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Senator BRANDEGEE. The previous speaker, Mr. Walsh, spoke of men being taken prisoners in this fight between the populace and the British constabulary. What sort of a trial did they get ?

Mr. DUNNE. My information is that they got a trial before a courtmartial or a removable magistrate. If a man in Ireland makes a speech in which he advocates the republic he is immediately brought up. If he advocates or argues in favor of the recognition of the Irish republic, they take that man up before a court-martial or before a removable magistrate, who is paid $4,000 a year.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Under the British law it is a crime to advocate that, is it not?

Mr. DUNNE. Yes; notwithstanding the fact that 75 per cent of the people have gone to the polls openly and voted for that. We found that men's houses are searched without warrant; that men, women, and children are arrested without warrant and confined at the pleasure of the Government, either in an Irish jail or deported to an English jail. A boy, 11 years of age, was arrested there and kept in jail for two months. No one knew where he was. Finally he was released when there was a threat of an investigation. That is the situation we found in Ireland.

The leaders of the Irish people, the men who were elected by their constituents to the British Parliament, refused to attend the British Parliament and organized the Irish Parliament—the Dail Eireann; many of them were in jail, not being able to attend the meetings of the Parliament, with the result, of course, that the sentiment of the people being so overwhelmingly with them that when they get them in jail they can not keep them there. Robert Barton, owner of a landed estate, 1,200 acres of the most beautiful country ever seen, with a manorial residence, an officer of the British Government, was compelled by the British authorities to take charge of Irish prisoners and saw such indecencies committed that he resigned his office as a protest, becoming a Republican, and was elected to the Dail Eireann. He made a speech during the campaign. He was arrested and placed in Mountjoy, remained there a couple of weeks, and then managed to saw a bar, left a very polite and humorous note addressed to the governor of the jail, saying that he did not like his bill of fare or his sleeping accommodations, and would the governor of the jail be kind enough to send his clothes to the address given in Dublin. He was a man of such prominence and his case excited so much interest that an official investigation was ordered, and while the investigation was going on in the jail the deputy warden rushed in and said, “ My God, there are 23 more of those fellows gone over the wall.” That is the situation in Ireland.

Let me tell you of two little incidents that I witnessed with my own eyes. Three of four hundred soldiers under the command of British officers surrounded the Mansion House in Dublin, and three or four hundred policemen under official direction surrounded the Mansion House at half past 5 in the afternoon, for the sole purpose of preventing the Lord Mayor of Dublin from extending an official reception to the delegates from America. While we were attempting to get in, some guns were fired. There were a crowd of 20,000 or 30,000 people around the house, brought there by the mere fact that the military, with armored guns, were around the Mansion House. People were laughing at them and guying that ridiculous

with a ma by the indecenckepublicang the there a cond h

display of military force made for the sole purpose of preventing a social function tendered by the chief executive of the great city of Dublin to the three gentlemen who had come there from America.

A few hours before that the bedroom of the chief lady of Ireland was desecrated by the police, seeking as they claimed, some escaped prisoners. That is the situation which we found in Ireland.

Now, it is my judgment that if this treaty be confirmed by this body-and you are charged with the responsibility of approving or disregarding this treaty-if section 11 be approved you gentlemen wilī be acting as partners in the enforcement of that kind of law upon an unwilling people. We ask you to reject this treaty as American citizens, not because we are Irishmen, but because the Government over there as it now exists is an outrage upon constitutional government, because there is a situation to-day that rivals, if it does not exceed, the situation that prevailed years ago under the most tyrannical conditions of that time.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will take a recess now until 2 o'clock. We will hear the Greeks from 2 to 3, and then we will resume this hearing.

(Whereupon, at i p. m. a recess was taken until 2 p. m.)


The committee reconvened pursuant to the taking of the recess, at 2 o'clock p. m., Senator Henry Cabot Lodge presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. I have here a protest against the views expressed in the morning session, signed by David W. Irvine, Henry Stewart, John Kennedy, Lieut. Lewis H. Shaw, Albert E. Kelley, William H. Cheney, and William Balfour. I told these gentlemen that we could not give them a hearing to-day, but I would give them a hearing next week. The gentleman who represented them said he desired to file this brief and have it published in our hearings. Senator Knox. It is a brief against what?

