I find also a communication from the then president of Brazil, Mr. Gomez. I find a note from the Serbian Legation to the minister, thanking him for the entrance of Costa Rica into the war. I find a cablegram under date of June 19, 1917, from Brazil to Costa Rica, notifying them that Brazil was entering the war, and calling upon all the republics on this continent to join them; and I find here an answer from Costa Rica complying with the request of Brazil, expressing their gratification at the action of Brazil, and their intention to follow Brazil in the matter. Did you have any knowledge of those matters? Secretary LANSING. I think I did. Senator FALL. Then who was it that had not recognized Costa Rica, or caused her to be left out? Secretary LANSING. The United States of America. Senator FALL. Yes; thank you, sir. Secretary LANSING. You could have asked me that to begin with, and I would have answered it frankly. Senator FALL. I may be unfortunate in my method of interrogation. Senator WILLIAMS. Has an ambassador, or a legation, or a general in the field any right to recognize any government? Secretary LANSING. Oh, no. Senator FALL. The Senator evidently did not hear the answer of the Secretary. Senator WILLIAMS. The Senator evidently did hear it. Senator FALL. I did. Senator WILLIAMS. Well, I did, too. Senator FALL. I did not think the Senator would interject a remark of that kind if he had heard the answer. Senator WILLIAMS. I am sure the Senator heard it, and the Senator interjected the remark for the express purpose of showing the wide extent and the small depth of all this stuff. Senator FALL. I would not engage in a controversy with the Senator from Mississippi, nor with the honorable Secretary of State; but if it became a matter of importance I would ask the Secretary of State, and I think I know what his answer would be, if there are not more ways than one of recognizing a government. Senator WILLIAMS. Oh, yes; but Senator FALL. You agree, do you? Senator WILLIAMS. But those telegrams are not one of the ways. Senator FALL. That depends altogether Senator BORAH. This controversy is very unfortunate. Senator WILLIAMS. The whole thing is of no importance. Senator FALL. You mentioned Mexico, Mr. Secretary. Was the United States equally responsible for the noninvitation or the fact that no invitation was extended to Mexico to join the league? Secretary LANSING. No. Senator FALL. It was not. Then who was responsible? Secretary LANSING. I do not know. Senator FALL. Did the United States suggest extending to Mexico an invitation? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator FALL. It did not. Did any other nation suggest it? Senator FALL. You do not know whether France suggested it? 135546-1914 Senator FALL. Did you meet Mr. De la Bara in Paris? Senator FALL. May I ask-I am not going to ask you what it was-but did you have any conference with him with reference to Mexican affairs? Secretary LANSING. Not a word. Senator FALL. He was the former ambassador to this country? Secretary LANSING. I knew him very well. Senator FALL. And he was the president ad interim between Huerta and Madero ? Secretary LANSING. We just had personal conversations; that was all. Senator FALL. I was not going to ask you, of course, about that. It would not be official, I presume. Now, Mr. Secretary, was there any discussion in reference to Mexican matters or any phase of the Mexican matters at Paris in which you engaged? Secretary LANSING. None at all. Senator FALL. There was no discussion? Senator FALL. May I ask you whether, when you came in as counsellor for the State Department, you found upon your files, or whether after you came in there were placed upon your files, any notices of any kind or requests from this Government to any other Government that the United States of America be allowed to handle Mexican affairs? Secretary LANSING. No; I have not seen any such thing. I do not recall any such thing. But what has that got to do with the German treaty? Senator FALL. I understood that you were considering the peace of the world, and that you were engaging in the formation of a league for the conservation and preservation of the peace of the world. Secretary LANSING. That is quite true, but I am considering the treaty. I am not considering Mexican affairs. If you wish to ask me about Mexican affairs, I shall be very glad to come before the committee at any time and discuss them; but I should like to be prepared beforehand, because I do not know where an investigation of this kind is going, and I do not propose to answer offhand. Senator FALL. I am not going to ask you to answer anything that I think would embarrass you at all, sir. I so stated with reference to the conversations between Mr. De la Bara and yourself. They were not of an official nature, as I understand you? Secretary LANSING. Not at all. Senator FALL. So I simply asked you whether you had met him there and talked to him. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. I asked you nothing as to the purport of your conversations. Something of that kind I might know myself through some other source, but I am not going to interrogate you about it at all. I simply ask you now as leading up to what I consider to be a very important matter, and which it seems to me must necessarily have been considered in some way around the peace table with reference to Mexican matters. Secretary LANSING. I might say that, so far as I know, Mexico was never mentioned. Senator FALL. It was not? Secretary LANSING. No. Senator FALL. No phase of Mexican matters was mentioned? Senator FALL. The question of the French banking interests in Mexico was never mentioned? Secretary LANSING. Never to my knowledge. Senator FALL. I am not asking you as to the contents of any notes. Do you know, however, whether the United States Government has made representations to any other Government, prior to the peace conference or during the peace conference, with reference to the liability or nonliability of the United States and such other Governments for debts or damages due to the nationals of such Governments in Mexico? Secretary LANSING. I never heard of such a thing. Senator FALL. And nobody suggested that Mexico should be even invited into the league? Secretary LANSING. Not to my knowledge. Senator FALL. Who suggested that Sweden should be invited into the league, Mr. Secretary? Secretary LANSING. I do not know; but, of course, you will bear in mind that the list was made up by France originally. Senator FALL. The list of those who were to be invited to the conference was made up by France? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. I am glad to know that. I did not know that. Secretary LANSING. They had control of the organization, it being in Paris. Senator FALL. Then such nations as France left off of her list were not invited to become parties to the league of nations? Secretary LANSING. I do not think there were any added. I do not recall. Senator MOSES. Senator, I understood the Secretary to mean that France made up the list of nations to be invited to the peace conference. