raising the property-tax, there are about 218 clauses; and the right hon. Gentleman thinks it convenient for me to state, in answer to his question, what is the general purport of those clauses. Consistently with my public duty, I do not feel I could give an answer to the right hon. Gentleman without entering into explanations which cannot be properly made in replying to a single question, or a series of questions. The House, I am sure, must feel, that it is extremely difficult for any one who labours under the responsibility of proposing a great measure to Parliament, and upon which it is of the utmost importance that the intentions of the Government should be kept perfectly secret as regards its operation on the com cise, for the collection of the tax which he proposes. A question was put to the right hon. Baronet, for the purpose of eliciting this information; but there was an evident wish not to press him to make further disclosures on that occasion. I do think, however, that this is a point on which the public have a fair right to be heard, and with that view I venture to put a question to the right hon. Baronet, for the purpose of remedying the omission in the announcement which he has already made. I do not wish the right hon. gentleman to go through all the small details of his arrangement; what I wish to hear from him is, some information as to what forms the essence of the tax now before Parliament, because I apprehend that, in all taxes, an essential subject of considera-mercial and manufacturing interests, to tion is the mode in which they are levied; disclose the principal provisions of his and the question, whether a tax is good or scheme in an imperfect shape before Parbad, is, whether it takes money out of the liament. The records of whole proceedpockets of the subject in a convenient or ings of the old property-tax commissioners inconvenient manner. I wish, therefore, were destroyed by a vote of this House. to ascertain what is the machinery which Almost all the officers employed under it the right hon. Gentleman intends to in- have ceased to exist. I do not deny the troduce; what are the powers he intends importance of the matter to which the to give to the officers employed under this right hon. Gentleman's question applies, system; whether those officers are to be and I think the machinery under the procommissioners; what is the mode of in- posed tax a question of grave consideravestigation (for that is one of the main tion. But it is the first privilege, as I points) to which the party who is obliged hold it, of a Chancellor of the Exchequer to pay the tax will be compelled to sub- to have an opportunity of explaining in mit, and what is the mode of compulsion detail the provisions of an all-important proposed to be exercised towards any measure of this nature. It is perfectly person who refuses. I do not wish to open to the right hon. Gentleman to dedetain the House, but I was desirous bate this question on Friday; but I do merely to state what my view was in ask-not think it fitting that I should explain, ing this question. I do trust that the information I have sought will be afforded, more especially after the announcement you, Sir, have made from the Chair, that after the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman is once before the House, our doors will be shut to any petition or remonstrance that may come from the country as to this tax. in answer to a mere question, what are the general provisions of a bill so complicated as one for levying a tax of this nature must be. I must, therefore, beg leave to decline answering the question of the right hon. Gentleman. Viscount Howick said, that as the right. hon. Baronet objected to state, in answer to a question, the nature of the machinery Sir R. Peel: Sir, the right hon. Gen-he proposed to adopt, he wished to know tleman has put to me seven questions, to whether the right hon. Baronet would take which he requires an answer. As I stated some mode of giving the required exto the House, I shall bring forward a planation before the House was called on measure embracing the general principles to discuss the measure; because it appeared which I have already disclosed, and on to him that the propriety of granting or rewhich the present Government proposes to fusing the tax turned to a considerable found a bill for the purpose of supplying extent on the nature of the machinery to the enormous deficiency which has been be employed for its collection. It was a occasioned by the disproportion which has little too hard that they should be exbeen suffered to accrue between the re-pected, after hearing for the first time on venue and expenditure. In the bill for Friday next what the machinery was, to were to have, and so forth ?