Senator NEW. Either before or afterwards, if there are any agreements between the other nations, our allies, of which we have been kept in ignorance.

Senator WILLIAMS. That is the reason I asked the question, because you used the word allies.

Senator NEW. Allied or associated powers. In the event that such private agreements do exist, the United States not being a party to them, would they not in effect bind the contracting Governments to stand together in their interpretation of them?

Secretary LANSING. Well, that is a rather hypothetical question. That goes into the conscience of nations, and it is rather philosophical. Senator NEW. Now, Mr. Secretary, in the event that their interpretations of those agreements are contrary to the interests of the United States, what recourse would this Government have?

Secretary LANSING. I should have to know something about the nature of the agreement before I could determine what recourse we could have.

Senator NEW. With reference to the open-door policy in Asia, and the Asiatic trade, Asiatic conditions generally.

Secretary LANSING. Well, I have been assured that the British Government is strongly in favor of the continuance of the policy of the open door and opposed to spheres of influence, and that is by Mr. Balfour.

Senator BORAH. How do you reconcile that with the action of the British Government entering into secret agreements which would give Japanese spheres of influence in affairs in China?

Secretary LANSING. Not more than Germany did.

Senator BORAH. But we are not following German precedents.
Secretary LANSING. It was prior to our being in the war.

Senator BORAH. These same agreements were entered into with Japan for the very purpose of giving her spheres of influence in China, and Great Britain not only entered into that secret agreement but she has exerted her influence to maintain and support it.

Secretary LANSING. Great Gritain has a habit of keeping her treaty obligations.

Senator BORAH. Yes; so I have heard.

Secretary LANSING. They were under peculiar conditions at the beginning of the war, in endeavoring to get Japan into the war in orer that Japan might control the Pacific and the indian Ocean, and prevent German raiders.

Senator KNOx. Was not Japan bound to come in under the Japanese-British alliance?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator KNOX. Was any special effort required to get her to keep her agreement?

Secretary LANSING. That I could not say.

Senator KNOX. There ought not to have been, ought there?
Secretary LANSING. I do not think so.

Senator MCCUMBER. I would like to ask the Secretary a question if he is through on that subject. If I understood you correctly you preferred to make a full statement as to the Lansing-Ishii understanding.

Secretary LANSING. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCUMBER. Are you prepared to do that now as to what it meant and the extent of it?

Secretary LANSING. I should like to make that at a future time. Senator MCCUMBER. That is the only question I want to ask now before we leave. I want to ask some questions about the labor provision, but as that is in the latter portion of the treaty, we may cover that later.

Senator BORAH. I want to ask a question in connection with this same subject matter, with reference to the phrase "regional understanding," in article 21. Would that phrase cover the secret agreement or these special agreements between Japan and Great Britain? Are not those regional understandings?

Secretary LANSING. Well, I confess I do not know.

Senator HITCHCOCK. Do you consider those secret treaties in effect now?

Secretary LANSING. I suppose they are.

Senator HITCHCOCK. Would they be in the event of the adoption of the league of nations?

Secretary LANSING. No; I think that would dispose of them.

Senator HITCHCOCK. They would be abrogated by that?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator HITCHCOCK. Abrogated then upon the ratification of this treaty by Japan?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator MCCUMBER. Provided they are in conflict with it.

Senator HITCHCOCK. They are specifically denounced.

Senator McCUMBER. To the extent that they are in conflict with it.
Senator NEW. Are you through, Senator Hitchcock?
Senator HITCHCOCK. Yes.

Senator NEW. Mr. Secretary, on that same line, just one question. As article 21 of the league covenant reads, the implication is that there are so-called regional understandings other than the Monroe doctrine. That is the implication. Can you tell us what some of these regional understandings are?

Secretary LANSING. Yes; Morocco, Egypt, certain portions of East Africa.

Senator KNOX. Liberia?

Secretary LANSING. Liberia is another.

Senator NEW. Would it not be well in order to arrive at a complete understanding and to avoid future disagreements, to set forth all the regional understandings that are to be hereafter observed? Secretary LANSING. You mean in the league?

Senator NEW. Yes. The Monroe doctrine is specifically named as a regional understanding.

Secretary LANSING. It might have been well. That is a matter of opinion, that is all.

Senator NEW. Well, are we to understand, Mr. Secretary, that in joining the league with that article phrased as it is that we accept that definition of the Monroe doctrine?

Secretary LANSING. What definition do you mean?

Senator NEW. As a regional understanding, that we accept that definition of it, that it is a regional understanding.

Secretary LANSING. Yes, I should think so. Yes, it is a regional understanding. It is a phrase that I was not familiar with until it appeared in the covenant.

Senator NEW. Who originated that phrase?

Secretary LANSING. I have not the slightest idea.

Senator NEW. I think we are all alike on that. None of us ever heard of it.

Senator BORAH. The public press attributed it to Col. House. Senator McCUMBER. It is an understanding that covers a certain region?

Secretary LANSING. That is it.

Senator MCCUMBER. There is no objection to calling the Monroe doctrine a regional understanding if it covers the Western Hemisphere. The CHAIRMAN. With whom is the understanding?

Senator McCUMBER. I would like to have an answer to my question.

Secretary LANSING. Will you please repeat it?

Senator MCCUMBER. I stated that if the Monroe doctrine is a doctrine covering certain regions of the earth, that is the Western Hemisphere, what objection is there to calling it a regional doctrine? The CHAIRMAN. A regional understanding.

Senator MCCUMBER. Well, a regional understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. With whom is the understanding?

Secretary LANSING. It does go perhaps to make an understanding. Senator McCUMBER. If the rest of the world agrees to it there is an understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. They have not, yet.

Senator MCCUMBER. This treaty is supposed that they do acquiesce in it.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, it is to be a regional understanding. It will not be until the treaty is agreed to.

