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The Queen's Advocate.-It is page 43 I think of the other Motion for Rule book. for New Trial.

Mr. Attorney General." While the machinery was being pre"pared" (he identifies it as the machinery intended for No. 2,209, which was the number of the "Alexandra,") "were you frequently at work in your business of a carpenter in the erect"ing shop?-Sometimes. Is that the shop where the machinery " is prepared and fitted for the vessel ?—Yes. While you were "there did you ever see a gentleman of the name of Hamilton? "Yes. I have seen him there. Did you see him there fre"quently or seldom ?—I have seen him there pretty often. When " he was there did you see whether he paid attention, or did not pay attention to the machinery ?-I could not say that he did "particularly to any branch of it, I could not see that he did to "that branch of the machinery more than to another." Then the same witness at page 48 of my book is asked this, "Have you

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"seen from time to time Mr. Hamilton with Mr. Sillem in the shop."

The Queen's Advocate.—It is at page 45 of the larger book, the

top of the page.

the

Mr. Attorney General-He had been speaking just before of guns and gun carriages which were mentioned to your Lordships. "Have you seen from time to time Mr. Hamilton with "Mr. Sillem in the shop?-Yes. I mean at this time when the machinery and the guns were in preparation?—Yes.

Have

you at any time or times heard Mr. Sillem speak of altera"tions?"-Mr. Sillem, I think I told your Lordships, is a partner in the firm of Fawcett, Preston, and Company. Have you at 66 any time or times heard Mr. Sillem speak of alterations either "in the screws of the gun carriages or other matters connected "with the guns in Mr. Hamilton's presence?-1 have heard him "make the remark that he could make improvements in the compressor screws. You have heard Mr. Sillem say that to "Mr. Hamilton?-Yes. That he could make improvements in "the compressor screws? That he had done so. What did "Mr. Hamilton say upon that?-He thought it was a great improvement upon the old original one. He said that?—Yes. "Lord Chief Baron.-In the lock? No, the compressor " screws." Then there is the evidence of Hodgson at page 55, he was also in Messrs. Fawcett, Preston, and Company's service; it begins at the bottom of page 54 in my book; he is the packer. "Do you know a person of the name of Hamilton?-Yes. Did you ever see him there?-Yes.

The Queen's Advocate.- It is at the bottom of page 51 of the other book.

Mr. Attorney General.-" Whom was he with ?-Sometimes " alone, and sometimes with Mr. Sillem, and sometimes with Mr. "Mann," (Mr. Mann is another member of Messrs. Fawcett and Company's firm)" but he was more often with Mr. Mann." We asked what he came about, and Sir Hugh Cairns interrupted by saying "That is not the proper question; what did he say or do?"

Motion for Rule Then I asked, "Do you recollect anything he said in their prefor New Trial. «sence in the packing room?-No. Do you remember anything

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"he ever did in their presence ?-No, except examining the shot
" and shell. Did he talk to them about it?-Mr. Sillem and
"Mr. Hamilton were talking about it, I could not understand
" what they said. Have you ever seen Mr. Hamilton at Miller's
"yard?—I met him coming along the yard. Do you recollect
"anything Mr. Sillem ever said to Mr. Hamilton? When he
spoke to him what did he call him?-I never heard him say
anything. Do you recollect anything being said about the
"clench rings that were being made for this ship, did Mr.
"Hamilton speak to any of the partners or to Mr. Speers?" The
answer is," Mr. Hamilton has been down to Fawcett, Preston,
"and Company's premises, and as soon as he has gone away there
"has been an order to get these things ready." Sir Hugh Cairns
says, "Listen to the question; did you ever hear Mr. Hamilton
"say anything to the partners on the subject of the clenches ?-
"No.
The Solicitor General.-Were any orders given after
"Mr. Hamilton came to the yard concerning these clenches ?—
"Yes.
The Lord Chief Baron.-By whom? The Solicitor
"General.-By any one of the partners?—Yes, to get these up to
"the boat; they were in a very great hurry for these clenches
"and bolts at that time. Do you recollect when these orders
"were given? Sir Hugh Cairns.-Was this by Sillem or by
"whom? the manager. Mr. Speers?-Yes. The Solicitor Gene-
"ral. Do you recollect in what terms the orders were given?—
"To see for bolts and clenches and take what was ready to the
"yard at once. Were those orders given immediately after a
"visit from Hamilton ?-Yes, on one or two occasions. As soon
"as he had gone ?-Yes. Did you take the clenches and bolts
"yourself? Yes, I did. In consequence of that order ?—I sup-
pose so.
So that we have seen him with Captain Bulloch
twice a week in the yard looking at the ship. He is seen in the
yard by this witness, he comes and looks at the machinery as well
as the guns and the shot and the shell, and then he talks to the
partner in the presence of the witness; he does not hear what is
said, and then immediately after his going, more than once orders
are given in a great hurry to take to the ship some of these arti-
cles necessary for fitting them out.

