was

Now, you said that at this meeting, there some conversation with reference to a meeting on the 21st, and you have given five accounts of it; which of these five accounts is the truth ?--I don't know. Listen to this: you said that it was stated at that meeting, that a meeting would be held on the 21st on account of important business; did you not swear that?--I did use that word.

Did you not say it was a meeting to review the clubs ?--I did; I call that important.

And did you not say that it was a meeting for the arrangement of subcommittees ?-I did; I consider that also important.

Did you not say that it was a meeting to arrange the clubs ?- I did.

And did you not, lastly, say that it was a meeting to appoint an Executive Council? I did.

And you said that Mr. Dillon objected to Mr. O'Brien being proposed for that office; did you not say that ?—I do; I say that Mr. Dillon objected; all the members present were disposed to elect Mr. O'Brien; Mr. Dillon said that Mr. O'Brien wished not to be elected on the council, but to have the privilegethat he could go through the country, organizing the country better than if he was on the council.

In point of fact, he was not elected ?— He was not.

How many people were there present at that meeting ?--About twenty-nine or thirty.

How many votes had the Reverend Father Kenyon?-I was not the scrutineer.

Did you not hear Father Kenyon's name proposed to be a member of this council; have you been told not to admit that? No.

all.

Solicitor-General: Tell all ?-I will tell

Whiteside: Was his name proposed as a member of the council of war ?-I tell you Mr. Duffy wrote, through Lalor, from prison, proposing that Fathers O'Malley, Kenyon, and Hughes should be elected on this executive council.

Three priests?-Yes; and there were other persons he named also to be elected

Was it not said in terms that a meeting was to be held on the 21st for those five objects? Who said that?-I did not say five objects; but you might

Who said that the meeting was to be held for any of those purposes?-You might have asked me at five different times, and I might have stated that I considered that each and every one of them was important business.

Who said the meeting was to be held on the 21st for those purposes

Scott: Did you hear anyone state so ?-Yes, I heard Mr. Dillon and Mr. O'Gorman mention that, and another.

You were at the meeting of the 21st, the last meeting, were you not ?-I was.

Mr. O'Brien was not there?-No.

And there were only representatives of clubs to be present ?-That was all. Representatives of clubs, or members of the council.

You stated that somebody said Mr. O'Brien would be the ringleader of this movement?-I did not say "the ring. leader."

mously opposed electing a priest, as it was a council of war.

[Whiteside handed seven balloting papers containing the name of the Rev. Mr. Kenyon, and one containing the name of the Rev. Mr. O'Malley, to the Witness.]

Do you still persist in telling me that it was resolved on not to elect a priest on the council of war before you went to the vote ?--I do swear that a clergymau was not to be on it; and the reason they said was that it was to be for war.

Do you know Mr. Kenyon ?-I do. Where is he now ?--I don't know. Is he not at this moment at large in his parish ?--He may be.

And Mr. O'Brien is in the dock, who was not voted for at that meeting by a single man ?-His name does appear.

Struck out, is it not? What a cautious informer you are! Is not Mr. O'Brien's name struck out? It was because he would not be elected P-Yes, by the scrutineers.

Because he would have nothing to do with it. Tell me, how did you become a member yourself?-How did I become a member?

How? Who proposed you ?-I was proposed by a person of the name of Hanlon-I fraternized with him.

That is the handy man; the same?— Very well.

At that club you belonged to, I dare say, you were the president?-I was

not.

Were you the secretary ?--I was not. I was a member of the committee.

Do not give me a ghost, but tell me a living man, a member of that club, called the Red-Head or Red-Hand Club, who was the president, describe him by name? There was no president.

Who is the secretary?-He was a man of the name of O'Callaghan.

Where is he ?-I believe he has gone to America.

Anybody else?-No. I don't think it prudent to give you the names of other persons.

We are not allowed to know the names of our brother conspirators?-I don't think you ought.

Now, Mr. Dobbyn, may I take the liberty of asking you what you are by profession ?- A Protestant.

I did not ask you that, you know; I meant what is your business in life ?-At present ?

What were you born to ?—I am a clerk. Where did you get the rudiments of your legal knowledge ?-I have no legal knowledge.

I think you have-you underrate your talents.-No.

Indeed you do. What did you begin life as ?-As a surveyor.

Where did you carry on that respectable profession ?-In Ireland.

Tell me whose estate you ever surveyed, or when it was you were surveying? It is a good while back.

Where were you surveying ?—At Killarney.

When?-About two years ago.