The CHAIRMAN. It is in opposition to what has been said here this morning. It will be printed at the conclusion of this hearing.

Senator Knox. Mr. Chairman, I see no objection to including within our hearings everything that we hear, but does the chairman think that we ought to open the door for people to file briefs ?

The CHAIRMAN. That authority was given when we started the hearings—that they would have a right to file briefs.

Senator Knox. The first thing we know they will be filing books after a while. I think anyone who has anything to say ought to heard.

The CHAIRMAN. This relates to the hearing which we granted this morning. The other side has requested to be heard in this way.

Senator Knox. I think we ought to hear them, if they are here.

The CHAIRMAN. We could not hear them to-day, and I thought it would save the time of the committee to permit them to put in a brief. We have done that on several occasions.

Senator New. The brief is in lieu of a hearing ?
The CHAIRMAN. In lieu of a hearing; yes.

Senator Knox. I do not want to insist, but it does seem to me that if they have anything to say that is worth hearing, we would

better hear them rather than give them an indefinite right to print, because that is what it amounts to.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we can control the right to print.
Senator Knox. Perhaps we can.

(The brief referred to will be found at the conclusion of to-day's proceedings.)

The CHAIRMAN. Judge Cohalan, I will ask you to present your next speaker.

Judge COHALAN. Gentlemen, I have the pleasure now of presenting to you Lieut. Gov. W. W. McDowell, of Montana. STATEMENT OF HON. W. W. McDOWELL, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR


Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, when I came to Washington from Montana on yesterday morning with the seven governors who were appointed to attend the governors' conference with the President and the Attorney General, I did not know I was to have the pleasure and the honor of appearing before this committee.

I have been told by the gentlemen having this movement in charge that I am expected to speak only a few minutes, and that they would like to have me refer to the reception given to President de Valera, president of the Irish Republic, when he came to Montana recently. As my time is very limited, I will devote it to that angle of the matter, as tending to show the sentiment of the people on the question now being considered by this committee.

I will state that as lieutenant governor of Montana my duty is to preside over the State senate, and as such presiding officer I am familiar with the action taken by the legislature in its last regular session held in January and February of this year, and also the action taken at the special session held a few weeks ago.

At the regular session of the legislature last winter a resolution was unanimously adopted, there being no dissenting vote in either the senate or the house, asking the Senate and House of Representatives of the Congress of the United States to use their best endeavors to bring about the recognition of the independence of Ireland.

Before the special session of the Legislature of Montana met, President de Valera, of the Irish republic, came to Montana. I live in Butte, and as I was then acting governor it became my pleasure to welcome President de Valera to Montana and to extend to him the freedom of the State. The reception which he received there was the most enthusiastic and the most spontaneous reception that I have ever seen since I have lived in Montana during the past 24 years. Our little town has a population of only about 65,000 people, but there were at least 10,000 people at the depot to greet President de Valera when he got off the train. It was almost impossible for him to get through the crowd to get into the automobile which was waiting for him to go uptown. I had the pleasure and the honor of riding uptown with the president, and I noticed that there were more returned soldiers in uniform escorting that automobile uptown than I have ever seen in uniform in Butte before or since the war started.


I saw a great many horny-handed sons of toil break through the line and rush up to the automobile to shake hands with the president of the Irish republic, and there were tears in their eyes. The procession that came up from the depot with him was at least a mile and a half long. Every musical organization that we could get together in the State was there, and the sentiment of the people of Butte and the people of Montana is undoubtedly very strong in favor of Irish independence.

At the special session of the legislature the matter of again passing a resolution came up a few weeks ago. This was after President de Valera had been invited by me as the president of the senate to make an address to a joint session of the legislature. He stayed over several days so as to make this address. Some little opposition developed among some people in the legislature against inviting him. However, he was unanimously invited to address the legislature, which he did. He was then introduced to the crowd that could not get into the legislative hall, waiting in front of the capitol, and he received the same kind of an ovation in Helena at two or three meetings that he had received in Butte.

