Oppofition benches). Sir, I repeat it, and their only crime with Gentlemen opposite seems to be, that they are the conftitutional Ministers of the country, or, as I call them, the King's own-(here another cry of hear! hear! from the fame quarter-but, Sir, Irepeat this fentiment, they are the King's conftitutional Minifters, and they moreover, I repeat it (notwithstanding infinuations to the contrary) enjoy the confidence of the good people of England. Look to the votes of this Houfe, that is the fenfe of the kingdom, the united conftitutional fenfe, deny it who can. Upon the whole, Sir, the advice I fhall give the right hon. Gentleman is, that confidering the bad foundation he has to go upon, and the very weak arguments of his fupporters, he will get up and fay (to fave his own credit) that he is completely misinformed and mistaken as to the business, and beg leave to withdraw the motion.

Captain Markham rofe, and began by faying, that it appeared neceffary for him to clear up fome mistakes or mifreprefentations which originated in the course of the debate. The reason for having ftated the number of feamen in the month of December laft, in preference to any other month, was, that the regular returns had been made to the Admiralty at that period. There were then 76,054 feamen on board his Majefty's navy. Since the month of December no less than 6,441 had been added, and the return of marines was 15,679. All these added together made a total of 98,174 men. Those returns were to be found in the Admiralty, and had no connection with the Navy Office. There were no lefs than 19 floops of war contracted for, and were to be built in the month of November laft, and there were very fufficient reafons for gun boats having been ordered previous to the contractors completing the floops. It was not from an idea that these would be immediately required, but in order to be in readiness for particular purposes. As to the floops not having been built fooner than in three months, he could confidently ftate that no difadvantage would refult from that circumftance. It would have been very injudicious to build them in a hurry, or of raw or green wood, which always proved leaky; and he did not imagine that Bonaparte's gun boats would be found, on trial, to anfwer his purpose for a fimilar reafon. He would rather have Gentlemen be inclined to concealment, than to divulge any circumstances which might prove injurious to the country. It would be neceffary, in the first place, to have on hand a great stock of

timber,

timber, were hips to be built in merchants' yards. Thofe vellels which were built in the King's yards were more fubftantially built than others. He meant nothing perfonal against any individual, when he faid, however, that in his opinion a proper ufe had never been made of fhipwrights in this country. The fhips built in the King's yards, were whole fome and found for the men to live in; thofe built elfewhere, were generally found to get what is called the dry rot; they inclined the men to fevers, and were foon rendered unferviceable. He might even fay, that thofe fhips which were built in merchants' yards, had been the ruin of the navy. He did not know exactly what the hon. Admiral meant, by alluding to 19 fail being taken when under convoy; he was not aware of any fuch thing having ever happened. On the whole, in confidering the nature of the prefent motions, he, for his part, muft fay, that perfonal motives were to be prefumed. If the right hon. Gentleman, or any other perfon, had any fixed and determinate charge to bring forward against the noble Lord who had the direction of the naval department, he would with rather that they should ftate their charges directly and openly against him, than go about it in the inanner they seemed inclined to do.

Sir William Curtis expreffed himself to be alfo at a lofs to know what convoy the hon. Admiral had alluded to in the courfe of his speech; because he too might perhaps have had an unlucky hit among the number. He begged to know where the right hon. Gentleman would with to place his gun-. boats, could a greater number be immediately procured, They were only fit for affembling to protect the coast, and he could venture to fay, that merchants' veffels were never so well protected as at the prefent moment. In the year 1793, the number of veffels taken by the enemy was 418; in 1794, they were 484; in 1795, 493; and in 1796, there were no lefs than 793 vellels of various defcriptions loft.

not know what Gentlemen would with to have, when we had at prefent fleets every where. For his part, after having heard the difcuffion which had taken place on this fubject, he could venture to fay, that 'he thould that night repofe upon his pillow with a greater degree of fatisfaction than he could have done, had not the conduct of Lord St. Vincent been called in question by the prefent motion.

Mr. Courtenay faid, it was highly gratifying to obferve, that every one who had spoken of the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty, had done fo in terms that implied there VOL. II. 1803-4. could

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could be no doubt what would be the termination of any inquiry that might be inftituted. The prefent question had led to a difcuffion which convinced every Gentleman of the firm bafis on which the fecurity of the country repofed. As long as eloquence shall confift in correctnefs of judgment, fimplicity and truth, it will be admitted that the gallant Admiral under the gallery (Sir Edward Pellew) had defended Lord St. Vincent with fome of thofe rhetorical powers for which feamen are not always diftinguished. He was one of those who confidered, that of all others, a profeffional man was the most suited for the high ftation occupied by Lerd St. Vincent; and he deemed it as abfurd to place a perfon in different habits in that fituation, as to advance a failor or a foldier to the higheft rank in the courts of British ju ifprudence. On every ground, whether he regarded the character of the noble Lord or the public welfare, he confidered the prefent motion fit to be fupported.

