Members voted for it, it was equally for their interest that the clause should be altered. Carriages were used at elections purely for Party purposes. There were more Conservatives than Liberals, and very few Radicals at all, who had carriages; and consequently the clause, in its present shape, would give an advantage to Conservatives as against Liberals, and an advantage to Liberals as against Radicals. He trusted the Attorney Ge this matter. He did not want to pin his vote to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle, and he was quite sure that if the hon. and learned Gentleman would intimate his willingness to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Heneage), his hon. Friend would, with the view of not impeding the progress of the Bill, be quite willing to withdraw the present proposal. But there must be some restriction placed upon the systematic lending of carriages in large numbers by candidates or committees, because hon. Gentlemen on those Benches could not understand what was the distinction this was a moot question at the time of the last Reform Bill. He (Mr. Labouchere) recollected that there existed then a very strong feeling that the conveyance of voters to the poll ought to be made an illegal practice; but this was not carried, because it was felt by a large number of county Members that they would be placed at a very great disadvantage if the lending of carriages were prohibited, because, as a matter of fact, the people who owned private car-neral would make some concession in riages in the majority of cases were Conservatives. He was certain that if there were what might be called a carriage franchise there would not be so many Liberals sitting in that House, while certainly there would be exceedingly few Radicals. There was no doubt it was an enormous advantage to a candidate to be able to send electors to the poll in carriages. He did not mean to say that a man who was taken to the poll in a carriage would vote for the candidate who conveyed him there; but it was probable that, under the circumstances, he might not vote at all. Speaking as a borough Member, he could say that, as a rule, the Conservatives in the neigh-between the case of a man being allowed bourhood of his borough sent in a large number of carriages which were systematically used to carry electors to the poll, and that practice was not confined entirely to the more wealthy class, because, as the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) had told them, in the borough which he represented, all the butchers were Conservatives, and lent their carts for the purpose of taking people to the poll to vote for the Conservative candidate. From the Conservative point of view, he regarded it as perfectly right to vote against any restriction being placed on the lending of carriages; his difficulty was in understanding how Members of the Liberal Party could vote against such restriction. It was a clear advantage to the Conservatives, but it was a clear disadvantage to the Radicals. Hon. Members knew this very well. He was speaking to Gentlemen, every one of whom had taken part in elections, and when it was seen that the Conservatives all rallied to oppose the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen), they all knew it was very much to their interest that the 6th clause should not be passed in its present form. They might take it also as a matter of fact that when Radical Mr. Labouchere to lend a dozen or 20 carriages to a candidate, and the candidate himself being allowed to hire them. The lending and hiring of carriages for electoral purposes appeared to them to be precisely the same thing in principle, because it gave a distinct advantage to the rich man over the poor man. MR. E. STANHOPE said, he was sure the Committee would have heard with regret the tone in which the hon. Member for Northampton had just spoken. The hon. Member, no doubt, expected, by his mode of treating this question, to obtain a few additional votes; but it must be evident to hon. Members opposite that if the rest of the Bill were to be discussed in the same spirit, there would be little chance of its being finished for some time. For his own part, he should not imitate the example of the hon. Member. They were asked to prevent a man lending his carriage to a neighbour for the purpose of taking him to the poll. But, he asked, was there any corruption in a man lending his carriage for that purpose? [Mr. LABOUCHERE: Hear, hear!] If that was the opinion of the hon. Member he did not think it would be useful to take up more time in the hope less attempt to convince him to the con- | eloquence, of talent, or influence, it was trary. But there were persons outside that House who were not of his opinion; persons who looked upon the proposal of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen) as an attempt to interfere with individual liberty. He trusted it would never be said that a person who acted in good faith should not be allowed to convey a voter to the poll in his own carriage. As the question had been fully discussed, he had no wish to detain the Committee any further than to say that if the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle were carried, it would very much influence his views with regard to the Bill as a whole. