suddenly proposed outside the Govern- | be great disappointment to-morrow ment. At the same time, as he believed among a considerable number of Memthe Motion to refer the matter to a bers of that House and in the country Select Committee would be assented to, generally, especially if it were found he trusted that the labours of the Com- that the Agricultural Department of the mittee would be successful. As to any Privy Council was altogether left out result which might be arrived at, in of the scope of the inquiry. At the consequence of the action of the Com- present moment he knew that utter mittee, he hoped it would not end in disgust was felt at the manner in the introduction of another and a new which matters concerning agriculture demand upon the finances of the State. were conducted by the Privy Council. They did not want a more excessive ex- The Minister who was at the head of penditure for the administration and con- the Department was in the House of trol of the Department. If they desired Lords, and another Cabinet Minister, to carry out out education well, whether who had very little to do with controlling the education was elementary, middle the Department, represented Agriculture class, or a high class system in the public in the House of Commons at present. schools, they must depend in the main He sincerely trusted that in appointing upon the good administration and the a Select Committee his right hon. Friend good effects of the principal persons the Prime Minister would consent to connected with the localities; and it refer all questions concerning every Deseemed to him that the real office of the partment of the Privy Council to the Central Department was not to enter Committee. into mere details and create an enormous establishment with high salaries, but to give such assistance and to collect such information as would be valuable in the local administration for the purposes of education. The real work was to be done in the country itself, and the more it was done in a locality the more efficient it would be. Of course, he was not disposed to raise any opposition to the appointment of this Committee; but he had thought it well to say at this stage that he did hope the result of appointing the Committee would not be the establishment of another and an expensive Department of the State.

MR. HENEAGE said, he entirely agreed with what had fallen from his hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Bryce), and he was not one of those who thought the proposal to make the Minister of Education a Cabinet Minister ought to be pressed. At the same time, it was their desire that whoever was appointed should be a perfectly independent Minister. His only object in rising now was to make an appeal to the Prime Minister that, as he was about to appoint a Committee to inquire into the functions of the Privy Council connected with Education, he should not limit the inquiry to the three questions suggested in the Resolutions of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Edinburgh (Sir Lyon Playfair)namely, Education, Science, and Art. If that were done, he thought there would

MR. WARTON said, he had listened with considerable interest to the discussion; but he could not join in the chorus of exultation which seemed to have been raised about a possible addition to the Cabinet. He thought that Lord Beaconsfield had displayed his practical good sense when he preferred a moderate Cabinet of 12 or 13 to a large Cabinet of 15 or 16. There was a constant demand for additions to the Cabinet. There was a cry for a Scotch Minister. ["No!"] Some hon. Gentlemen certainly had raised that cry. There was a cry for a Minister of Agriculture, and another for a Minister of Education; and if all these demands were complied with the Cabinet would become in the end most unwieldy. In point of fact, it would degenerate into a Grand Committee. Not only did he object to these demands on principle, but in this particular case he objected to the request on the special ground that the Vote for Education was already far too large. He believed that it was growing by £100,000 a-year. When the present educational system was first introduced a pledge was given that the rate should not exceed 3d. in the pound; but that pledge had been violated, and the rate was mounting up year by year. He was afraid the effect of having a Minister of Education would be that, when he came into his new Office, he would be disposed to magnify its importance. That seemed to be an error committed

by all Ministers. It was the case with | Schools Commission and the Charity the old Department, and the expendi- Commission. There could hardly be two ture was quite high enough; but with a opinions of that side of the House that new Department, and a new Minister not only should stimulus be given to the anxious to show how the new broom working of these branches of Public could sweep clean, the Education Vote, Business, but that it was also very denow very large, would be further in- sirable that the character of these Comcreased. Therefore, on both of these missions should undergo some very imgrounds, he opposed the creation of a portant modification, and he could see new Cabinet Office. no more suitable time for pressing the point upon the attention of Her Majesty's Government. He would, therefore, move to add to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Edinburgh (Sir Lyon Playfair) these words

MR. ILLINGWORTH rose to continue the debate.

