just as the London parks were maintained for the enjoyment of the public, and that no reduction could be made in that item. The Woods and Forests produced £40,000, and the expenditure was £30,000. The annual revenue of the Crown Lands under As to the Woods and Forests, the hon. lease was £370.000, and the annual ex- Gentleman was under some misapprehension penditure was £75.000. To the nature of with regard to the nature of the Crown inthat expenditure he wished to call attention. terests. The whole extent of forest lands No less than £24,000 of that expenditure was about 100,000 acres, but only oneconsisted in payment of taxes, ancient sti- fifth of these belonged exclusively to the pends charged by former sovereigns, and Crown; with respect to the remainder, it charges attached to the lands before they was subject to rights of common. At the were acquired by the Crown. The next beginning of the century there was alarm item of £35,000 was the amount expended lest the supply of timber for the navy in the improvement of the property. What should fall short, and Acts were passed by had been done in Hainbault Forest was a which power was given to the Crown to very good illustration. When first dis-enclose a portion of the forest lands and forested some years ago, it was let at plant timber upon the enclosed portions. a rent of £2,839 a year. In building About 30,000 acres out of the 80,000 had farm-houses and cottages and in drainage been so planted, making altogether about £29,000 had been expended, and the te- 50,000 acres which were planted with grownants paid as interest £1,548 a year more, ing timber. The subject of the forests was which brought the rent to £4.388 a year. inquired into by a Committee as late as What had happened in that case happened in 1854, and the Committee reported that every case. The outlay bore interest, and they were satisfied with the manner in the occupier paid the amount in addition to which it was being managed; and there his rent. It was said, that if these lands be- was no doubt that the forests were of great longed to private owners, they would make value, and that they increa-ed in value no outlay from income, but would borrow every year by about £60,000. The anmoney for the improvements; but inas-nual revenue which was derived from the

MR. CAIRD said, that having, some years ago, called the attention of the House to the management of the Royal forests, he was bound to say that he be

forests arose from the necessary thinning of lieved that this property was as well mathe wood, and amounted to about £40,000, naged now as it was likely to be after any being £10,000 more than the annual ex-inquiry which the hon. Gentleman wished penditure. There could be no question to make. It should be recollected, that if whatever that these forests would ulti-this expenditure was incurred without the mately be of very great value, and it would previous sanction of Parliament, a very be a most unwise proceeding to cut down full account was rendered to Parliament of the timber before it had arrived at matu- the manner in which the money had been rity. He need not say much about the ex- expended. The accounts were rendered pense of the Central Office of Woods, be- year by year, and so clear was their arcause that subject was investigated in the rangement that anybody who examined year 1859 by a Committee of the Trea- them carefully could make himself master sury, which made a very full Report on the of them. He therefore trusted the House nature and constitution of the office, and would not adopt the Motion. observed, in conclusion, that they had much satisfaction in reporting their opinion that this branch of the public service was in a very efficient state, adding that the value of the Crown Lands had been greatly im-lieved that the discussion which then took proved, and that the arrears of rent were place had had a beneficial result. The but trifling when compared with the large Report made by Mr. Gore in 1862, showamounts which were received. He believed ed that a great improvement had taken that the only arrears were rents which had place in the management of the Crown esbeen owing for a great number of years, tates, the value of which had, by judicious principally quit rents in Ireland, which had outlay and judicious investment of money, not been collected for 120 years, and were been considerably increased. Even now, now perfectly irrecoverable. The annual however, large sums were expended in the cost of the office was about £26,000, of remuneration of law agents for the mawhich £9,000 was for the legal Depart-nagement of property which he should himment; but of this latter sum a consider self like to see administered by Mr. Gore able portion was repaid by persons in himself, or some of the officers of his Dewhose favour leases and conveyances were partment. During eleven years, the renexecuted. It was not necessary for him to tal of the Crown lands had increased from go into the question so far as related to the £329,000 to £414,000, or about 22 per Office of Works, because his right hon. cent. Only 10 per cent of that increase Friend the First Commissioner of Works had yet found its way into the public exwould be ready to give any information on chequer, the remainder being absorbed by that subject which the hon. Gentleman the large outlay upon improvements. This might desire. A proposal for an inquiry result was a good illustration of the effect was undoubtedly a very specious thing, but which free trade had had in improving the he thought an inquiry into these Depart value of land. He did not know any exments ought not to be instituted unless it ample more clearly proving the increase of could be shown that the present system rental, not from mere outlay and improvewas working badly, or that some better ments, but from the great advance which system could be adopted. He ventured to had taken place in the value of land, resay that the hon. Gentleman had not been sulting from the greater demand that had able to make out either of these cases, and arisen for it since the repeal of the Corn he trusted the House would not give any Laws. As to the Royal forests, he sugencouragement to the notion which was gested a few years ago, when the House rather implied in the hon. Gentleman's discussed the question of the camp at AlMotion than expressed in his speech-dershot, that instead of purchasing land namely, that it was desirable to re-unite the Departments of Woods and Works. They were united for twenty years, and their union was attended with many evils -such, for example, as that of one Department making use of part of the reve nue of the other for the purpose of carrying out public works to a greater extent than Parliament had sanctioned. He be