At page 59 there is one other passage in the evidence of this Mr. Hodgson. He identifies by their number all the machinery, clenches, and bolts made for the "Alexandra " by the number 2,209. "Did you ever see Mr. Hamilton inspecting that machinery while it was being made?"

The Queen's Advocate.-That is at page 56.

Mr. Attorney General.-"Did you ever see Mr. Hamilton inspecting that machinery while it was being made?—Yes, I have "seen him inspecting it." Then Robinson is examined at page 43.

The Queen's Advocate.—That is at page 40 in the large book.
Mr. Attorney General.-Robinson was a joiner, and he was in

Fawcett and Company's shop making the gun carriages. He is Motion for Rule asked, "While you were so employed did Mr. Hamilton come to for New Trial. "the premises?-I have seen him at times, several gentlemen. "I was just asking at present about Mr. Hamilton; did he come "in company with anybody else, will you tell me?—I have seen "a gentleman called Mr. Hamilton. Did he come there while "you were making these gun carriages? Yes. Did he inspect "the making of the gun carriages?—Merely looking at them." That just confirms it and goes to the same point.

My Lords, I now come to the evidence of a person named Da Costa; perhaps, before I read it I may mention a circumstance slight in itself, but assisting in the connection of these facts, namely, that the witness Hodgson at page 60 speaks of very frequent communication at this time by notes and letters between the two firms of Fawcett, Preston, and Co. and Fraser, Trenholm, and Company.

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The Queen's Advocate.-It is at page 56 of the larger book. Mr. Attorney General.—His evidence is this, "At that time were you sent to carry letters?—Yes. To what firms?-To "firms all over Liverpool. Among others did you carry any from "Fawcett and Co. to a firm named Fraser, Trenholm, and Co. ? "-Several. Was the communication frequent between those "two firms?—Yes. And you often had to carry those letters?— "Yes, very often."

I now come to the evidence of Da Costa, and first of all, I will give your Lordships what Da Costa states as to the interference in his presence of Welsman, a partner in the firm of Fraser, Trenholm, and Company, and Captain Tessier with regard to the ship. They are single acts, but acts which could only be referred to an interest which they had in her, or a control and authority which they had over her. The first is at page 94 of my copy. The Queen's Advocate.—It is at page 91 of ours.

Mr. Attorney General.-This gentleman, Mr. Da Costa, is a partner in a steam tug and a shipping agent. My learned friends represented him by a less complimentary word; they called him a crimp, but I may say that I never saw a better witness in the box. He appeared to me to be a very straightforward, honest, and consistent witness, and was not shaken the least in the world by crossexamination on any point. It is easy to call a man names. He seems to be perfectly respectable, and the firm of Miller and Sons had been building for the company in which he was concerned a ship or tug called the " Emperor," which was launched and had a trial trip; and that is what brought him into communication with them and about their yard. He says this at page 94 of my book. The Queen's Advocate.-It is at page 90 of the other book. Mr. Attorney General. He is asked, " Do you know Mr. Welsman and Captain Tessier ?—I know Captain Tessier quite well, "Mr. Welsman only slightly. Do you know him by sight, Mr. Welsman, I mean?-Yes. Did you ever see Mr. Welsman in "Mr. Miller's yard during the time when the Alexandra' was "building?—I did. Lord Chief Buron.-Did you see Captain