-Conversation at an end. ANGLO-PORTUGUESE LEGION.] Captain Layard begged to ask the right hon. Baronet whether the British and Portu give a vote, in a few hours afterwards, which, if once given in favour of the proposition, so far committed the House that no further petitions on the subject could be received. He, therefore, wished to know whether the right hon. Baronet would object to take some mode of ex-guese Commission had effected any settleplaining the nature of the machinery he proposed to employ, so as to allow some interval of time to elapse before the House was called on to vote upon the proposition? Sir R. Peel said, that the noble Viscount and every hon. Gentleman would have the fullest opportunity, during the progress of the bill, of discussing the matter if the machinery should appear to them unsatisfactory, or so unsatisfactory as to constitute a fatal objection to the measure. Acceding to the preliminary resolution would not bind the noble Viscount to support every part of the bill. He was sure the House would not expect, in reference to a bill which might contain about 218 clauses, any Member should be bound to all the details. He would at the earliest period, whenever there was an opportunity of entering into an explanation (but not in answer to a question), state to the House the general principle on which he proposed the machinery should be constructed. He would do so when he had an opportunity of replying to the comments that might be made by various hon. Gentle men, but not when he was limited to a mere answer to a question. Mr. F. T. Baring said, that as the right hon. Baronet had alluded to a bill with 218 clauses, he wished to explain that all he asked for was the principles of his proposed machinery. Mr. Pitt, when he announced the income-tax, thought it his duty on that occasion to explain the principle and mode of levying it. He certainly did not think he had asked an improper question. Sir R. Peel apprehended, that Mr. Pitt made his explanations in the committee on the bill, and not in answer to questions. The right hon. Gentleman would be at perfect liberty to ask for details on Friday next; but how was it possible for him to enter into explanations of the sort required, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's seven questions, as to who were to be the commissioners, what powers they were to exercise, what officers of excise or other department were to collect the tax, what powers each ment of the claims of the Portuguese Auxiliary Legion, and whether any division had been made of the funds allotted to that purpose? He regretted to say, that most of the men who had engaged in the expedition were at the present time in utter destitution, and that many of the officers were suffering extreme privation. Sir R. Peel assured the hon. and gal. lant Officer that he sincerely sympathised in the misfortunes of those concerned in the Portuguese expedition. The commissioners had already adjudicated on many of those claims, and he hoped that before long the rest would be settled. With respect to the question put by the hon. and gallant Officer as to the division of the money, he (Sir R. Peel) was unable to afford an answer. The recent disturbances in Portugal had interposed some obstacle in the way of a settlement of the claims referred to, but he hoped that before long they would be completely adjusted. SALFORD GAOL-MR. BAGSHAWE.] Lord F. Egerton inquired, whether the Secretary for the Home Department had made an inquiry, or whether with or without inquiry, he had received information on the subject of certain charges made against the chaplain of Salford Gaol, Mr. Bagshawe. Sir J. Graham said, that he had received from the chaplain of Salford Gaol a letter contradicting in the most positive terms the charge that he had on more than one occasion preached sermons offensive to the feelings of the Roman Catholic prisoners. He thought the hon. Gentleman opposite must have made his statement under some misapprehension. Mr. T. Duncombe said, that as he regarded the question put by the noble Lord opposite, with reference to the case of the rev. Mr. Bagshawe, as put against himself, he would trouble the House with a short explanation of the facts on which his statement was made. No one would wound the feelings of another with more regret than himself, and if he found that he had unintentionally done so, he 599 "Manchester, March 10, 1842. should always be ready to offer an apology, have been to see a couple of convicts to-day, and any reparation in his power. But the first time I have been called since my apbefore he considered it due to make this pointment, which is exactly five months today. One of these convicts, Elizabeth Irwin, apology and reparation, he thought it was twenty-seven years of age, under sentence of but right to find whether or not it really transportation for stealing from the person, was due. He must be satisfied that he tells me that she has asked for me above had misrepresented before he made an twenty times; allow for exaggeration, and it apology for misrepresentation. His hon. may be she has asked several times; and Mr. Friend the Member for Kendal had told