such as Aldershot, they should appropriate part of the unproductive land in the Royal forests to the purposes of a camp, for which some portions of them were very well adapted, whereby the value of the surrounding land would be increased.

Question put, and negatived.

METROPOLITAN AND CITY OF LONDON

POLICE AMALGAMATION.-LEAVE.

vided authority, such as that existing in likely to result from the existence of a dithe case of the City and Metropolitan Police, was not of an imaginary character, but one which, when brought to the test by circumstances, was proved to be based upon a solid foundation. Before I allude more particularly to the opinions of those Commissions and Committees on the subject, however, I wish to state that the course which I am now about to take is one

That being so, Her

as the evidence which was taken before
them, I could not deny the practical incon-
venience of that divided authority against
the continuance of which the Motion was
directed, as exemplified in the occurrences
of the 7th of March.
Majesty's Government think the proper
course, and that most consistent with their
duty, was not to wait for the passing of
an abstract Resolution on the subject, but
rather to submit to the House a practical
proposal in the shape of a Bill, with the
view of remedying the inconvenience in
question.

SIR GEORGE GREY rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the Amalgamation of the City of London Police with the Metropolitan Police, and said: Sir, the proposal which I have to make to the House is by no means a new one. The question to which it relates has been carefully considered and reported on by Commissions appointed by the Crown, as well as by Com-upon the expediency of adopting which the mittees nominated by this House at, differ- Government decided, after weighing all ent times and under different circumstances. the circumstances of the case, without A remarkable unanimity of opinion has, I waiting to be guided by the opinion of may add, been apparent in the conclusions the House as it might be elicited on the at which those Commissions and Commit- Motion with reference to the amalgamation tees have arrived, and that unanimity is, I of the City and Metropolitan Police of believe, pre-eminently due to the fact to which the hon. and gallant Member for which they have all adverted, to the fact Westminster (Sir De Lacy Evans) had which it is desirable we should, in dealing given notice. Had that Motion been made with the question, bear in mind-that an in the terms announced, it would have been essential difference exists between the Cor-impossible for me to dissent from it-beporation of the City of London and other cause, having read the Reports of the sevemunicipal corporations in respect of the area ral Commissions and Committees, as well within which their respective jurisdictions are exercised. Before, however, I advert further to that fact, or to the observations which have been made upon it by the Commissions and Committees to which I have alluded, I wish to say that the proposal which I am now about to submit to the House is not founded mainly or exclusively on the events which took place on the 7th of March last. The Bill, to the introduction of which I am about to ask the House to accede, is not, in short, a penal measure directed against the City of London on account of any mismanagement which might be attributable to them in connection with The difference between the Corporation the proceedings of that day. The events of London and every other, in respect of of the 7th of March at the same time, no the area over which its authority extends, doubt, show great mismanagement, or was pointed out very clearly by a Commisrather great want of order and manage sion composed of men of great eminence, ment on the part of the City authorities, and who were not likely to disregard popuand a very inadequate appreciation, of lar rights, which was appointed in 1853, the emergency likely to arise, notwith- and which made its Report in 1854. standing the warning given by the crowds before I make any quotations from the Rewho collected to witness the preparations port of that Commission, I think it due to previous to the 7th. These events also that Corporation to state that the Commisshowed over-coufidence on the part of the sioners expressed it to be their opinion, that City authorities in their own means for the City of London was favourably dispreserving order unaided by extraneous tinguished from other corporations before assistance. The occurrences of the 7th they were reformed by the Municipal Corof March, indeed, tend, I think, con-porations Act, inasmuch as the defect of clusively to show that the opinions formed by the Commissions and Committees to which I have already referred were well founded, and that the theory which they laid down as to the inconvenience VOL. CLXX. [THIRD SERIES.]

