is not evidence against me, unless it is addressed to myself.

Solicitor-General: Now after you were admitted into this room, in the presence of Mr. O'Brien, tell the jury what there occurred?-Mr. O'Brien was sitting at the head of the table with a book in his hand in which the clubs of Dublin were registered.

Whiteside: Well, now I object. Solicitor-General: Did he say anything from that book?-He called out the name of the club, and the representative of that club answered, and Mr. O'Brien asked what was the number in the club-that is, the numerical strength of it.

Now, was the number of the Red Hand Club called-was your club called ?-Not that night.

Do you remember what further occurred there between the representative and Mr. O'Brien ?-Mr. O'Brien then said, was it organized-that is, was it divided into sections, or sub-sections, and was there an officer at the head of each section. BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: Were those the questions he asked ?—(No answer.)

MOORE, J.: Was that the question he asked? Yes, it was, my lord. Not less than three or four hours, three hours at the very least, were occupied in these inquiries. There were various members of the Council of the Confederation present. Mr. Doheney was not there; Mr. Meagher was not there. This meeting was to make arrangements for a meeting next day, at four o'clock, near Kilmainhamat Mr. Ennis's yard.

How did that appear; who said that? -I believe it was a Mr. Troughton who introduced that place as a fit place. It was a meeting convened for the purpose of making an arrangement for the next day's meeting, in order that he might be satisfied as to the numerical strength of the clubs, as a difference of opinion existed; some said there were five thousand, some ten thousand, and some three thousand in these armed clubs.

MOORE, J.: Was all that said in Mr. O'Brien's hearing ?-Yes, my lord. Solicitor-General: Was it in consequence of that difference of statement that there was to be a meeting the next day at Ennis's yard, near Kilmainham ?-I will not say that; at all events, he was desirous of seeing them as to their goodly appearance.

Do you recollect Mr. O'Brien saying anything as to the situation of Ennis's yard for the purpose ?-He asked were the walls high, and if there were sufficient gates on it, in order to prevent any person going in except a clubbist.

Now, you have mentioned that Mr. O'Brien said something about the clubs

being organized; do you recollect whether he made any other observation with respect to the object of that organization ?—Not at the time, he did not; but it was to effect the independence of the country.

Whiteside: That is manifestly his own statement, not what Mr. O'Brien said.

Solicitor-General: Did Mr. O'Brien use those words, "to effect the independence of the country," at any other time ?-Yes, at another time that evening.

Did you go to that meeting at Ennis's yard the next day ?-It did not take place. Did you hear Mr. O'Brien say anything as to the manner in which they should proceed from their clubs, or proceed towards Ennis's?-They were to go in sections of five.

Did he assign any reason for that arrangement?-In order to prevent them coming in contact with the authorities:

Do you know why that meeting did not take place?-Why, it happened on account of the authorities getting some know. ledge

Whiteside: How does he know that? Solicitor-General: Was the ground preoccupied ?--It was pre-occupied by the police.

Now, do you recollect while Mr. O'Brien was at the head of the table, hearing him say anything as to where he had been himself, and what he had been doing?-Why, he gave an encouraging account of a kind of tour he had been making of the clubs. He said that at Cork he marched at the head of the clubs and that he saw their organization; and they were as fine a body as any in her Majesty's service.

Was there anything said about the state of their arms, or anything of that kind ?-There was a general conversation as to the state of their arms.

DOHERTY, C.J.: Was that conversation sufficiently loud for the person who then sat at the head of the table to hear what was uttered?-Sufficiently loud, and Mr. O'Brien replied to questions on the subject. MOORE, J.: Questions about arms ?—Yes, my lord.

Witness: Troughton gave an account of a tour he had made through England organizing; that there were two clubs in England, and that there were 500 men ready to come over at the first notice.

Ready to come over when do you say? -When the insurrection should break out.

Do you remember him saying any thing else about arms of any particular description ?-He said that they had two swivels also ready to come over.

MOORE, J.: Was it said so that those sitting round the table could hear?Every person in the room could hear it.

Solicitor-General: Do you remember,

then, with reference to those swivels which you have spoken of, Mr. O'Brien making any observation ?-Troughton stated that the great difficulty lay in getting them over. Mr. O'Brien made a statement, like a reply to his statement, that he had been in Bantry, where he was met by a boat's crew who gave him a hearty cheer, and who would have the country roused in a short time to meet him, on coming into the town-a boat going across giving a facility for a gathering of the people, so that there were about five thousand people and clubbists ready to meet him; and he said that all the clubs in Dublin should have a boat which would answer that and other purposes.

