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Senator JOHNSON of California. And during that month you were conferring, not only upon the specific points of the treaty of peace, but conferring, as well, upon the specific points of the league of nations, were you not?

Secretary LANSING. Yes; we were advising the President, who was the authority.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Exactly. But the President sat with you as one of the plenipotentiaries there, and all of you sat together the President and all of those whom he had appointed? Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And discussed both the league of nations and the treaty of peace?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Now, if I were to read to you what purports to be article 10 of the American draft, would you recognize it, do you think?

Secretary LANSING. I possibly might. I could not tell.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Permit me to read, then, what has been published as article 10 in its original form

Senator WILLIAMS. What original form do you mean, now-the draft of Mr. Lansing?

Senator JOHNSON of California. No; the original American draft. Mr. Lansing says-perhaps you did not hear him

Senator WILLIAMS. Yes. He said it had been redrafted later. Senator JOHNSON of California. He says that he presented a resolution himself.

Senator WILLIAMS. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. But that there was a draft-if I am in error, he will correct me- -an American draft.

Senator WILLIAMS. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. I am reading what purports to be article 10 of that American draft now.

Secretary LANSING. I suggested this resolution to the Presidentthat is all-as a method of procedure.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes, sir.

Senator HITCHCOCK. Will you let me interrupt a moment, Senator? I want to make this clear. Mr. Lansing, you were not a member of the commission of 14 nations that considered the league of nations? Secretary LANSING. Not at all.

Senator HITCHCOCK. That work was done by the President and Col. House?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator HITCHCOCK. So that aside from your first discussion with the President, you were not familiar during those long struggles and discussions with the details?

Secretary LANSING. Not at all.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Oh, but I understood you to say that there was a consultation and conference prior to the meeting of the Paris conference-the official conference.

Secretary LANSING. Yes; undoubtedly.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And during that month the league of nations was discussed repeatedly; was it not?

Secretary LANSING. Yes; and it was discussed with the delegates of other countries, too.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Exactly; and discussed in detail Secretary LANSING. Yes; but the American commissioners did not hold these discussions as a commission. They were discussed by the President and Col. House, who were going to take part in the commission's work.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And you were a part of the discussions, were you not, prior to the conference?

Secretary LANSING. Not with foreign representatives.

Senator JOHNSON of California. No, no; but with the President and Col. House and with the other members of our peace conference? Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Certainly.

Senator SWANSON. Before you leave that, Mr. Secretary, you say you presented a resolution. By whom was that resolution to be passed by the conference?

Secretary LANSING. It was to be passed by the conference.

Senator SWANSON. That was a resolution that the President should offer in the conference?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator WILLIAMS. You suggested it to the President as what you thought would be probably the American suggestion to the conference? Is that about the idea?

Secretary LANSING. Well, it was really preliminary to the drafting of a covenant.

Senator WILLIAMS. Yes; I understand. It contained your ideas of what ought to be in the covenant—your ideas?

Secretary LANSING. In general terms; yes.

Senator HARDING. With Senator Johnson's permission I want to ask you a question, Mr. Secretary. You said there were conferences and exchanges of opinion on the part of the American commissioners as to the course to pursue. Would you mind saying whether it was decided that the league of nations should be negotiated as the foundation upon which to build the peace treaty?

Secretary LANSING. I do not know that that was discussed. I have no recollection of any such thing.

Senator HARDING. There never was any understanding that the league of nations should be assented to first?

Secretary LANSING. Not to my recollection was any such thing proposed.

Senator HARDING. That is all.

Senator JOHNSON of California. I now read to you what purports to be article 10 in its original form in the American draft of the league of nations, which was published by Mr. Hamilton Holt, vice president of the League to Enforce Peace and editor of the Independent. I read from the copy in the New Republic, on page 5, of its last issue:

The contracting powers unite in guaranteeing to each other political independence and territorial integrity against external aggression; but it is understood between them that such territorial readjustments, if any, as may in the future become necessary by reason of changes in racial conditions and aspirations or present social and political relationships pursuant to the principle of self-determination, and also such territorial readjustments as may, in the judgment of three-fourths of the delegates, be demanded by the welfare and manifest interests of the people concerned, may be effected if agreeable to those people and to the States from which the territory is separated or

to which it is added, and that territorial changes may in equity involve material compensation. The contracting powers accept without reservation the principle that the peace of the world is superior in importance to every question whatever of political jurisdiction or boundary.

Do you recognize that?

Secretary LANSING. I can not tell you; no. commit myself because I am not sure at all.

I would not like to

Senator JOHNSON of California. Are you familiar with Article X

of the present covenant?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know whose particular article that was, or who originated it?

Secretary LANSING. I do not, sir.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know whether it was an article that originated with the American commissioners?

Secretary LANSING. That I do not know.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Are you familiar with the fact that the plan that was finally accepted was the plan of Gen. Smuts? Secretary LANSING. I think it was, with certain modifications. Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know what those modifications were?

Secretary LANSING. I could not tell, except by comparing Gen. Smuts' plan.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Have you in your mind now any modifications which you may suggest that were made?

Secretary LANSING. No; I have not.