Mr. Burroughs obferved, that it was contended by many Gentlemen, that the character of the First Lord of the Admiralty was a fufficient answer to the inquiries which were the object of the prefent motion. Did Gentlemen mean to fay, that the right hon. Gentleman, who had fo long directed the councils of the ftate, had no character and no opinions which ought to be regarded? It was, perhaps, his own private fentiments, that the war of France is not against our navy, but against our finances; but if there be any negie&t in the naval department, no doubt can be entertained but they will avail themselves of it. It is therefore of the highest importance, not only that the prefent force may be competent, but that it may be continued in a condition adequate to the complete defence of the country. On thefe grounds, he confidered the production of every document which could give fatisfaction on this fubject, prudent and neceifary.

Mr. Fonblanque, having flated that he was in general favourable to inquiry into the conduct of public departments, expreffed his anxiety that the grounds, of his oppofing the motions then under difcuffion fhould be diftin&tly understood, and as he was aware of the impatience of the Houfe to proceed to a divifion, he would be as thort as poffible in ftating thofe grounds. The noble and gallant Earl at the head of the Admiralty, had fo well earned the confidence of the country, that up to a certain period all parties were unanimous in his praife;, but a queftion has now arifen, whether

: he

he had not loft in council a portion of that confidence. To meet this doubt, he thought that it was enough to prove that the naval force of the country was fully adequate to the exigence of the crifis formidable as it is; and in order to afford the Houfe the means of judging, whether fuch was the state of actual naval preparation, certain papers had been moved for, to the production of which, his Majefty's Minifters had most readily confented. But other papers were moved for, the propriety of producing which, might be confidered as at least doubtful, because no groundwork had been laid to thew their importance to any purpofe of cenfure of the Board of Adiniralty; for if the naval force of the country were fufficient to cope with the dangers which threatened it, whether conftituted of this or that defcription of armed veffels, or whether fuch force was conftruded in the royal yards, or by contract in the merchants' yards, were points of very little importance; but if from the papers agreed to be produced, instead of their proving an adequacy of force, the contrary should appear, it would then certainly be proper, and the duty of the Houfe, to inquire what were the refources of the country, and why they had not been made fully available? Here the refponfibility of the Admiralty would indeed artach, and unless the noble Earl could fhew that the means of defence were adequate, he muft, with all his claims upon his country's gratitude, fubmit to the confequences of that refponsibility which the conftitution attaches to his station; but until it appeared that the means of defence which he had provided were inadequate to the danger of the country, it were to fuppofe an infufficiency in the coun cil and exertions of that noble and gallant Earl, which candour would not prefume, and at which public gratitude would revolt. But the eulogies upon the claims of the noble Lord are almoft general, and the motion is fupported by fome, upon the principle that the character of the noble Earl will acquire additional luftre if poffible from the result of inquiry. The extreme refinements of friendship are not perceptible to common minds; and without hazarding an opinion upon this fpecies of refinement which deprives eftablished character of the privilege of repelling by its immediate influence trifling, vexatious, or malicious charges, it becomes material to confi der how they who have voted for the measure of inquiry, upon the conviction that the refult of fuch inquiry will be honourable to the party whofe conduct is the fubject of it, are to bing to that inquiry the difpaffionate mind which is effential

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to a due refult from it.-Mr. Pitt having by gefture manifested that he had not propofed inquiry, Mr. Fonblanque remarked that it was not his purpofe to miftate, and he thould be really happy to find that he had mifunderstood the right hon. Gentleman; he would therefore flate what he understood to be the ulterior purpose of the right hon. Gentleman, namely, to propose an addrefs to his Majefty.—Mr. Pitt having here fignified that fuch was his communication of purpose, Mr. Fonblanque remarked that he had not mifunderstood: the right hon. Gentleman, ftill lefs miftated him, for fuch an addrefs must neceffarily be preceded by inquiry. Mr. Fonblanque concluded by flating, that he conceived it to be the duty of Parliament to be affured that the national defence was equal to the national danger, and that if the refources of the country were neglected or mifapplied, it was the duty of Parliament to interpofe; but that previously to any inquiry into the conduct of any department immediately connected with the public fecurity, it ought to appear that the public fecurity was not adequately provided for, or the means of obtaining fuch information were withheld; and that though it fhould appear that the means of defence were adequate to the danger, if further means could be devised, or more efficient or lefs chargeable ones be fubftituted, that he confidered it to be at once the right and duty of Members to fuggeft or propose them; but that as the refult must be matter of choice, the circumftance of their not having been previously adopted could not be made a ground of cenfure.

Mr. Pitt-I fhould have expected that the obfervations of an hon. and learned Gentleman near me, would have been confidered decifive as to the merits of the prefent queftion. We are called upon, fay the Minifters, to refufe certain papers, becaufe they will lead to inquiry. What is that but to fay, that when full information is afforded, doubts must rest upon the minds of the Members of this House, which can alone be removed by serious investigation? These doubts must be felt on the most important fubject; whether the naval force, in its prefent ftate, be competent to the national fecurity; and if fuch preparations are making as will in future place it on a footing adequate to meet the growing exigencies for the public defence. But thefe documents, which they acknowledge would create this uncertainty, are not to be fupplied, and Parliament is to be left in utter ignorance of theie important matters, left the people fhould fuppofe there is danger. This is not to claim' confidence in Lord St. Vincent, it is to derogate from his reputation; for

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