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator Moses. Not the league of nations. Senator FALL. No; I am speaking now-there is a list here Secretary LANSING. Oh, the league of nations? Senator FALL. Yes, sir. I Secretary LANSING. I do not know how that was reached. assume that was done, probably, by the commission on the league of nations. Senator FALL. There are so many States here who signed. Aside from the principal allied and associated powers, various other States. signed this treaty, the States invited to accede to the covenantthe Argentine Republic, Chile, Colombia, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Paraguay, Persia, Salvador, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and Venezuela. You do not know why Mexico was not invited? Secretary LANSING. No; I do not know. I assume it was made up by the commission on the league of nations, but I am not sure about that. Senator FALL. And you are sure that Costa Rica was not represented at the peace table or invited to sign because of the United States? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. Because of her objections? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. Thank you, sir. Senator BRANDEGEE. Mr. Secretary, referring to this list of matters that Senator Fall suggested to you, and then asked you whether they were the subjects of consideration over there by the peace commission, and you say as to the most of them they were not, so far as you know, or according to your knowledge-it is quite possible, I suppose, that some of them may have been discussed without your knowledge; is it not? Secretary LANSING. I doubt if the Mexican question would be. Senator BRANDEGEE. What do you say as to the other questions? Secretary LANSING. What other questions? Senator BRANDEGEE. Many of them that you do not know about that have been asked you this afternoon. It is not possible that the commissioners themselves, the heads of the States, had conversations among themselves that you did not know about? Secretary LANSING. Oh, possibly; but I am quite convinced that Mexico was not discussed. That is the only thing that I am referring to. Senator BRANDEGEE. Now I want to ask you just this one question. Article 10 of the covenant of the league reads as follows: The members of the league undertake to respect and preserve as against external aggression the territorial integrity and existing political independence of all members of the league. In case of any such aggression or in case of any threat or danger of such aggression the council shall advise upon the means by which this obligation shall be fulfilled. I understand your view of the effect of that article is that although we, if we entered the league, would undertake to respect and preserve as against external aggression the territorial integrity and existing political independence of all members of the league, when the council advise upon the means by which this obligation should be fulfilled it is then optional with every member of the league to do as they please about the matter? Secretary LANSING. Furthermore than they think it is their duty. Senator BRANDEGEE. Now, if that is so, as it seems to me, in view of the fact that the friends of this league are claiming to erect something that is going to at least diminish the possibilities of war, at any rate, under this article 10, guaranteeing the territorial integrity of all members against external aggression, if each member of the league is to be allowed to carry out its guaranty in its own way, what sort of a spectacle will the world be treated to if all the members of the league think that different methods ought to be adopted to carry out the guaranty? Secretary LANSING. Well, but of course Senator BRANDEGEE. I had supposed this was an idea of unifying the members, so that their combined strength could be brought against the offending power. Secretary LANSING. I think you are quite right about that. I think your views are correct about that, and that by a council of the nations when there has been external aggression to be resisted, or the rights of the nation invaded restored, they should counsel together as to the means which should be taken. It is assumed that the decision of the council will be a reasonable decision. In any event, it will be of value in showing how the aggression may be resisted. Senator BRANDEGEE. My point is this: Suppose there is a threat of aggression, and the council meets in conclave, and resolves unanimously, our delegates concurring with the others, that a force of a million men should be raised and sent against the offending power, and that the proportion of the United States of that force is hereby apportioned as 200,000 men. In your view of this, we are not in honor bound to agree to conform to the judgment of the council; but if we think at that time that our contribution and our honor will be sufficiently vindicated by having Congress pass an economic law cutting off trade with the enemy, that we have sufficiently fulfilled our pledge to guarantee the territorial integrity of our friend and fellow-member of the league, that is perfectly permissible, and can be done without any reflection upon our honor? Secretary LANSING. I think the chances are that we would have to refer it back to the other nations and say that we viewed this as an unfortunate way of handling the situation. Senator BRANDEGEE. Yes. Suppose we have a pacifist wave in this country at that time, and we have had enough fighting, and we say we will resort to economic pressure; we will forbid our citizens to trade with them, etc. Now, then, your theory is that we so report to the council, who are begging us to send 200,000 men? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator BRANDEGEE. And then if the council adhered to their former well-considered recommendation, and said, "You are a shirker; we want your men and your guns, and we do not care anything about your statute of Congress.' Then what would we do? Secretary LANSING. Then I suppose it would be up to Congress to determine whether we should raise the men. Senator BRANDEGEE. In other words, we would be an international slacker if we did not obey the recommendation of the council of the league, in my opinion. Now, in your opinion we would not be? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator BRANDEGEE. If your opinion is correct, I desire to state that in my opinion this whole fabric is a league of sand, a rope of sand, without any power whatever except moral suasion. Senator BORAH. Not even that. Senator BRANDEGEE. Which is not very effective against the bayonets of ravaging Prussians, in my opinion. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions? Senator WILLIAMS. Is not that about the measure of power under which we waged the war of the Revolution and won our independence? Was there any way of making a colony furnish its quota? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator BRANDEGEE. France had to come to our rescue. Senator BORAH. We got out of that fearful dilemma just as quickly as we could. Senator WILLIAMS. Yes; after we once formed a government. the Senator does not want to form a government. But The CHAIRMAN. The Secretary has been on the stand now for some hours, and I do not know whether the Senators desire to ask him any more questions or not; but the Secretary said there were certain statements he would like to have time to prepare. Secretary LANSING. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. When would it be convenient to you to make those statements? |