to was the following: New Forest, New | out manfully, as he always did, upon this Park, and Parkhurst Forest; Dean Forest, question. He hoped that there would be and High Meadow Woods; Bere Forest, a searching inquiry into this matter; but, Delamere Forest, Whittlewood Forest, Sal- for God's sake, let them have no Commiscey Forest; Wychwood Forest; Hainault, sioners to discharge such a duty. He had or Waltham Forest; Alice Holt and Wool- no hesitation in saying that if a portion of mer Forests; Eltham Woods, and Chop- these lands were brought into the market, well Woods--the last being a somewhat they would realise a sum not less than ominous name. When he came to see how 600,000l., and if that were added to the these forests were managed, he must say sum of 1,000,000l., which he had already he was not surprised that in the article shown could be saved, they had a round Crown lands the revenue had fallen from sum of nearly 1,600,000l., the exact amount 120,000l. to 60,000l. per annum. of the window-tax. He would call the attention of the noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) to the miasma which prevailed in this great uncultivated waste of land, which stretched like a cloaca maxima over the country, spreading disease and death among the people: and he thought that even in this point of view the subject was not unworthy the attention of the noble Lord, who was particularly the Minister for public health. It was his duty again to warn the noble Lord that a Sanitary Bill could not possibly give satisfaction in this country so long as this window-duty was kept up, which pressed so heavily on the working and middle classes of England. He recollected that when he first brought forward this subject, he was met by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn) with the question, whether he was able to produce any sanitary report bearing upon the point. He had sanitary reports in his possession which bore strongly upon the question. In a report from North Shields, he found it stated that the number of windows was greatly diminished by the window-tax, and that arrangements for ventilation were thereby interfered with. Next, with regard to Sunderland, the committee of Sunderland stated it was their unanimous opinion that the blockading of windows, through the anxiety of owners of houses to escape payment of the tax, had very greatly aggravated, and, in the opinion of the committee, had in some instances been the primary cause of sickness and mortality. He next called attention to the statements made on the subject by Dr. Reid, and also by Mr. Martin, one of the Health of Towns Commissioners sent round to inquire into those abuses. Dr. Reid had given a strong opinion as to the effect of the tax in limiting the number of windows among the dwellings of the poor; and Mr. Martin had also pointed out, in his report, how much it interfered to keep out light and air from the houses of all classes by the blocking up of windows. He, for one,

He had in his hand a return relative to the New Forest, which might be taken as a specimen of all the others. These lands were all lying waste-complete deserts without a single plough turning up an acre of land. There was a return ordered of the amount of timber supplied for the Navy; but from the year 1840, down to 1847, the return was uniformly nil. Then, when he looked at the income and expenditure, he found that the income in 1821 was 17,5621. 10s. 6d., but that it had diminished in 1847 to 9,0267. In 1821, the expenditure was 8,1657.; and in 1847 it had increased to 10,4951., being 1,000l. more than the income in that year. There was a decrease in every item except the article fat bucks. That article was the exception. He congratulated the House that a considerable increase had taken place in the number of fat bucks furnishing official venison; between 1844 and 1846 the mortality amongst the fat bucks had been doubled, according to the return he held in his hand, printed by authority of Parliament. Then there was such a number of people to manage these forests these luxuries so carefully preserved. There were for the New Forest, one lord-warden, thirteen masterkeepers, including several Members of Parliament; four verderers, two rangers, one bow-bearer, one lord-warden's steward, one deputy-surveyor, one assistant-deputy, eleven regarders, fourteen groomkeepers, &c. Among other expenses, he found that a dinner, at the public expense, was provided for the verderers, and other officers, on the 14th of September of each year; and that another dinner was given to about fifty other people connected with the forest. Now, he asked if it was not contemptible to keep up such a state of things as this? [Colonel SIBTHORP: Hear!] He was glad to hear that cheer from his gallant Friend, and he knew that he would be prepared to do his duty, and to speak

"O Lord of light and air, O King, O Father, hear my humble prayer, Dispel this cloud-the light of heaven restore— Grant us to see, and England asks no more; If we must perish-we'll thy will obey, But let us perish in the light of day." The noble Lord concluded by moving— "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the total repeal of the Window Tax.

