Mr. Pitt faid, his propofition was to take officers from the half-pay, where they were ufelefs, and to make them ufeful by contributing to difcipline volunteer corps.

Mr. W. Wynne deprecated the economy of Minifters, as its only object was to diminish thofe expences which were to come before Parliament, whilft a greater weight fell upon the people.

Mr. Spencer Stanhope adverted to the erection of beacons, and inftanced ope in the Weft Riding of Yorkshire, guarded by four perfons, one of whom had only one leg, another had only one arm, the third had loft the roof of his mouth, and the fourth was notoriously drunken, and each of these was paid half-a-guinea per day.

Mr. Secretary Yorke faid, that beacons had been erected in the West Riding of Yorkshire without confulting the General of the diftrict, Lord Mulgrave.

Mr. Spencer Stanhope faid, they were erected by order of

the General of the district..

Mr. Secretary Yorke replied, that he had understood the

contrary.

After fome further obfervations from Lord Temple, Sir W. Milner, Sir Henry Mildmay, and other Members, the claufe was agreed to.

On the clause relating to the recovery of fines and penalties,

Mr. Pitt fuggefted that it would be better to give an option in cafe of non-payment, either to levy the fine by dif trefs, or to inflict imprisonment for two or three days or a week, as the diftrefs might be injurious to the family of the perfon diftreffed upon.

Mr. G. Vanfittart was for extending the imprisonment to a fortnight.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought the imprison. mént of the individual would be more injurious to his family than levying the fine by diftrefs.

Mr. Pitt explained, that the idea was, to veft a difcretionary power in the magiftrate, to imprifon, fuppofe for a week, in the default of diftrefs.

Sir R. Buxton strongly recommended the allowing a certain number of days, at the expiration of which, if the penalties were not paid, the magiftrate fhould have the power of committing in the cafe of default.

Mr. Sturgels Bourne contended, that the optional power propofed to be given to the magiftrate, proceeded on the

moft

most humane and liberal principle that it was poffible to introduce into a cafe of pecuniary penalty.

Mr. Burland propofed the introduction of a claufe, in fubftance enacting, that in cafe of a refufal or neglect to pay the fine after a given number of days (five was propofed in the first instance), it fhould then be lawful for the magiftrate to commit, &c.

Mr. Hobhouse Spoke in fupport of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's idea in favour of the mode of diftrefs, as imprifonment would evidently prevent the individual from earning the accustomed provifion for his family.

Mr. Whitbread made a variety of obfervations on the part of the bill under difcuffion: he was inclined to make the opulent private pay in his purfe; but would not refort to imprisonment except where it was indifpenfably necessary, The proceeding of diftrefs he thought one of extreme oppreffion; but as fome principle of compulfion muft obtain, he thought the option of diftrefs or imprisonment fhould be given. With respect to the application of these penalties, they were to go to the common funds of the different corps for defraying the neceffary expences, &c. But in obferving upon this point, he must repeat what he had faid thereon an a former occafion; he thought it would be a founder and more manly policy to come forward at once and provide for the payment of fuch expences out of the public purse; as he predicted, for want of certain and unfailing funds, the greater number of the corps would fall to pieces and ceafe to exift. This he faid, to a certain degree, was exemplified by the inftance of one of the City corps, where, out of the requifute fum of about 11,000l. he understood 7 or 8000l. or fome very large fum, remained due. Several corps were deftitute of the most neceffary articles. It was now of little confequence whether the plan of fubfcriptions was originally a wife meafure; he thought them, now at leaft, very improper. They were providing for a permanent fyftem in the bill. As that was the cafe, let them do it with their eyes open, let them not blink the genuine question; they fhould contemplate the danger as it ought to be viewed. There were many articles of expence abfolutely neceffary to be incurred in respect of the volunteer corps: keeping the arms clean and in repair was one of the principal items; the payment of the drummers was another indifpenfable requifite: he wished to know whether that was to be provided for out of any particular fund?

There

There had been more money thrown away in refpect of the volunteers fince their inftitution than would fet on foot an immenfe regular force: let the private fubfcriptions and annual contributions be calculated, and fee what an immenfe aggregate they would amount to! The prefent fyftem was one of the most profufe and extravagant that was ever yet broached.

One or two Members rofe, and expreffed their opinion that what Mr. Whitbread was advancing was not in order.

Mr. Whitbread refumed. What he had faid was strictly in order, and advanced then with a view to fave the time of the Houfe; the penalties were applicable to the funds, his obfervations were therefore in order. As to the question, he reprobated the utter want of economy in the system. A large regular force might have over and over again been put in activity for lefs money. In procefs of time the prefent fources would fail; individuals would every year become more weary or lefs able to pay the contributions. Speaking more immediately to the point in queftion, were the alternative of imprifoninent refolved on, he fhould prefer the shortest poffible period.