SIR HERBERT MAXWELL wished to put a Question to the Speaker upon a point of Order. He wished to ask the Speaker whether, as the Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) had been withdrawn, it was competent for the Committee to discuss another Motion not on the Paper before the Motions which were on the Paper had been disposed of?

MR. SPEAKER: The course which has been taken by the House is quite regular. By the leave of the House the Amendment of the hon. Baronet was withdrawn, and there was no irregularity in taking another Amendment. course pursued was entirely a question for the House.

"And how such other duties as would fall within the province of a Minister of Public Instruction may be best discharged." He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Amendment to allow these words to be added to it, on the ground that it would prevent inconvenience from arising at a subsequent period.

MR. SPEAKER: That Amendment could not be put at the present moment. The Question immediately before the The House is that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question. If the House decides that Question in the negative, then the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Edinburgh (Sir Lyon Playfair) could be put as an original Motion, and the hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. Illingworth) would be in Order in moving his Amendment.

MR. RITCHIE asked to be allowed to make a remark upon a point of Order. He understood the original Motion to be one for going into Committee of Supply. And when the Amendment to that Motion, which stood on the Paper, had been withdrawn, he wanted to know whether it did not follow, as a matter of course, that the Member who had the next Amendment upon the Paper should be called upon rather than that a new Motion, by somebody else, which was not upon the Paper, should be taken?

MR. SPEAKER: The Motion for going into Committee of Supply was not withdrawn, but the Amendment of the hon. Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) was withdrawn. The original Question was then put, and upon that Question the right hon. Member for the University of Edinburgh (Sir Lyon Playfair) brought up his Amendment. The course which has been pursued is quite regular. The original Question has not been withdrawn at all.

MR. ILLINGWORTH desired to say a word upon a practical questionnamely, the working of the Endowed

Mr. Warton

Question proposed,

"That the words 'a Select Committee be appointed to consider how the Ministerial responsibility under which the Votes for Education, Science, and Art are administered may be best secured,' be there added."

Amendment proposed,

At the end of the proposed Amendment, to add the words "and how such other duties as

would fall within the province of a Minister of Public Instruction may be best discharged." — (Mr. Illingworth.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid these words are beyond the scope of the present discussion. It will be observed that the words now before us are not in the main our words, but the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Edinburgh. I can con

ceive certain collateral duties which may | thought the right hon. Gentleman should be, and have been, actually discharged adhere to that promise, especially as by the Vice President of the Privy there were now very few Irish Members Council, and my impression is that they present, and this was a measure which will be considered by the Committee; should be discussed not by a small party, but, at any rate, I think the Motion, but by the Leader and the whole of the as it cannot be altered by the proposal Irish Party. This was not a Money Bill; of my hon. Friend, would be of quite and, its provisions having been explained, a different character, and would require he submitted that it ought not now to be the Committee to mark out and frame a taken, especially after the promise given plan for the discharge of all duties which by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief could be brought within the scope and Secretary. view of a Minister of Public Instruction. That, clearly, would be much beyond the matter we have been debating since 9 o'clock, and could not, I think, be assented to by the House at the present time. That would require a full discussion. My hon. Friend may raise a question of that kind by a proposal to instruct the Committee; but I do not think the House is in a condition to enter into this at the present time, and we could not be a party to accepting this Motion.

"That the words 'a Select Committee be appointed to consider how the Ministerial responsibility, under which the Votes for Education, Science, and Art are administered, may be best secured,' be added after the word 'That' in the original Question," put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put.

Resolved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider how the Ministerial responsibility under which the Votes for Education, Science, and Art are administered, may be best

secured.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. (Mr. Trevelyan, Mr. Herbert Gladstone.) [BILL 154.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time." (Mr. Trevelyan.)