Senator WILLIAMS. Call it by that name in order to keep it from being the Monroe doctrine.

Secretary LANSING. I do not believe I can debate that.

Senator MCCUMBER. My question is, What is the objection to using the term region?

Secretary LANSING. I am not objecting.

Senator NEW. I do not know that it is so much an objection as it is to ask for information.

Senator MCCUMBER. We do not have to draw very heavily on our understanding to know what regional means.

Senator POMERENE. Nor what the Monroe doctrine means.

Senator BORAH. But it would require a good deal of fancy to make the Monroe doctrine to conform with that.

The CHAIRMAN. In speaking about England's dealings with Japan, you said that England had a habit of carrying out her treaties. Was it carrying out her treaty when she said to her ambassador at Tokyo, I think it was the letter has been published-when he gave out the statement to Great Britain about Japan's demand for the control of the German rights in Canton, that of course it was understood that England would have all the islands south of the Equator? Was that carrying out and fulfilling England's treaty obligations? Secretary LANSING. With whom, Germany?

The CHAIRMAN. No; was it a treaty obligation before?

Secretary LANSING. I do not think so; no; only she captured the islands; that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Has England captured those islands?

Secretary LANSING. She captured the islands south of the Equator. The CHAIRMAN. She captured Samoa.

Secretary LANSING. She took some of the others too.

The CHAIRMAN. Did Japan have some?

Secretary LANSING. That is purely a matter of recollection; but I think subsequently they were turned over to Japan to hold in order to release the British Navy to go to the seat of war.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought those islands were taken by the Australian ships.

Secretary LANSING. Australian. I include those in the British. Senator BORAH. Mr. Secretary, were you chairman of the commission to try the Kaiser?

Secretary LANSING. Yes; not to try the Kaiser.

Senator BORAH. To prepare for his trial?

Secretary LANSING. The commission known as the commission on responsibilities.

Senator BORAH. What did that have to do with the trial of the Kaiser?

Secretary LANSING. It had to do in this, that there was a question of responsibility as to the authors of the war and responsibility for violations of the laws and customs of war. The commission investigated the matter and reached the unanimous decision that, while it was most reprehensible and there was unquestionable guilt of individuals as to having caused the war, there was no legal process by which they could be tried for such an offense.

Senator BORAH. Then the trial of the Kaiser is not to take place? Secretary LANSING. I do not say that.

Senator BORAH. Do you know of any legal process by which he could be tried?

Secretary LANSING. No; no legal process; no.

. Senator BORAH. We are not going to take part in any process that is not legal?

Secretary LANSING. It is practically an investigation as to his guilt and determination as to what penalty, if any, should be imposed upon him, purely on the grounds of policy.

Senator KNOX. Could they not punish him without trying him, just as they did Napoleon?

Secretary LANSING. Exactly. This is a matter of international policy as to what should be done.

Senator KNOX. Is it not a breach of all precedent and an unheard of thing to try a ruler for a political offense of that character.

Secretary LANSING. There is only one case that I know of, and that is the case of Mary Queen of Scots. She was tried by a foreign authority. She was executed by a foreign authority, and as a matter of policy her son ruled over her executioners and hung the judges that were alive at the time.

Senator KNOX. It was not very popular even at that time, or since?

Secretary LANSING. No.

Senator POMERENE. Capt. Henry Wirz was court-martialed and executed by the United States because of conduct in excess of what was recognized by the rules of warfare. Under that same principle the Kaiser could be tried.

Secretary LANSING. It is a different thing.

Senator WILLIAMS. On what principle of law was Napoleon Bonaparte tried?

Secretary LANSING. None. It was a matter of policy.

Senator WILLIAMS. Just as it is here. They sent Napoleon to Elba, and afterwards to St. Helena, but there was no law by which he could be tried?

Secretary LANSING. NO.

Senator KNOX. That is what they ought to do now as to making up this neutral court.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, may I ask you a question?
Secretary LANSING. May I just complete the answer?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Secretary LANSING. Senator Williams, I am perfectly willing to submit the report to this committee. I am perfectly willing to submit the report of the commission on responsibilities, and the reservations that were made by the American delegates.

The CHAIRMAN. Merely a historical point. Napoleon Bonaparte was a prisoner of war, was he not?

You say, "the

Senator HARDING. The Secretary interests me.
reservations that were made by the American delegates."
The CHAIRMAN. Can I not ask this question?
Senator HARDING. Certainly; I thought you had.
The CHAIRMAN. I had not gotten the answer.

I asked you simply

if it is not true that Napoleon Bonaparte went on board the Bellerophon and surrendered himself as a prisoner to the British?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And he remained a prisoner of war?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The Kaiser has never done that, has he?

Secretary LANSING. NO.

Senator WILLIAMS. But Great Britain did not sentence and did not punish him; the Vienna Congress did that.

Senator MCCUMBER. Mr. Secretary, there is a provision in the treaty itself whereby any officer guilty of any conduct against the rules of war may be extradited and may be tried by a court-martial, is there not?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator MCCUMBER. The Kaiser was an officer, was he not, in the German Army?

Secretary LANSING. Well

Senator MCCUMBER. He was an officer in the German Army; and if he was an officer, wherein is he not responsible, while the officers. under him, who received their commands through him, are responsible? I mean, under the provisions of the treaty which Germany makes herself?

Secretary LANSING. That was the report of the Commission, with which the United States disagreed; and I am perfectly willing, as I say, to submit the report of that Commission and the memorandum of the United States setting forth its reservations.

The CHAIRMAN. Our delegates disagreed to it, did they not?
Secretary LANSING. We disagreed to that feature.

Senator MCCUMBER. But the Commission found that they had the authority under that part of the treaty?