Bagshawe, she says, told her he had forgot,' but that he would see that she had an interhim the other day, that a correspondence view with the priest before she left prison to was going on upon the subject of the go to her punishment. This woman, I undercharges which he had preferred against stand, has been in the New Bailey these last Mr. Bagshawe; and in consequence of four months. I asked if Mr. Bradshawe was this he had made further inquiries, and in the habit of preaching controversial serhe would read to the House the result of mons? I received the same answer from all those inquiries. In the first place, he who have ever heard him-namely, that the would read a letter from the rev. Mr. beginning, middle, and end of his discourses are controversy, always attacking the Catholic Macartney, a Roman Catholic clergyman, religion. Again, I am now attending a sick person, her name is Isabella Pratt; she tells who was licensed by the Bishop of Lancashire to attend gaols, and give spiritual me, that having been in the New Bailey about advice to the members of the Roman three months ago she heard Mr. Bagshawe preaching against the doctrine of the real preCatholic communion within his diocese:sence, one of the most sacred articles of the Catholic belief; she says that the Catholics were so excited by his discourse, that one Irishman, after the service was over, got up and contradicted Mr. Bagshawe; two turnkeys collared the man immediately, and a report was spread through their side of the prison that the man was put on bread and water for a week, but she says this was only a report, she cannot swear to this, but can as to his speaking. She says also that it was reported that he was locked up in solitary confinement. The next Sunday she says Mr. Bagshawe commenced on the same subject as soon as he got into the pulpit. The man got up again and interrupted him. Mr. Bagshawe ordered him to be taken out, and he had to be brought round in the same gallery behind where the females sat: as the man was passing the door, which was open, he saw Mr. Bagshawe, and he shouted out to him, 'You ruffian, you ought to be dragged out of the pulpit,' and 'you'll know yet that Jesus Christ is whole and entire in the sacrament.' No one, of course, can approve of such conduct; and I merely quote the language to show what the irritation must have been to the feelings, before a prisoner could have so far forgotten himself, knowing that he would be liable to severe punishment for so doing. This woman is ready to come forward and state this on oath. I asked Elizabeth Irwin in the prison this morning if such a thing had taken place; she told me it had. Now, these witnesses do not know each other; nor does one know that I asked the other. They, I dare say, will en deavour to invalidate the evidence of persons who had lost their character, by having been inmates of the prison, but when it is considered that numbers of prisoners unknown to each other, with years sometimes between their evidence, all attest the same thing, "My dear Sir,-I am quite delighted that they have thought proper to deny your statements, as it gives us an opportunity to prove them, and to bring the matter more fully before the public. We are really very much indebted to them. If called on to do so, I am ready to depose on oath, that about a month ago, having called upon the gaoler about procuring some copies of the prison rules, one of which I sent to you, the gaoler, amongst other things told me, in answer to a remark I made, that we had not been called on for the last two or three years to see any of the healthy prisoners.' The gaoler said, that the healthy prisoners, if ever they asked for us, it was only to assist them in getting up their defence. To prove this assertion, he said, 'A person wanted you the other day, and I was sure he only wanted you to assist him with his defence.' I asked him how he knew that? He replied, that he took the chaplain with him, and I understood him to say they both interrogated him, and, being satisfied that he only wanted to see me to assist him in his defence, of course he (the gaoler) did not think proper to send for me. When my memorial, which is in your hands, was presented to the visiting justice, the gaoler was called to know if any prisoners had asked to see a Catholic clergyman, and had been refused? He (the gaoler) told the visiting-justices what had occurred a few days before, and which I have just stated above, about this man asking for a Catholic clergyman, and having been refused, as they (the chaplain and gaoler) thought he wanted one only to assist him with his defence. All this I have from the gaoler himself; this is the instance alluded to; I am ready to make oath to the correctness of the above statement. I · namely, this man's harsh, tyrannical conduct, and his great antipathy to everything Catholic, I think there cannot be a doubt on any unbiassed mind as to the fact of the sermon which made the Papists as mad as