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Motion for Rule" Tessier" (there was some observation which intercepted the for New Trial. answer). "Is Mr. Welsman a member of the firm of Fraser, Trenholm, and Company?-He is. They are merchants at Liverpool, I believe? Yes. Did you see him there more than once? Yes. Did he do anything when he was there?—I saw "him giving orders for one of the men to work at this boat. "That is the Alexandra' you mean? Yes. Did you see him "doing that more than once ?-The order, that was only once. "Did you see him doing anything else besides giving orders?— "He was always inspecting round about. Always inspecting, do you say? When I saw him." That is very clear and direct evidence, except there be anything to discredit it, of the interference of Welsman by giving orders as a person having an interest. Then the witness is asked, "Do you know Captain Tessier, "I think you said you did?-Quite well. Have you seen them "during the time the 'Alexandra' was being built?-Yes. More "than once?—Yes. Have you seen him there frequently ?-"Yes. Have you heard him give any orders respecting the gun "boat?" (this witness had throughout called the 'Alexandra' the gun boat)." I did not hear him give any orders. Have you "seen him do anything?-He was always about her superintending." Then I pass over one or two questions. At page 103, I think, he speaks of a particular act done by Captain Tessier. There is a discussion. He is asked as to something which was said by Captain Tessier to Mr. Miller the elder, who was the undoubted owner of the works. There was a little discussion about the evidence which I pass over. The Lord Chief Baron held that he must admit the evidence, and then the question at page 103 is "Tell us what he said with reference to the construction of the 66 'Alexandra.' This was to Mr. Miller. "He wanted" (that is Tessier wanted) "the combings of the hatch higher. That is "what he said?—Yes."

The Queen's Advocate.-It is at page 98 of the larger book, my Lord.

Mr. Attorney General.-" Did he say how much higher he "wanted them ?-Three inches, I think it was. Of what hatch? "The main hatch. Did Mr. Miller, senior, make any "answer?-He did. What did he say?-He said he would not "do it; it was according to contract." That meant, as I understand, that what was done was according to contract. So that Captain Tessier was constantly there inspecting like these other people. Then he expressed his wish that a particular change should be made, to which Mr. Miller objected, that what had been done was according to the contract.

Now the same witness, Da Costa, gave evidence as to the more direct statement made to him by Miller, while the ship was in his possession and in progress, as to the intent and the purpose. There was a long discussion about the admission of that evidence, it was eventually admitted upon consideration and was before the jury. At pages 92 to 94 of my book there is that part of the evidence. He is asked at the top of page 92, "Do you remember

a

short time before the Emperor' was launched having a con- Motion for Rule "versation with Mr. Miller, senior?-Yes." The "Emperor" was for New Trial. the ship or tug which Mr. Miller was building at that time for the company of which this witness was a partner. "When was "the Emperor' launched?-On the 8th day of January 1863. "You say you remember having a conversation with him, and "now I ask you what that conversation was? Sir Hugh Cairns. "Do not answer. My Lord, that would be a question to which we object, and your Lordship perhaps will be good enough to "take a note of it. The Queen's Advocate.-Perhaps I had "better put it. Had he a conversation with you about the "Alexandra '?-Several times. Now, then, I will ask you "further. You had a conversation about the Alexandra '?— "Yes. Did he in the course of that conversation say anything "to you as to what the Alexandra' was intended for?-On "three different occasions."--Sir Hugh Cairns objects to the question and the Queen's Advocate says, "Now answer my "question. Did he in the course of that conversation tell you "what she was intended for?-He did. What did he say ?-He "told me she was a gunboat for the Southern Confederacy."

The Queen's Advocate. -This is at pages 87 and 88 of the larger book.

6

Mr. Attorney General.-"Did he say anything to you at that "time about a contract for the Alexandra'?-He did, my Lord, "must I give you the exact words that passed? Lord Chief Baron. "-Give us the best of your recollection of what passed. The "Queen's Advocate.-The question is, Did he say anything to "C you then about a contract for the Alexandra'? He said "We' (that is Millers) 'conjointly with Messrs. Fawcett, Pres"ton, and Company, are building this vessel for Messrs. Fraser, "Trenholm, and Company.' Did he say for whom?—They "were the agents for the Southern Confederacy." Mr. Miller had a conversation with this witness on three different occasions. as to what the " Alexandra" was intended for. "He told me that "she was a gunboat for the Southern Confederacy." "He said, "We conjointly with Messrs. Fawcett, Preston, and Company, are

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building this vessel for Messrs. Fraser, Trenholm, and Com66 6 pany.' "Did he say for whom?--They were the agents for "the Southern Confederacy. Sir Hugh Cairns.-Did he say "that?-Those are the words he said. The Queen's Advocate."What did he say?-They were the agents; in the conversation " which took place, he several times said so. In the conversation "that took place he said several times that they were the agents "for whom?-For the Southern Confederacy. Had you any "other conversations with him about the Alexandra,' and for "whom she was intended?—Yes, certainly. What did he say at "those other times ?-It was the same sort of thing. Lord Chief Baron.-It was to the same effect ?—Yes."

Then a little later he speaks of a conversation at another time, at the bottom of page 93, about certain blocks to lay the keel of a gunboat early in the time of the construction of this ship, when

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