But

power being vested exclusively in a few without responsibility to the many did not seem to them to exist in the City of London to the same extent, and that the Corporation of Loudon was superior to other

R

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corporations by the predominance of the the same time, the boundaries are in some popular element. The Commissioners, parts difficult to be defined. It is situate however, go on to say, that although the in the midst of an immense aggregation of ancient constitution of the Corporation of houses and streets towns they might London had secured to the inhabitants a almost be called-and its limits are stafair representation of their interests, that tionary, while theirs go on rapidly inrepresentation was confided to persons creasing. Prior to the introduction of dwelling within the area of the City proper, the Metropolitan Police Act by the late and did not extend to the population of the Sir Robert Peel in 1829, a Committee larger part of London. They add, that the was appointed to inquire into the state of limits of that area were fixed at a very crime in the metropolis, and the means early period, and that there was no record existing for its prevention and detecof their having been enlarged so as to keep tion. That Committee took a great deal pace with the growth of the metropolis. of evidence, and suggested a scheme, Now, other great towns seem to have been which was embodied in the Bill of the folsimilarly circumstanced before the passing lowing year. The object of that measure of the Municipal Corporations Act; but was the abolition of the separate jurisdicthere is a provision of that Act by which tions of the parishes and the union of the their corporate jurisdiction was made co- metropolis under one police management. extensive with the real dimensions of those Sir Robert Peel had to deal with a state towns. In London, however, no such of things in which each parish provided its change took place. The area now is the own nightly watch, and it followed that same as it was, and the population is di- in one parish the force might be efficient minishing. It appears by the Returns and in another the reverse. Sir Robert which were laid before the Corporations Peel pointed out, that according to the Commission in 1854 that the population boundaries, one side of a street might be of London proper was then 129,125. well watched, while the other side, in a difThe last Census shows that it has di- ferent parish, was hardly watched at all; minished to 112,063; while the popula- and he showed conclusively that where a tion of the surrounding district the great variety of jurisdictions existed, they Metropolitan Police District-is no less were not conducive to the public interest than 3,110,654. The area in square or to the security of life and property. The miles of the City is a mile and a half same objections were made to his proposals or a mile and three-quarters; in the then that we have now to encounter-that surrounding Metropolitan Police District they would interfere with local governthe area is 700 square miles. We have ment, disturb existing rights and privitherefore these facts to deal with. We leges, and abolish long established usages have a very small portion of this vast me- and authority. Parliament met those tropolis with a jurisdiction separate in police objections then in the same spirit which matters, and acting independently of the I hope it will show on the present ocauthority exercised in the surrounding dis casion, and legislated for the general betricts. In that respect the case of the nefit of the metropolis. The limits of the City of London differs essentially from City were not included in the limits of that every other existing corporation, and none Bill, but this immunity was not owing to of these can dread that the principle of the any supposed inviolability conferred by present measure will be applied to them, ancient charter of privilege. It so hapbecause it is impossible that the reasons pened that the question was put to Sir urged in favour of the proposals we have Robert Peel in the course of the discussion now to make can by possibility be urged on the Bill, and the simple reason which with regard to them. The Corporation of he gave was that the Committee which sat the City was once, in fact, the corporation the year before reported that the night of the metropolis; but the metropolis has watch in London was far superior to that of long outgrown the limits of the City. The Westminster. He further stated that he municipality is still entitled to respect, wished to make the measure to a certain from its great historical associations, from extent experimental, by including in it only the privileges which it has long enjoyed, a limited number of parishes at first, leavand the charters of which it is in posses- ing the remainder to be added to the police sion; but between the Corporation of the limits about to be established, as experi City of London and the remainder of the ence showed the benefits arising from the metropolis there is no connection, and, at new system, which he confidently anticipat