blazes.' The man who made the request was one Smith, belonging to the 17th Lancers, and the request was made by him to Mr. Roberts, and not to a turnkey, as the papers have it. Mr. Roberts is dreadfully afraid of losing his situation, and so if you can do without mentioning their names it would be much better. I believe he is writing now, but he is terrified. You may make what use you please of my name, and also of Isabella Pratt's; but all the statements which have been given to you that 1 am cognizant of you may have on oath. I wish, Sir, you were on the spot for twenty-four hours, that you might hear and see for your self. "I remain, &c., A. MACARTNEY,' 96, King-street, Salford. رو Hear my prayer, O Lord, &c. He spoke of the inutility of prayer in an unknown tongue. Many say pater noster, and don't know what it means; some repeat so many prayers on Monday, so many on Tuesday, and so on. All this is formal, vain repetition, and will not be answered. [Here the chaplain paused, and said, I shall not proceed until you cease whispering. I will sit down, and afterwards finish my sermon; or I will open the Bible, and read two or three chapters.'] On Sunday, January 26, 1840, in the course of his sermon he told them that a man had stated to him what he had heard another man say, who was a member of another church, "That if he had the power, he would destroy every heretic with the blast of his mouth.' day. Service, female side of prison. Struck “Tuesday, March 17, 1840.—St. Patrick's twelve o'clock immediately after it commenced. Should be dismissing the prisoners at that "T. S. Duncombe, Esq. time. The chaplain read the 3rd chapter of "P. S.-Can no security be given for the the Gospel according to St. John, and comwitnesses not suffering for giving evidence in mented, but afterwards struck off to inveigh this case? I refer particularly to Roberts, &c." against the Roman Catholic, one-third of his He had also written to Mr. Roberts, female officers were stationed close to the pri congregation being of that persuasion. Two the master of the Salford Union work-soners, within the altar, the prisoners immehouse, and who formerly held the situa-diately surrounding it in a semicircle. This tion of schoolmaster of Salford gaol. The following was Mr. Roberts's letter « Union Workhouse, Salford, March 10, 1842. "Sir, Your letter of the 9th inst. I have received, and beg to say that I am prepared to verify, on oath, that a prisoner, named Thomas Smith, did request of myself to ask "The parson to preach that sermon over again, stating it was a capital good one, that there were many by Catholics in his ward, and that it made them as mad as blazes.' My answer to him was, that I had no need that I should ask him anything of the kind, as he would hear similar sermons preached again. The prisoner was a misdemeanant, committed to four months' imprisonment in February, 1839. Patrick Farrell, in the month of January, 1840, solicited to see the priest, and objected to go to chapel. He stated to me himself that his request was not granted. He was on the sick list, but not in the infirmary. The turnkey stated, also, that he wished to see the priest, and that he would compel him to attend the chapel, or lock him up. I have seen prisoners taken to be locked up for refusing or objecting to attend the chapel, and the chaplain conversed with each of them previous to their being locked up, and in one instance was anxious to compel the man to attend, lest his example should be followed by the rest of the Catholics. I pleaded with the chaplain that the man might be allowed to be confined, as he preferred it rather than be present at the chapel. As to the controversial sermons, allow me to make an entry or two from my journal. February 2nd, 1840.-Sunday. Text 143d Psalm, first two verses, was the first time officers were stationed in that place. They sat opposite to each other, other's back, and could detect the least whisper and one could see the prisoners behind the or irregularity. He spoke of the Jews considering the Romanists and Greek church as idolatrous-of the worship of images-of relics-and that others had a right to consider them idolatrous as well as the Jews. He spoke of Nero persecuting the early Christians, and of a portion of the Christian Church afterwards imitating the heathen, and persecuting the true church during the dark ages. He alluded to a Pope commanding a monarch to do penance for three days of a monarch holding the stirrups of a Pope-of the debaucheries of Popes, and named the son of one Pope as being a murderer. Said that the Romanists had burnt the ministers of God, and had burnt his word. Would do so now, but thanks be to God, too many copies of the Scriptures were disseminated. Spoke of Luther, Huss, and of several historical matters in church history. It was twenty-five minutes past twelve o'clock when he concluded. The dinners of the poor prisoners were quite cold on the trays in the yard, waiting since twelve