MR. BIGGAR said, he objected to the second reading of this Bill being now taken. The Bill had first of all been blocked; and in the second place, he believed, the Chief Secretary had told the Irish Members that he would not take advantage of the Half-past 12 Rule. He

MR. TREVELYAN said, the hon. Member's objection to this Bill being brought on at this time and not being a Money Bill, was quite untenable. It was not a Money Bill in the sense that it concerned very much money; but if ever there was a Money Bill in character, it was this, because it proposed to enable the Government to make a grant of £50,000 for pauper relief. As to the question of an agreement with hon. Members, the conditions were now entirely changed. Two months ago, when he brought this Bill forward, the hon. and gallant Member for Cork County (Colonel Colthurst) put an Amendment on the Paper of importance and interest. That Amendment was not now on the Paper, but it was to the effect that no Bill would deal with poor relief in Ireland satisfactorily which did not confer additional power on the Boards of Guardians in Ireland, with a view to assimilating the English and the Irish Poor Law administration. Since that time the hon. and gallant Member had brought forward that Motion, and a debate of great interest and importance had followed, and a majority-82 to 20-had decided against the Motion. That discussion was ended; and there was now no Amendment on the Paper except that of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar), to the effect that the Bill be read a second time this day three months. This was a Bill simply for the purpose of indemnifying four Boards of Guardians who had borrowed altogether £3,000, and to enable the Government to relieve those and other Boards of Guardians. The circumstances under which he had made the promise-at a time when the Resolution of the hon. and gallant Member for Cork County, or some Resolution analogous to it had been discussed - had been entirely changed, and he did not think the Government were now putting any strain

on the House, or on any section of the House, in asking the House to advance the Bill one stage this evening.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, he LOCAL was not concerned to endeavour to obstruct the advance of this Bill at all, but he wished to submit a point of Order. This Bill was to a great extent, and almost entirely, a Money Bill; but over and above those portions of the Bill which dealt with what was properly the subject-matter of a Money Bill, there was a clause which referred to the indemnification of Boards of Guardians who had exceeded their powers. He wished to put to the Speaker whether the mere fact of a Bill containing clauses which related to public money was sufficient to take that Bill out of the operation of the Half-past 12 Rule? If the mere presence of such a clause was sufficient to remove a Bill from the operation of that Rule, what proportion of a Bill was it necessary to have relating to other matters in order that a Bill should not come under that Rule? It was perfectly clear that this Bill did relate to what was not necessarily the subject-matter of a Money Bill. The Bill was really a Bill to indemnify certain Boards of Guardians who had gone beyond their legal powers; and on that ground he ventured to submit that it was, at any rate, a debatable question whether this was a Bill which could not be blocked by the Half-past 12

Rule?

MR. SPEAKER: The Bill to which the hon. Member refers deals in almost every clause with money; and because one particular clause may not refer to money, that does not bring the Bill under the Rule. Being a Money Bill, it is clearly in Order to bring it on.

MR. SHEIL said, that when the Chief Secretary for Ireland asked leave to introduce the Bill he gave the House to understand that no part of the would be devoted to the purposes of emigration.

money

MR. TREVELYAN said, he might now most positively say that neither directly nor indirectly would any of the money be applied to emigration.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

Mr. Trevelyan

MOTIONS.

GOVERNMENT BOARD (SCOT-
LAND) BILL.

I

LEAVE. FIRST READING. SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: hope, Sir, I shall not have to detain the House at this late hour (12.40) at any considerable length, while I state briefly the reasons which have induced the Government to introduce the Bill of which I have given Notice. I do not think it is necessary to go into the ancient history of this question, because most Members interested in the matter know the history as well, or better, than I do. I shall not go further back than the year 1878, when the late Government introduced a Bill for the appointment of an additional Under Secretary. That Bill was introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for SouthWest Lancashire (Sir R. Assheton Cross), and the then Lord Advocate; and I take it for granted that, though that Bill did not ultimately go forward, it indicated in the view both of the Scotch Members, and probably of the public in Scotland, and of the late Administration, that it was desirable that there should be some change at least in the former and ancient system of administration of Scotch affairs. I also gather from the proposal to have an additional Under Secretary for Scotland that it was considered by the late Administration that it was desirable, besides the able professional assistance which the Lord Advocate is always in a position to give on all legal matters, that there should also be some official dealing more especially with every question arising in Scotch administration. That is a mere speculation on the meaning of the Bill when it was introduced, for there does not seem to have been any full discussion upon it. That was the state of things when the present Administration came into Office; and when I became responsible for the conduct of Scotch affairs, I found that the same sentiment prevailed, I will not say among all, but certainly among a considerable number of, Scotch Members, that there should be some change in the arrangements with reference to Scotch Business. It is a matter of public notoriety that a Memorial signed by a large number-I forget the exact num