Another resolution was introduced in the special session of the legislature asking the Senate of the United States and Congress to do what they could to bring about recognition of the Irish republic, and this matter was fought out on its merits, and finally passed both the house and the senate by a good majority. I mention this to show that, in my opinion, three-fourths of the people of Montana and of the States around Montana are thoroughly and heartily in sympathy with the movement for the freedom of Ireland.

Senator Knox. May I ask you a question right here? It was represented to us this morning that the fate of the Irish republic depends upon whether or not we reject this proposed league of nations. Now, you say the sentiment in Montana is in favor of an Irish republic. How is the sentiment there on the question of the league of nations?

Mr. McDOWELL. I believe the opinion in Montana and in the surrounding States is one of decided opposition to any clause in any treaty or in any league of nations that will in any way stand in the way of Ireland securing her freedom.

Senator Knox. Then if Mr. Walsh is correct in his statement this morning that to adopt this league at all would defeat the Irish republic, your judgment is that the sentiment of the people of Montana would be against the whole league?

Mr. McDOWELL. I think I have expressed the opinion which I wish to express in what I said before.

Senator Knox. All right, I will not press you further.

Senator FALL. Would you object to answering this question: Is it the opinion there that any article in this proposed league would possibly, affect the freedom of Ireland ?

Mr. McDoWELL. I think that among practically all of the Irish in Montana they feel that it would. There are a great many other people in Montana and in the adjoining States who are not of Irish blood, who, I think, are in hearty sympathy with the aspirations of Ireland, and would be opposed to any clause in any treaty that would stand in the way of Irish freedom.

Senator JOHNSON of California. One further question: Do you think guaranteeing the boundaries of the British Empire will affect the question concerning which you are speaking here and the question that we have before us to-day?

Mr. McDOWELL. Senator, I have answered that question as far as I am prepared to answer it.

Senator Johnson of California. I wanted to be perfectly fair on the proposition and perfectly fair as to the position that you gentlemen take in respect to this matter.

Mr. McDoWELL. I am approaching this matter from a somewhat different angle from that of a great many of the gentlemen who have spoken here this morning so eloquently on this matter. I am a Protestant. My ancestors came to this country 250 years ago, and I am thoroughly and heartily in favor of Irish freedom and in helping them to obtain it. I think the great majority of the people of Montana and the surrounding States feel the same way about it regardless of whether they have any Irish blood or not, and they would be opposed to any clause in any treaty that would stand in the way of Ireland securing that independence.

Judge COHALAN. I wish next to present Mr. John A. Murphy, of Buffalo, N. Y., the fourth member of the American Commission on Irish Independence, who has recently come back from Paris.


Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman and Senators, in accordance with the request of the committee having in charge the American Commission on Irish Independence, I left on the 21st of June and reached Paris un the 30th of June. During the week while I was sailing the peace treaty had been signed and the President and the presidential party had returned to America. The colleagues with whom I expected to fall in in the carrying on of the work, Messrs. Walsh and Dunne, had also returned from Paris, and I did not meet them in France.

It is needless to say that for a while the situation in France, as a stranger might sense it, was one of relaxation after the strain of the peace conference. It was one of an intense amount of gossip and whispers and reactions from the results of the peace conference.

During the mosť of the time I was there I was busily engaged in presenting the case of Ireland to the editors of the French papers and in endeavoring to obtain a presentation of it before Mr. Clemenceau, to whom it was stated the question of Ireland was referred in his capacity as president of the peace conference.

After being in Paris for about two or three weeks I became advised that before the President and Mr. Lansing left France they had been informed by Mr. Clemenceau in his capacity as president of the peace conference that no action would be taken upon the question of Ireland. That was material news and in my judgment it foreclosed any possibility that Ireland may have or might expect to have of prosecuting her cause before the league of nations.

On June 22 I wrote a letter in the name of the American Commission on Irish Independence to Mr. Clemenceau, and if you will permit me I will read the letter, or if you desire I will insert it in the record. It is on page 65 of the brown pamphlet.

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