o'clock. This was St. Patrick's day, a treat for the Irish females. The most perfect order and silence were preserved by all the prisoners throughout the lecture.' Sir, I could multiply these notices of sermons on controversial points. I am astonished that the chaplain should deny a fact which is so notorious. I remain, Sir, your very obedient servant, The evidence he had read came from persons of undoubted respectability, and it | lain of blame; and the governor who fully corroborated what he had alleged. was by his duty compelled to be present Under these circumstances, he considered at the sermons which were preached, and that no apology was due to Mr. Bag- who was a dissenter, averred that the rev. shawe, but instead thereof, he thought that gentleman had never made sermons of a much was due to the unfortunate persons controversial character. This was the whose misfortunes he had communicated resolution of the magistrates :— to the House. He trusted the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) would grant him the committee he asked for; and if he had a committee, and it was fairly constituted, he was satisfied that evidence could be produced sufficient to satisfy an impartial mind that a thorough reform of Salford gaol was needed, and also that the present chaplain ought to be discharged. Mr. O'Connell said, that he had on former occasions abstained from mentioning names, but he would then observe that the Rev. Mr. Macartney was as respectable a man as any among the Roman Catholic body. He should give notice that after Easter he would bring the case of Roman Catholic prisoners confined in gaols within the united kingdom before the House. "Resolved, that after diligent inquiry, it is the opinion of the visiting justices that the charges against the chaplain are unjust, and they consider the rev. gentleman has always displayed a most benevolent spirit; and also, that they can find no instances in which the application of a Roman Catholic prisoner to munion had not been acceded to.” receive the visits of a minister of his own com He had produced this document to show that if there was a statement on one side, there was a counter-statement on the other; though he was unacquainted with the rev. gentleman himself, yet he had understood from one of the visiting jus tices that he bore a most irreproachable character. Subject at an end. PERCUSSION MUSKETS.] Lord A. Lennor begged to ask his hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Chippenham, (Captain Boldero), whether it was the intention of the Ordnance Department to issue muskets with percussion locks to the 6,000 troops who were about to be sent the intention of the same department to issue the same species of muskets to the dépôts which were to form the new batta lions for the colonies. Captain Boldero said, that the Ordnance would be able to furnish the troops with effective and efficient percussion arms. With respect to the second question, he had to state that when the battalions were formed, it would be necessary to furnish them with the same description of arms, and it would be done. Lord F. Egerton merely wished to state to the House, that the Gentleman respecting whom this discussion had been raised had thought it his duty, through him, to deny the matters of fact charged. There were three charges respectively made against the chaplain. First, with reference to the permission given to Roman Catholic priests to attend prisoners, the chap-out to India? And also, whether it was lain declared, that it was not the part of the chaplain to admit, or to exclude, or to send for any Roman Catholic clergymen ; but, at the same time, he stated the case of two men who had committed to the gaol for burglary, who appeared not desirous to see their priest as a minister of religion, which would have been authorised according to rule; that so far was the chaplain from preventing the admission of such clergyman, that he told the prisoners if they wished to communicate with him, they would be allowed to do so. He was informed there was no answer. He had to add, on the part of the chaplain, that these charges had come before him merely from what had accidentally passed in that House, and that he was otherwise totally unaware that such complaints were to be made against him. He would further beg to state, that there had been a unanimous resolution come to by the visiting magistrates of the gaol-a body of gentlemen of various political and Lord Eliot said that her Majesty's Goreligious opinions-acquitting the chap-vernment did intend to move a vote for the DUBLIN ROYAL SOCIETY.]-Mr. Redington wished to know whether the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had given directions for the payment of a sum of 2,000l. to the Dublin Royal Society, and whether it was proposed to take this money out of the civil contingencies; also, whether the Government approved of this course being taken without the certainty of the House sanctioning it? |