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES) said, he could not think that the tone in which the hon. Member for Northampton had supported the Amendment was calculated to facilitate the progress of the Bill. If the adoption of that Amendment had been a matter of difficulty before, the speech of his hon. Friend had made it impossible. But, looking at the principle which the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle contained impartially, and without any Party view of the question, he was bound to say it was one which Her Majesty's Government could not accept. The 6th clause had now been under consideration for three days, and the whole subject of conveyance had, in his opinion, been very fully discussed. Under those circumstances, he hoped the Committee might be allowed to come to a decision on the present Amendment without the expenditure of further time. The object of the Government in introducing this clause was two-fold; first, they wished to prevent corruption as it was accomplished by the hiring of carriages; secondly, they wished to prevent the incurring of great expense, because in the matter of expenditure the rich candidate had a great advantage over the poor one. But when it was proposed to make it the law that a man should not be permitted to lend his carriage-where, he asked, would that principle end? He thought the corruption involved in a man taking another to the poll under such circumstances was of very small extent, and certainly there was no increase of expense occasioned. Voluntary effort could not be checked. If a man possessed a large amount of impossible to prevent his using them in furtherance of his own candidature. There was one view of the question, however, which he would lay before the Committee, which he hoped would meet the objection taken by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and which he would himself wish to see carried out. After the speech of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), it was rather difficult to propound that view to the Committee, seeing that his hon. Friend had spoken from a Party point of view. But he could assure the Committee that the suggestion he had to make had nothing of a Party character about it. A person might possess 40 or 50 carriages, and it was possible he might say to a candidate-"I will lend you all my carriages; I ask no payment to-day." That proposal might be accepted, and thus, by the indirect action of the person who owned the carriages, there would be a preponderance of carriages on one side; and although there might be no payment at the time, yet, sooner or later, the candidate, or other persons on his behalf, would be asked to make good the cost. To guard against that he had thought it right to prepare a sub-section, to the effect that "A person shall not let, lend, or employ for the purpose of the conveyance of electors to or from the poll any public, stage, or hackney carriage, or any horse or other animal kept or horse or other animal which he keeps or uses used for drawing the same, or any carriage for the purpose of letting out for hire, and if he lets, lends, or employes such carriage, horse or other animal, knowing that it is intended to be used for the purpose of the conveyance of electors to or from the poll." A person acting contrary to this provision would be guilty of an illegal practice, and liable to the penalties provided. There would be a Proviso to the effect that nothing in this sub-section would apply to any carriage horse or other animal lent to a person for the purpose of conveying himself to the poll. The whole object of the proposed sub-section was to prevent that which was really objectionable in the conveyance of persons to the poll-namely, the employment of carriages and animals with the probability of their being paid for by-and-bye. He trusted that this proposal would commend itself to hon. Members on both sides of the House, as affording a solution of the difficulty [Eleventh Night.] that had been so long under con- | have been immediately called to Order. sideration. SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS said, he was not going to discuss the proposal of the hon. and learned Attorney General on that occasion. His object in rising was to say that the question of conveyance had now been before the Committee for three days; and he looked upon it as rather extraordinary that, at the last moment, a new sub-section dealing with the subject should be produced by the Attorney General. He thought that there had been ample time, during the three days' discussion which had taken place, for the Government to have made up their minds. For his own part, he altogether objected to discuss the alteration proposed by the Attorney General until he saw it in print. He thought that it would have been better to bring forward the proposal in the form of a new clause; at all events, it would be a waste of time to discuss it on that occasion. He ventured to submit one remark upon the clause of the Attorney Generalnamely, that it would facilitate more corruption of the kind they were considering than anything else which could be devised. There was nothing to prevent one voter hiring a carriage for the conveyance of himself, and then taking a large number of his friends with him. Great difficulties were presented by the clause proposed by the hon. and learned Gentleman; and he would ask him not to go into these minor and petty details, and then there would be a much better chance of getting to the end of the Bill. MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD said, he took no Party view of this subject; but he considered that the proposal was one of very considerable importance. was not going to discuss the Amendment of the Attorney General; but he would take the opportunity of pointing out that it met only one part of the question then before the Committee-namely, that part of it which related to the jobmaster. He admitted that the proposal of the Attorney General would meet that one difficulty; but they were now upon a question of private carriages. The hon. Member for Northampton had spoken as if carriages were an article of luxury; but that was not always the case. By far the larger number of "car THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES) said, he would readily join in any request which the Committee might think it right to make with regard to the proposal of the Government. Unless the Committee wished to pursue the subject then, he was quite willing to accede to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The delay in bringing forward the clause was due to the desire of the Government to ascertain the wishes of hon. Mem-riages bers; and they believed they had at last succeeded in drawing a clause which would meet the requirements of the case in a satisfactory manner. SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT said, he was sorry his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General had made the statement they had just listened to, because he did not think it would tend to advance the Business of the Committee. They were now engaged upon a particular Amendment, which had been strongly urged upon the acceptance of the Committee by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), and the proper course was to proceed to dispose of that Amendment. But, in order that the Government might be assisted to do something, a sop was now thrown out to the Committee in the shape of the hon. and learned Gentleman's proposal. If that proposal had emanated from anyone else than the Attorney General, the hon. Member who made it would The Attorney General were used for purposes of trade and business. If he might be permitted to refer to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Cowen), he would suggest that when it came forward the word "persons" should be substituted for " person; " and he was glad to see that his hon. Friend assented to that view of the case. It was not reasonable that a farmer should, on election day, be limited to carrying a single person to the poll. MR. MACFARLANE said, that, although they were asked to make provision for the prevention of the hire of carriages, there was another plan by which corruption could be effected, and that was the purchase of carriages. The Bill did not prevent a man purchasing any number of carriages, and he might do that on the understanding that when he had made use of them they should be taken back at a certain price. It appeared to him that there was great scope for corruption in an arrangement of that kind. It was quite practicable | impartially to the lending of carriages. for a man to buy both horses and carriages, and then return them in the manner he had described. He trusted the Attorney General would consider the necessity of meeting that particular form of corrupt practice. ["Divide!"] MR. H. H. FOWLER said, the principle involved in the Amendment before the Committee was too serious and important to be stifled by cries of "Divide." He thought the question raised by the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen) was not to be disposed of by references to the particular phraseology of the Amendment, or by offering to support the Amendment which followed it on the Paper. The question they had to decide was as to whether the principle which the Committee had already adopted should be applied logically, impartially, and completely. The Committee had accepted the principle of prohibiting the conveyance of voters to the poll in hired carriages; and hon. Members on those Benches asked that that principle should be extended to the prohibition of carriages that were lent for the same purpose. The working of the carriage system at elections was this. Two or three days before the election took place, a circular was sent out to all the carriage-owning friends of the candidate, asking how many carriages they would place at the disposal of the committee on the polling day. In reply to this circular, carriages were sent, decorated with the colours of the candidate, the servants wearing rosettes, &c. The carriages were then apportioned to the various districts precisely in the same manner as hired cabs. He and his hon. Friends contended that a man who, by his social position or family influence, could command a large number of private carriages, had a distinct advantage over the candidate who did not occupy the same social position, or whose political opinions were, perhaps, not in harmony with the carriage-owning class. They said that under the present system, which compelled a working man to vote either in his breakfast or dinner hour, and under which the polling places were at a considerable distance from his residence, there was a great advantage to a man who possessed the means of locomotion. The Committee had prohibited the hiring of carriages, and he asked that the principle should be extended It appeared to him that when the Attor ney General said that the ownership of carriages was one of the effects of wealth which they could neither disregard or neutralize, he was placing wealth on the same level with the possession of brains. But the object of the Bill, as he understood it, was to destroy, as far as possible, the influence of wealth in their electoral proceedings. The Government said, in effect, that the man who was in possession of sufficient money to be able to give 200 guineas for the permanent ownership of a carriage might permit that carriage to be used for the promotion of his election; but they said, at the same time, that the man who could only pay two guineas for the hire of a carriage for that purpose should not be allowed to do so. That proposition need only be stated nakedly to the Committee, and its weakness would then be manifest. He was satisfied that if this question were settled on the principle proposed by the Government the settlement would not be a permanent one, because the working classes of the country would not be content to see such an obvious advantage given to the