Mr. Vaughan thought it incumbent on him to explain,that of the corps which he conceived the hon. Gentleman to allude to, he was himself a Member; that fo far from the corps being in debt, it poffeffed confiderable funds; and that fo far from being difcontented, they were the first to offer permanent service.

Mr. Secretary Yorke propofed the introduction of fome words as an amendment of the claufe in question.

Mr. H. Lafcelles thought that the accumulation of fines fhould be prevented, as they might run up to an amount that might impede the refignation of a member when he should fo determine.

Mr. Pitt referred the hon. Member to a particular part of the claufe, where the cafe was provided for by the words. Mr. Rofe expreffed his opinion, that the magiflrate should be vefted with the power of committing to the nearest place of confinement.

The claufe, as amended, was then agreed to.

Some difcuffion then took place, refpecting a fubfequent provifion in the bill, fimilar to the preceding one in fome of its effects, but principally affecting a fuperior clafs of in-dividuals. The Gentlemen who delivered their opinions were principally Meffrs. Whitbread, Curwen, Secretary

Yorke,

Yorke, Bragge, Thompson, and Wm. Dundas. It was contended on the part of thofe who fupported the bill, that those perfons who were able to pay, but who from obftinacy, or other motives, did not choofe to pay, fhould be decidedly compellable; and with respect to thofe, the option of distress or imprisonment was propofed to be left.

Mr. Fox, objected to the principle, as regulated by the provifions of the bill. Though the members had agreed to the payment of certain fines, they had no idea of eventually incurring fo fevere a punishment; by fuch a regulation, the volunteer was put in a different fituation from that in which he confidered himfelf, when making his agreement.

Mr. W. Dundas obferved that if the volunteer agreed bona fide to pay certain fines, he was bound to make them good, or he had agreed to nothing.

Mr. Pitt obferved, that a degree of compulfion in the cafe under difcuffion was evidently neceffary. They fhould recollect that the right of the volunteer to refign was admitted, in cafe he was not fatisfied with the regulations.-The difcipline of the corps was furely neceffary to be preferved; and farther the fines arofe out of regulations agreed to by the individuals themfelves. The principle was not new to this act. In the original act a provifion to that effect obtained, but it was not modified by the optional power. The points at iffue refolved into two queftions: the firft, whether in default of diftrefs, proceedings fhould be had against the perfon; the latter was certainly one in analogy to the law of the country: and the fecond, which involved the only new point, was, whether, an alternative of fubjecting the individual to imprifonment fhould be allowed; and that this was the more lenient of the two he thought had been clearly established.After confidering the topic a little further, he expreffed his concurrence in the regulation for allowing the optional power.

Some further claufes and provifions of the bill were then agreed to without obfervation, when it was agreed to report progrefs, and afk leave to fit again.

The Houfe then refumed, and the Committee were ordered to fit again the next day.

Mr. Alexander obtained leave to bring in a bill to indem nify all perfons concerned in iffuing or carrying into effect the orders of council refpecting the importation of certain goods in neutral hips from America.

The other orders of the day were then difpofed of, and at. half paft eleven o'clock the Houfe adjourned.

HOUSE

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

SATURDAY, MARCH 10.

The Dublin police bill was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time.

A new writ was ordered for Preston, in the room of John Horrocks, Efq. deceased.

Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for going into a Committee on the Irish duties bill.

The order having been read,

Mr. Corry obferved, that before he made any further motion upon this fubject he wished to fay a few words. In the courfe of the debate of the preceding day, fome doubt had been thrown out, that the bill before the Houfe was one that affected the interefts of the Crown, and that therefore the Royal affent ought to have been fignified. He was ready at that time, and he was ready now, if it were proper, to fhew that the bill was conformable to the precedents of the Parliament of Ireland. He alfo understood, though on this point he could not fpeak fo pofitively, that it was not without precedent in the Parliament of Great Britain before the union; and in the Imperial Parliament, fince the union, there were precedents, viz. the three different acts which had paffed relative to thefe duties; it was true they were only annual bills, and therefore he did not rely entirely upon them. But though there were precedents of that nature, if it could enter into the imagination of any man that this meafure trenched upon any conftitutional principle, he certainly would be the laft man to take advantage of them. As there had not been fufficient time however, fince the doubts had been thrown out, to afcertain how the principle ftood affected by this proceeding, he should, in order that full time might be given for confideration, move to poftpone the Committee till Monday.

Mr. Fofter faid, that the great doubts and difficulties which had arifen in his mind upon the fubject were founded upon the circumftance of this bill being perpetual, therefore he did not conceive that annual bills could be confidered as any precedent.

The motion was then agreed to.

The Committee on the Irish countervailing duty bill was put off till Monday.

The Irish malt bill was read a fecond time, and committed for Monday.

VOL. II. 1803-4.

E

Mr.