Senator JOHNSON of California. None at all. Did you have part subsequently, as one of the commissioners, in the adoption finally of the league of nations?

Secretary LANSING. No; except in so far as we received the various drafts for consideration and comment.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Who received the various drafts? Secretary LANSING. The American commissioners.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you mean those of other nations?

Secretary LANSING. I said "the American commissioners.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes, I know; but what I meant was, did you receive the drafts of the other nations, or justSecretary LANSING. Oh, no; the drafts of the commission. Senator JOHNSON of California. Of what commission?

Secretary LANSING. The commission on the league of nations. Senator JOHNSON of California. Were those received before the meeting of the Paris conference, during the month that you were in Paris before the meeting?

Secretary LANSING. The commission was not appointed until the 12th of January.

Senator JOHNSON of California. That is, it was not appointed by the peace conference?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. But you had been meeting for a month prior to that in Paris with the American commissioners? Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Now, just again, if you please. Pardon me for the insistence, because I think we may be at cross

purposes in the matter. What drafts do you refer to now that were submitted to the American commissioners?

Secretary LANSING. I can not tell you exactly. Of course, we had an American draft, and then subsequently there was a preliminary draft that was the basis, I think, of the discussions in the commission on the league of nations. How that was drafted I do not know; and then the commission on the league of nations made corrections and redrafted it, and that went on several times, I think.

Senator JOHNSON of California. In your original suggestions as to what should be included in the league of nations did you have anything in respect to any matter such as Article 10?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. What was your conclusion in that regard?

Secretary LANSING. Well, you see at that time the President had indicated very clearly his views as to what should be contained as to the matter of guaranties, and so I naturally included that in the resolution that I proposed, basing it very largely on the form that the Panama Treaty took.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Your resolution, then, was subsequent to the agreement on the form-the agreement that had been reached by the commission?

Secretary LANSING. Oh, yes. It was after the commission on the league of nations had met.

Senator JOHNSON of California. So your resolution was designed. merely to carry out what had been agreed upon? Secretary LANSING. Not entirely that; no.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Well, what else?

Secretary LANSING. It was merely a declaration of principle by which the conference would practically indicate its will for the purpose of guiding the commission on the league of nations in its deliberations, which were not completed at that time. It was toward the end of January that I made the suggestion.

Senator JOHNSON of California. It was not with the design of indicating what the league of nations should contain, because that was in what had been submitted to you. Is that correct?

Secretary LANSING. Yes; I think that is correct.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Now, you undertook your duties in connection with the general treaty. Was not the President engaged in those duties as well?

Secretary LANSING. I do not understand you.

Senator JOHNSON of California. You said awhile ago that the committee on the league of nations from America consisted of Col. House and the President.

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. You, I assume, were engaged with your work upon the treaty during that period-the treaty of peace, generally, rather than the league of nations. Is that correct?

Secretary LANSING. Yes; and with the commission on responsibilities, which sat for two months.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Did the President sit with you in those matters at all?

Secretary LANSING. In the commission on the league of nations? Senator JOHNSON of California. No.

Secretary LANSING. I mean, the commission on responsibilities? Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes.

Secretary LANSING. No; he had nothing to do with it.

Senator JOHNSON of California. When you began your duties, then, with the general peace commission in the manner which you have indicated, did you commence with a definite plan as to how to arrive at peace or as to what the treaty should contain?

Secretary LANSING. Well, yes; I had a general idea as to what I thought the treaty should contain.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Had there been, in what had transpired prior to that time, any definite basis for the idea that then you had? Were you relying upon the 14 points, or upon the armistice agreement, or upon any particular written matter that had been submitted to the world prior to that time?

Secretary LANSING. No.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Were you working to any specific, definite end in the peace treaty that had been declared prior to that time?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. That specific, definite end related to specific, definite terms?

Secretary LANSING. In certain cases.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And they had been embraced in what had been declared to the world before that time?

Secretary LANSING. Well, I do not know that they were declared in definite terms in the matter of detail. General principles were declared. They were common-sense principles which anybody would follow.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And it was merely a matter of common sense and general principles upon which you acted?

Secretary LANSING. And an avoidance of policy and expediency. Senator JOHNSON of California. I beg pardon; I did not catch that. Secretary LANSING. And an avoidance of the motives of policy and expediency instead of principle.

Senator JOHNSON of California. So that your treaty was founded upon general common sense and the avoidance of policy and expediency?

Secretary LANSING. Embodied in the 14 points, of course.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Well, that is what I am getting at; and I am trying to ascertain whether you were starting with the 14 points as a basis.

Secretary LANSING. I consider those as common sense.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Were you starting with the 14 points as the basis of your peace?

Secretary LANSING. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Did you carry it out?

Secretary LANSING..I think so.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And does the peace treaty?

Secretary LANSING. As far as possible. Of course you understand, Mr. Senator, if you have been in any negotiations of this kind-I can appeal to Senator Knox, who knows that it is absolutely impossible to get 23 nations to carry out the exact wishes of one.

Senator JOHNSON of California. I am not questioning that.
Secretary LANSING. Well, it sounds so.

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