You gave up that business ? Yes. You found it fatiguing ?-I had a sprain in my leg.

Who did you serve with as law clerk ? -I never served any time.

Who first told you to go to the clubs, Mr. Dobbyn, in the respectable capacity of an informer ?-It was not Mr. Montgomery.

I did not ask you that; but who sent you ?-Why, the same person. That has been ruled.

That shows me what an apt genius you have for the law. When was it ?-In June.

Have you had any cash yet ?-I do solemnly swear that from the time I entered the clubs, down to the time I left them, I neither directly nor indirectly received any gratuity.

Gratuity P-Or any other money. Were you not compensated? —No, never.

Is it all due P-I stipulated for nothing; I expect nothing. I expect the protection of a subject, and I expect nothing else.

There has not been a word said to you about money ?-Never.

And not a farthing given to you ?— No.

You are a gratuitous informer ?-Why? You know you told a falsehood in going into the club-you said they went to plot, and you went to counter-plot, and arrayed yourself under false colours. Is not that so ?-I don't care

Gained information; you have done all that ?-And defeated their aim.

You have not hanged all your men yet; you are to be believed by a jury first. Did you swear an information ?-Never.

Did you ever swear an information stating one word of these speeches on the face of it, so that we could get a copy of it ?-I did not. I do swear that I never intended to come as a witness.

When did you first know that you were by the Government to be brought forward at some time or other, to inform on the clubs ?-When I was handed a subpœna,

You had no notion of it before you were handed a subpoena ?-Two days before it. You had given all your information be

Did you not keep notes and memoranda ?--I did.

And you gave all that to the Crownto some unknown friend trafficking between you and the Crown ?-I did -very reluctantly.

Do you know Mr. Halpin ?—I have seen

him.

Where is he ?-I heard that he has been arrested.

Where is he at present ?-I don't know. Is he not secretary to the Confedera tion ?-Yes.

Did he not know all the proceedings? -He did.

Is he not alive?-He is.

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In the custody of the Crown ?-I believe he is.

You may go down.

Solicitor-General: You may go down, Dobbyn. I have nothing to ask you.

Thomas Griffin-Examined by Scott. Spoke to arresting James F. Lalor at the house of Mr. Joseph Kennedy, of Ballyhane, co. Dublin, on the morning of July 28, whilst in bed, and to finding a roll of papers (produced) in a black bag in the room.

Cross-examined by Fitzgerald.

Did you put any marks on these papers -how do you know them to be the same? -I opened them out, and I saw them particularly that morning; and the day after the magistrates assembled, and they saw the papers.

Did you count them ?-No.

How many were there in the bag?-I could not tell you.

Were there fifty ?-It was a large roll, and I would have marked them only they

were so numerous.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: Have you any other mode of identifying these papers? Scott: No, my lord. Amongst them are the balloting papers.

Mark Pender-Examined by Sausse. Constable in the Dublin police. Spoke to seeing Mr. Smith O'Brien pass up Dame Street on a car about seven or eight in the morning of July 22. He had a travelling bag, and apparently a blue cloak on the car. He went in the direction of St. Andrew Street.

Patrick M'Kenna-Examined by Lynch. Mail-guard on the Wexford night mail. Spoke to taking up two gentlemen on the 22nd of July last at Loughlinstown. One of them was Mr. Meagher. Had only seen the gentleman once before. They got down at Enniscorthy. Loughlinstown is about seven miles from Dublin. It was five minutes after five on Sunday morning.

Francis Dunlevie-Examined by the Attorney-General.

Constable. Spoke to seeing Mr. Smith O'Brien arrive at Enniscorthy by the day coach about five o'clock in the evening of Saturday, July 22.

Did you hear him say anything when he arrived ?—Immediately after his alighting from the coach there were about a hundred persons assembled; he asked them if they were all repealers, and I heard no reply.

Did he say anything else ?-Not in my hearing. I saw Mr. Meagher and Mr.

O'Brien on the next day in the streets of Enniscorthy immediately after last mass.

Did you hear Mr. O'Brien say anything on that Sunday?-He said he was glad there was a club formed in the town, but regretted that its members were so few, and that they did not receive that support that might be expected from so populous a town.

What else?-That a club should be formed in every town.

Well? And that parish clubs should also be established, so as to complete the organization. He was happy to see so many of the police present. That they were a fine body of men, and all Irishmen; that they should be treated as friends until they proved themselves otherwise; that he was received in many parts of Ireland in a friendly manner by a great portion of the British soldiery. He alluded to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. He said he could not tell but that there was a warrant at that time in the hands of the police for his arrest. He called on the people to prepare for any emergency. That is all I know of his speech.