Did Mr. O'Brien say anything further with reference to the clubs ?-Why, he spoke for a considerable time of the organization necessary to effect the object they had in view. He considered at that time that the organization was not perfect, at least he had not inspected Ireland to have proof positive. He said that he would prefer ascending the gallows rather than that one should lose his life on his account by a premature step.

Prisoner: Just repeat that again. Why, at the time Troughton asked him as to the date of the insurrection, and Mr. O'Brien was speaking, he said that he would prefer ascending the gallows rather than that any one should lose their lives on his account by a premature step.

:

MOORE, J. Let me understand you. Did Troughton ask what was to be the date of the insurrection ?-That was a general conversation.

Solicitor-General: Not Troughton particularly, my lord. (To the witness) All took a part in the conversation as to the state of the arms, and as to when an insurrection was to take place ?-They were talking of that.

DOHERTY, C.J.: Do you mean it was discussed as to the particular time when there should be a movement ?-Discussed; they were talking each

I want to know if Mr. O'Brien said, that he was prepared to ascend the gallows rather than one should lose his life by a premature movement, and whether this was stated when they had a conversation through each other at the time of meeting.

Whiteside: The phrase was, "on his account."

Witness: Am I at perfect liberty to correct my statement ?

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: To be sure, just state it over again ?—It is now clear from the way it was put to me, I do not recollect perfectly. It was mentioned also as to the rescue, and all unanimously cried out in case of the conviction

Of whom?-Of the persons who were in gaol.

What did they cry out about the persons in gaol?-In case they should be convicted, they all, every one, said that they would rescue them.

Now, upon that occasion, when those persons spoke of a rescue, do you remember Mr. O'Brien saying any thing in particular?-His reply in reference to the time and the rescue, was for both cases; it answered both cases.

Whiteside: Just state what he said?— In case of a conviction, that he would ascend the scaffold rather than one should lose his life on his account.

[The witness also spoke to attending a mid-day meeting on the 19th of July of the representatives of the clubs, and part of the council of the Confederation.]

Did you attend there as the representative of any club ?-I attended there as the representative of the Red Hand Club. Mr. O'Brien was there; it was a very crowded meeting. The meeting was for the purpose of defeating the Lord Lieutenant's proclamation as to the Arms Bill. Mr. Brennan proposed a written resolution to say that the insurrection should take place at once, and he urged that the people would not be better off at harvest. He said that the people would be dispirited, and the Government would take up all the arms they could. Mr. Dillon, I believe, moved an amendment to that resolution that the people should conceal their arms, and give passive resistance to the procla mation. Mr. O'Brien said that a break out at this time would be premature. Mr. M'Gee made a speech also, and wanted the whole of the members present to cast lots, who would advise the people that night, in the Music Hall, to resist the proclamation. Mr. Richard O'Gorman, jun., told Mr. Dillon that resolution about passive resistance was too vague; and wanted Mr. Dillon to define it to the people present, the representatives. Mr. Dillon's amendment was put twice to the vote. It appeared that when they wanted to ascertain which had the majority, it could not be clearly ascertained, so each divided, and a regulacount took place.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: What was the result of the division?-There was a very small majority, and the minority were greatly dissatisfied.

Solicitor-General: Majority in favour of what?-In favour of Dillon's amendment. Mr. Brennan in urging the resolu tion also said, that they were always waiting until American and French aid came.

What did he say ?-He was enforcing

this that I have just stated, that the people were well armed, and that they would not be in a better position than they were at present; that they would be dispirited, and their arms taken from them; but, says he, "you will halt between two opinions-you will halt till American and French aid comes, and till rifles are forged in heaven, and angels draw the trigger."

Then, as I understand, Brennan was not for waiting for any other assistance ?— He said they had the elements of strength in themselves.

MOORE, J.: Was it after the amendment was carried that he made that observation ?-Before it, my lord. Mr. Darcy M'Gee said to the members of the council who were there: "You have been encouraging the people to arm and to organize: now is the time for you to desire them to resist. Let us cast lots, to see which it will fall on to-night, to desire the people to resist the proclamation"; and he would be one of them to draw.

He

Where was that notice to be given to the people?-At the meeting which was to be held that evening at the Music Hall. I have seen members of the Curran Club with arms, muskets, and pikes. I know Lawrence Hanlon, a member of the Red Hand Club. I saw him preparing arms, filing, and cleaning them. is what you would call a handy man-a carpenter, and general jobber, and workman. He bought the materials, for instance, the barrel, the stock, and the lock, in various places, and put them all together. He would make for the clubbists for thirteen shillings and sixpence. Thir. teen shillings and sixpence provided materials, at a reduced rate, from a party who gave them all those things at a reduced rate, that the people might be armed.

[The witness also spoke to a meeting at D'Olier Street in the evening of Friday the 21st July, at which Mr. O'Brien was not present.