wealthy candidate. He appealed to all sections of the House to remedy this manifestly one-sided legislation; and he was sure the Attorney General could easily construct a clause that would put a stop to the practice of placing at the disposal of Committees a large number of private carriages on the day of election, which was quite as objectionable as placing at their disposal a large number of cabs. BARON HENRY DE WORMS said, that the discussion which had taken place on this Amendment had been extremely valuable, although it had not been entirely characterized by the absence of Party feeling. He thought it would have been well if the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had taken to heart the observations of the Attorney General, who had recommended that the discussion should proceed without any tinge of Party feeling whatever. The hon. Member, however, had not followed that recommendation. Moreover, the hon. Member appeared to have departed somewhat from the issue before the Committee. He had said that one of the objects of the Bill was to prevent the carriage of voters to [Eleventh Night.] the poll. That was quite true; but then the hon. Gentleman proceeded to draw a very strange analogy between that and the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen), the object of which was to prevent the lending of carriages. Now, the argument introduced by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, as to the advantage being entirely on the side of those individuals who were in possession of carriages, was altogether wrong and fallacious. He (Baron Henry de Worms) represented a large constituency of working men, and he was able to say that in that district there were more Liberals who polled in waggons and carts than there were Conservatives who polled in carriages. If the hon. Member could see corruption in Conservatives going to the poll in carriages which cost 200 guineas, he would like to know whether he would say there was corruption in driving Liberal voters to the poll in coal waggons? In point of fact, the two cases were in principle identical. There was some plausibility in the argument that the result of an election might be influenced by the wealthy class who had carriages, simply by the latter being drawn up under the windows of the committee room, ready to take voters to the poll; and the hon. Member argued, with that show of purity which characterized the Liberal Party, that they would not avail themselves of similar advantages if some wealthy Liberal, anxious to promote the Liberal interest, were to place his carriages at their disposal on the day of an election. But not only had he seen a great number of Liberals carried to the poll in carts, but he knew that a great number of rich Liberals had placed their carriages at the disposal of the Liberal Committees. He entirely denied that there was any predominance of carriages on the side of the Conservatives; on the contrary, he asserted that there were quite as many carriages in the possession of Liberals as in the possession of Conservatives; and he maintained that if the Conservatives had any advantage from lending their carriages, the Liberals also, even the extreme Radicals, could adopt that less fashionable but more commodious vehicle, the cart. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE said, so far from his being, as had been stated, opposed to the proposal of the Attorney General, he entirely agreed with it. Baron Henry De Worms The hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had discussed this question as if it related only to the rich. man's carriage, and, no doubt, he spoke with perfect accuracy with regard to the boroughs in his district on voting day. He could assure him, however, that he had seen in the boroughs in which he had been present on election days a much greater number of what might be called poor men's carriages being used by the committees than he had of rich men's carriages. There were a certain number of men who took a lively interest in the polling, and who lent their carriages; but, as a rule, the Conservatives were not those who took the keenest interest in it. Costermongers carts and flys were often largely used at elections. Therefore, he did not think this matter should be debated as if it were entirely a question of rich men's carriages. It would be impracticable to say, in the case of Irish counties, for instance, that a voter driving to the poll should not convey other voters with him, and he was sure it would be equally so in many places in England. But his hon. Friend wished the Government to adopt one of two Amendments on the Paper as offering a systematic way of getting rid of the difficulty; but he did not see how it would be possible, even if it were right to do so, to prohibit the lending of carriages to committees. He thought that his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General had gone as far as possible in that direction, in the proposal he had sketched out. No doubt a number of decisions would turn on the point as to whether the lending of carriages was occasional or systematic; but he thought it would be a danger to the Bill to adopt the proposal of the hon. Member. MR. LEWIS said, the Government were guilty of inconsistency in opposing the Amendment, and he thought their inconsistency was made more clear by the Amendment of which the Attorney General had given Notice, because it placed a restriction on a man's using his property as he had a perfect right to do, so long as he did not use it for an improper purpose. They were told in the case of the election of a Member of the Government at Hastings that the Liberals were using carriages of all kinds, as well as banners and other insignia; and according to the description given, |