ber-of Scotch Members upon the sub- | land. They adopted, to a certain extent, ject of an alteration in the arrangements the plan of their Predecessors-that is to of Scotch Business has been presented to say that, though they did not create an the Prime Minister. I, for my part, never additional Secretary of State, they made felt at all averse to the consideration a very distinguished Scotchman, Lord of the question from that point of Rosebery, Under Secretary of State for view. I do not think that anybody the Home Department, with the particuwho occupies the position of Home Se- lar view of his transacting Scotch affairs. oretary will ever be grasping of busi- In my opinion that experiment was highly ness, or have a great objection to be successful. So far as I was able to obrelieved of any of the multifarious or serve it, the affairs of Scotland were multitudinous business with which that never transacted by three more able men Office is considerably oppressed. There- than Lord Rosebery as Under Secretary fore, so far as I am concerned, I ap- in the Home Office, the Lord Advocate, proached the consideration of this ques- and the Solicitor General for Scotland. tion with something more, perhaps, I venture to say from my official exthan an open mind. There was another perience, and having regard to the busicircumstance which impressed my mind ness that had to be done, there never as to the necessity and expediency of was a Department more adequately somewhat different arrangements; and managed. For my own part, if that it was the peculiar fact that, for a certain state of things could have been conperiod immediately after the election of tinued I should have been glad indeed. the present Parliament, there happened Lord Rosebery said to me-" You have to be no single Member of the House of thrown the reins of Scotch Business Commons upon either side of the House upon our necks." It is quite true, when who was capable of holding the Office I got men so competent and so converof Lord Advocate. That interposed a sant with Scotch affairs, I naturally gave considerable difficulty in the ancient them entire confidence, and I believe method of administration of Scotch af- they conducted Scotch Business exceedfairs. Of course, the Lord Advocate ingly well. I should have been exmust be a lawyer, and there was only in tremely willing that affairs should have the last Election one lawyer elected out gone on upon that footing. When I of the whole of Scotland, and that dis- say that affairs were conducted in that tinguished Gentleman, on asking re- manner, I do not at all wish to exclude election, lost his seat. That situation the responsibility of the Secretary of has occurred in former times, and very State. There will always be, and there often you may be reduced by the neces- must always be, in the transaction of sity of selection from only one Profession any Department,[some questions which into difficulties in Scotch administration. must be decided by the Chief of the I do not believe that the desire for change Department. I am bound to say the has arisen from any dissatisfaction or number of questions which have arisen discontent with the manner in which in Scotland during my administration Scotch Business has been traditionally are singularly few; but there are questransacted by the persons who have held tions such as the method of dealing with the high Office of Lord Advocate. The the crofters in the Western Highlands, successive Lord Advocates of Scotland matters which never can be decided by have conducted Scotch affairs very satis- even any Minister of a Department, but factorily to the Empire generally, and which naturally must be determined to Scotland in particular. That such a upon the responsibility of the whole sentiment did exist is shown by the Bill Government. I therefore distinguish of 1878. That sentiment exists in the between that class of questions and those minds of a good many Scotch Members, which are questions of a purely admiand I take it for granted that is the nistrative character. Well, there were, opinion of the country from which they however, difficulties in continuing a state are sent. That being the state of feeling of things which, I believe, for all pracupon the subject, Her Majesty's Go- tical purposes, was as good a state of vernment were extremely willing to do things as ever was devised, and I do not something to satisfy this sentiment; and believe that whatever you do, you will they took a course which, I believe, gave ever get the affairs of Scotland better great satisfaction to the people of Scot- conducted than they were on that system.