Now Mr. O'Brien was not at that meeting ?-He was not.

Was it in the same room, in the same house ?-The same room.

The same body ?-The same body. Do you remember who was in the chair ? -Mr. Dillon was voted to the chair.

Whiteside I object. This meeting was not the result of any adjournment carried or made at any meeting where Mr. O'Brien was. The fact that a man attends one meeting, or may be liable for what other persons say at that meeting, furnishes no ground whatever, why he is to be visited with what may take place at a meeting where he is not. The very transaction

sworn to by the witness as having taken place at the last meeting

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: Put an end to this question. You stated that that meeting was of the same body. Was it for the same, or similar purposes?-It had been mentioned in that body that an executive council should be formed; and that this evening was to be set apart for it.

Whiteside: Now, was that stated on the 19th P-It was.

Solicitor-General: Do you recollect who originated it, or spoke to it? Why, both Mr. O'Gorman was speaking to it; Mr. Dillon was speaking; M'Gee was speaking; and that other fellow, Brennan. It was settled at that meeting?—It was settled and arranged

If it was settled in the presence of Mr. O'Brien you may state it P-It was settled by the meeting that the clubs were to be there on important business.

Whiteside: If a man was present there, and a vote was carried not to resist the proclamation, and then a person present said that they would meet for important business on Wednesday night, or the next night, or two nights after, there is no authority showing, from a person's absence at that meeting, that he is to be affected by what took place there.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: We are all clearly of opinion that this evidence is admissible. Fitzgerald: At this meeting of the 19th certain resolutions were proposed and seconded, and certain decisions come to with respect to them. Now, upon the vague evidence that it was settled at the meeting, certain persons speaking together, that a meeting was to be held on the 21st for certain important purposes, your lordships are about to admit this evidence, as I understand, on the ground that a body at the meeting of the 19th had fixed the 21st for certain important purposes. That would not warrant, in the first instance, the admission of such evidence. In the next place, the mere fact of the meeting being held for important purposes could not bind Mr. O'Brien, unless Mr. O'Brien attended, for important purposes not stated.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: It strikes us, as we before stated, that, first of all, Mr. O'Brien was in the room, and was apprized of the intended meeting on Friday; but, secondly, there appears to be evidence to make him a member of that same body which met on Friday.

council until those gentlemen would leave the room.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: To proceed to the election of what ?-Of an Executive Council.

Solicitor-General: Well, now, did they proceed with the election of this council? -Mr. Dillon called out the clubs, and the representatives answered, and as they answered they passed into a room adjoining, and in that room they remained until all the others left it.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: After the sitting was resumed what took place ?-They proceeded to elect this Executive Council by ballot; some wanted seven to form it, some five, and some three.

Solicitor-General: Had there ever been such a council before in the clubs that you knew of?-Never.

MOORE, J.: Was the term "Executive Council" made use of?-Yes.

Solicitor-General: Are you able to say how many the council consisted of?-It was carried that the council should be formed of five.

Whiteside: Were these resolutions taken down in a book?—No, they were not taken down.

Solicitor-General: Now, what proceeding then took place ?-Each representative then took a slip of paper, and he wrote the names of the different persons he wished to be elected on that paper. We all-they all unanimously wanted to elect Mr. O'Brien; and Mr. Dillon objected that Mr. O'Brien could do more good organizing in the country than if confined to the council-room.

Are you able to state from your recollection, how many ballots there were; how many deputies from the clubs attended-or representatives, rather ?—I think there were twenty-nine, with Mr. Dillon-twenty-nine or thirty-I counted them. I voted. Two scrutineers were appointed. One of them took the names and threw them into a hat; the two scrutineers removed the hat and the papers into the adjoining room. They returned and declared the result of the ballot. The scrutineers announced Mr. Dillon, Mr. Meagher, Mr. O'Gorman, jun., Mr. M'Gee, and there was an equality of votes for Devin Reilly and Lalor; and a new election took place. Devin Reilly was successful. Whiteside: Were these names all taken down in writing ?-They were all taken down in writing.

Are these names in the possession of the Attorney-General ?

Attorney-General: Here they are (handing some papers to Whiteside).

Whiteside: Yes. I did not know, while you were giving parol evidence, that you had all the time written resolutions.

Attorney-General: Not at all; these are the balloting papers.

Solicitor-General: After this Executive Council was elected, was there any thing said?-Mr. Lalor and Mr. M'Dermott proposed that each of the members returned, or elected, should make a pledge or declaration that they would incite the people to an insurrection before the 8th of August. That the prisoners were then in gaol, and that they should be liberated. Mr. Meagher said at the time, that the only pledge he would give-he would not give a written one-was, that he would use all his heart and soul to induce the people to an insurrection, even before the 8th. Mr. Dillon made a similar statement, and said, so help him God, he would. M'Gee said, both by speaking, by writing, and by action, he would do all that within him lay to excite the people to insurrection before that time.