What did Mr. Meagher say ?-He said he always was and ever would remain the unrelenting enemy of the British Government. That he had the honour, a short time ago, of addressing 50,000 Tipperary men. That they were prepared-or that they swore, I cannot say which to do their duty. He alluded to the differences he had with the late Mr. O'Connell. cannot give the words. He said the best way to make amends would be to bring the flag of liberty and plant it on his tomb.

I

Did any one speak after Mr. Meagher? Mr. Dillon was introduced. He said that if they expected that he would make a speech they would be disappointed. He heard the Wexford men were not good for making speeches or holding political meetings. They were brave and determined; that they all had a gun in the corner, and were always sure to hit their mark. They left Enniscorthy immediately after.

They went on the road leading to the county of Kilkenny ?-They did.

Cross-examined by Whiteside.

You were at school in your youth ?—I was.

And spoke speeches when you were young ?-No.

Nay, you have spoken the speech most admirably. Where were you standing that day?-In the crowd.

I need not ask if you had a writingdesk with you?—I had not.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: Do you require those notes to refresh your memory ?No, my lord. He said he was surprised and delighted to see so large a concourse of people there before him, particularly as he appeared so unexpectedly. He said, "I see and admire your enthusiasm, but the best way I can judge or test the feelings of your hearts is by calling you at once to the field. I have to tell you I am about to be made a victim to English misrule and English domination, but there is a time gone by when, if any of my blood or ancestors were about to be seized on-Prisoner: Speak a little louder. "About to be seized on, no matter by whom, there were strong arms and stout hearts that would not allow it. I now ask you, will you allow it ?" The answer from the crowd was "No, never."

Did he add anything?—Yes; he said, "I know you also have strong nerves and stout arms, and I stand here and tell you that I want not place or emolument, that I have sacrificed near and dear family ties, and I am now determined with you to sacrifice life-but this is not the time for speeching." Mr. O'Brien retired after that, and Mr. Meagher came out. saw Mr. O'Brien afterwards, while Mr. Meagher was speaking at the window. I have not so good a recollection of Mr. Meagher's speech.

I

Did you make a note of it the same day I did, immediately afterwards. I had then a perfect recollection. Mr. Meagher speaks much more quick than Mr. O'Brien. Mr. O'Brien spoke with emphasis, but it would be impossible for me to recollect without looking over Mr. Meagher's speech. (The witness referred to his note.)

Can you recollect or state anything that Mr. Meagher said on that occasion P-He said, "People of Carrick, when last I appeared amongst you I was on business connected with my country, but now I am upon Government business. The Government has advanced a step lately." Mr. Meagher then alluded to the arrest of Mr. Mitchel and to his transportation. He talked of Mr. Mitchel's talents. He said one of the most gifted of the citizens of this island was sent away by the acts of the Government; and he talked of five others, who were arrested, who were equally gifted. He complained of the Government for having transported Mr. Mitchel. He made an allusion to the judges, but I cannot say whether it was bloody or perjured judges. He said, that every step which the Government advanced, he would advance one to meet them. He said, "The scenes of '98 are talked of, but they can only punish us with death; I am ready to meet it. I am ready

Scott: Yes, if there is anything else that you are sure he said. "I tell you I am ready, but we must not do anything hurriedly or in a confused manner. I give you a few hours to deliberate, and again tell you that I am ready. (The witness then looked at his note.) The people separated.

Can you state at all what was the appearance of the crowd when those speeches were made ?-They appeared terribly excited.

Were you apprehensive

Whiteside: I object to a policeman's apprehension being made evidence against the prisoner.

Scott: Very well.

Cross-examined by Whiteside.

This is your note. On your oath, was that paper written in your hand P-It was written since I came to Clonmel; I wrote this from the notes from which my informations were taken.

Did you not give us to understand that the paper you spoke of was the original note ? You told the jury that was a copy -This is a true copy of the informations lodged by me.

Whiteside: I warn the Crown, I will not allow another paper to be referred to If it was a five-shilling action he would not be allowed to refresh his memory in that way.

BLACKBURNE, L.C.J.: We never heard a word of the original document, or whether it was a copy of the document.

Whiteside: On what day did you make the note; it is "last past" on this thing? -Immediately after the meeting separated; on the same day it separated.

Why do you call that the "24th of July last past "P-I know it; I might have made a mistake.

Are you in the habit of reporting ?Never.