Now, up to what hour of that evening are you able to recollect, as near as you can come to, that these people kept together that that meeting kept assembled together?-Within about a quarter to twelve.

The Solicitor - General here handed some papers to the witness.

Witness, take those papers, beginning at the first; look carefully at them, and say what you know about that paper; it seems to be in pencil.-Part in pencil.

Confine yourself to the first one you know any thing about.-That is my own writing (handing one of the papers to the Solicitor-General). I wrote it for the purpose of electing the persons whose names appear on it to form the Executive Council.

Now, the next in order.

Whiteside: My lords, I submit that Mr. Attorney-General should now prove the custody-where he got those papers. This man has spoken to things of which he has given parol evidence.

Solicitor-General: Do you know the handwriting of any person whose name appears on that document ?-Yes, that is the writing of J. F. Lalor.

Is this your (sic) name to it ?—Yes, I saw him write it; and I turned round to Draper and smiled, because he affixed his name to a ballot ticket.

Lalor's name appears to that, and that is his handwriting?—Yes.

And there are the names of five persons on that ?-Yes.

You have got a third paper; do you know whose handwriting that purports to be, to the best of your belief? It is like the handwriting of M'Dermott.

You can speak to it ?-I saw him write it. MOORE, J. (to Clerk of the Crown): You had better mark them 4, 5, and 6.

Solicitor-General: Do you find any other paper there which you can swear to, either from having seen it written, or knowing whose handwriting the contents are ?-(After looking through a number of small slips of paper) To the best of my belief that is the one that Mr. O'Higgins wrote. I saw him write it by my side.

Was he the representative of a club, or a representative of the council ?-He was the representative of a club at least; he might have been one of the council.

But he attended there as one of the persons voting ?-Yes.

BLACKBURNE, L.J.C. What became of these papers P-I saw them in the room afterwards.

Who took possession of them ?--I should think Mr. Halpin, the secretary. Solicitor-General: Do you know that of your own knowledge ?-I do not know any thing at all about them.

Now, from the time that you parted with that balloting paper of your own, and saw them on that night, did you see them again from that night until within the last month-we will say within the last fortnight?-Until within the last three or four days I never saw those papers from that night.

My lords, we now close our direct examination of this witness.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: We shall now adjourn for a quarter of an hour. In the meantime let the witness remain here, so that there be no sort of communication with him.

Whiteside: I must request this witness

to remain on the table.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: Let the Sheriff take charge of the witness.

spoken-the Red Hand Club ?-From about the 16th of June.

Did you speak in that club ?—No. Did you vote in it ?-There was no voting in it.

Were there any rules in connection with this club hung up in the room ?— Yes, there were rules.

Were those the rules there marked with pencil (handing a number of “The Nation newspaper to the witness)? Those are the rules, I think ?-Well, I believe they are.

I will read them to you.

"I. That every member of the Irish Confederation, residing in shall be entitled

to be a member of this club, on undertaking to comply with its regulations; and none but members.

"II. That the following be the officers and committee for the local arrangement of the club for the first six months-vice-president, add to their number. treasurer, secretary, committee-with power to

"III. That the rooms of the club be open to members from o'clock until o'clock each

"IV. That, in the absence of the vice-president, or president, the members of the committee take the chair in rotation, to preserve order and method in the conduct of the proceedings.

"V. That no sectarian discussions be al

lowed in the club-rooms under any pretence

whatever.

Witness: It is very hard to be exhibited here as a spectacle.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: Mr. Sub-Sheriff, keep him in view, so as to let no one communicate with him.

The Witness was then accommodated with a seat by the Sub-Sheriff.

Cross-examined by Whiteside.

Do you take an interest in political matters ?-I think I do.

Your voice has become a little delicate; you take an interest in political matters in this country ?-Not much.

"VIII. That all sums collected by the club collectors, for the use of the Confederation, be forwarded, at least monthly, to the treasurer of

the Confederation."

I ask you, were these rules suspended in that room P-I did not say they were.

Were they not ?-I said there were some such rules similar to those, but I could not take on myself to swear they were the same as those.

Now, was not the first resolution, that all members of the Confederation be members of these clubs, altered; and was it

members of these clubs ?-That was the rule so far, but then it did not exclude any others who did not belong to the Confederation.

Did such a club, on your oath, exist at all as the Red Hand Club ?-On my oath it did exist.

Is there any living man here but yourself to prove that such a club existed at all ?-On my oath, I don't know.