could not be indifferent to the blocking up | spirited neighbours in France, let him but of windows that was stifling the manly hoist the signal "that England expects spirit of the working classes in the nor- every man to do his duty," and it will be thern parts of the kingdom, because he well, widely, and cheerfully obeyed. He trusted he never should forget that it was appealed to the sympathy of the noble an inhabitant of this very town (Sunder-Lord-to the sympathy of his Irish supland) James Crawford by name, who, when porters: when Ireland was in distress, the an ancestor of his had his colours seven inhabitants of Great Britain did not grudge times shot away, actually clambered up them the money-the poorest of his counthe stump of the top-gallant-mast head of trymen contributed his mite, in the shape the Venerable, on the 11th of October, of window-tax, and every other tax, to that 1797, with a hammer in his hand, and unparalleled sum which our generosity has nailed up the colours of England in proud nearly ruined us by giving. And, lastly, defiance of a threatened invasion. Invade he ventured to make an appeal to that England, indeed! Who talked of appre- Divine Providence, which in creating light hensions of a threatened invasion? Was and air, before it created either food or it a Russell-a descendant of the Admiral man, and which by affording that light Russell who fought at La Hogue, in the and air in unlimited quantities, has proved presence of an exiled monarch, who had that, except every other luxury in the inadvertently exclaimed, "None but my country is taxed beyond endurance, it is English subjects could board in that gal- almost sacrilege for any man to continue lant style?" Invade England indeed! Is those cruel impolitic taxes which he had this the country that successfully with- endeavoured to denounce. stood the Spanish Armada-the Bourbon compact-Napoleon in the zenith of his power, and which till last week was the envy and admiration of the world? Is this the land that produced those gallant crews who mounted the rigging and cheered to a man, on going into action at the Nile and Trafalgar, because they had found their enemy? Is this the country that has rendered illustrious every cape on the conMR. HUME seconded the Motion. It tinent, from Trafalgar and St. Vincent, as was a rule laid down by all political econofar northward as Camperdown; and almost mists, that that tax which was subject to every shoal amongst which our admirals the greatest amount of exceptions was the have been forced to run, in order to find worst that could be imposed. The right those who are now represented as being, hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), two Sessions with a fleet numerically far inferior to ours, ago, proposed the abolition of the auction about to menace England with a foreign duties; mentioning as a specimen of the invasion? For one, he had no fear of there law, that the amount received was the exever being a naval battle fought so near ception to the amount collected. Only our own coast as to deserve the name of 201. out of 100l. collected, he believed, the battle of Flamborough Head, or the reached the Exchequer. The right hon. battle of Spithead. He would exhort the Baronet showed that there were eighteen noble Lord he hoped he did not do so in different kinds of property exempted from vain-to forget his apprehensions and re- this tax. What was the case of the wincollect his principles-the principles of re- dow-tax? In the first place, Ireland paid form and retrenchment, of which he had no part of it. It was a tax upon England so long been the consistent and able leader; and Scotland alone, and whilst we had to pay those principles had placed him in power-additional taxes for the support of Ireland, and in a position to husband the resources of the middle and working classes of England against the day of trial. Let him increase the comforts of English homes by diminishing in time of peace the taxes on light and air. Let him give his countrymen something to fight for, and if, which God avert, war should ever again be proclaimed between this country and our high

He

that country was exempted from this tax. That of itself ought to be a strong reason for its repeal. It appeared also that houses below a certain rate were exempted. believed that about three-fourths of the houses were free. Did not that show that it must be a grievous tax to call for all these exemptions? When the House interfered by their taxation with the health

and comfort of the people, the result must | ment offices ought to be made to pay. The necessarily be disastrous. The time was gentlemen who were revelling in Downingcome when there must be a reform in our street, whose houses were furnished, for system of taxation. He considered this to aught he knew, out of the secret service be one of the most mischievous of taxes; fund, and who gave dinner after dinner to and one of the grounds for his seconding each other, ought to be made to pay. He the Motion of the noble Lord was that he would have this secret service fund exammight show the country, by the division ined into also. The very word "secret" which would take place upon it, who were, carried with it a suspicion that something and who were not, friends of the poor. He was going on that ought not to go on. wanted to see how those hon. Members He should not be surprised to hear that would vote who were usually loud in their some of it had gone to the case of Dr. desire for the improvement of the moral Hampden. He repeated that he would and religious character of the country, for cordially support the noble Lord in his he held that until you could place the mass present Motion, for he considered it as at of the people in an adequate state of phy- present levied to be a disgraceful, dirty, sical comfort, a large portion of the expen- shabby, and unconstitutional mode of raisditure for moral and religious purposes ing money. would be utterly lost. He agreed with the noble Lord that the Royal forests were a burden to this country, and ought to be sold. It was the duty of the House, when the trappings of Royalty became expensive and pressed upon the wants of the community, to take measures for abridging them. He felt very serious on this point; and he assured the House that these were not the times for trifling on such subjects. The House ought to look at the situation of the mass of the people, and try to reduce their burdens to an extent which would afford them real relief. Taking off a trifle here and a trifle there, would not answer the purpose. The public expected greater relief, and they looked to the Government to give it to them. He hoped the division to-night would show that a large portion of the House was favourable to the repeal of the tax then under consideration.

COLONEL SIBTHORP had sincere gratification in supporting the Motion of the noble Lord, and he cordially thanked him for the manly course he had taken in opposition to the Ministry. He fully agreed with the noble Lord, that if they were to institute a searching inquiry into the abuses of their expenditure, retrenchments might be effected to an extent that would enable them to get rid of this and many other taxes. But this would be attended with considerable trouble and inconvenience, and the Government would of course resist it. There was a total indifference on the part of Government as to what became of the people, so long as they filled their own pockets and enjoyed their own comfort. With respect to the window-tax, if it was to be maintained, it ought not to be put upon the dwellings of the poor, but upon the mansions of the rich. The Govern

SIR DE LACY EVANS wished to say a very few words in support of the present Motion, for he felt it was unnecessary to do more after the able speeches made by the noble Lord on this subject, not only then but on former occasions; and more especially as the unjust and oppressive nature of the tax was so self-evident. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had not yet risen; but he (Sir De Lacy Evans) had listened to his predecessors on former occasions, and he had never heard from them anything approaching to vindication of the justice of this tax. He knew very well that it was often alleged, in a vague and general way, that there was no tax whatsoever but some particular grievance or objection might be brought against it. But he took leave to say that this did not apply to the present case-for whether they looked at it individually or generally, it was absolutely indefensible. The humbler classes were made to pay at the rate of 20 or 30 per cent, while the opulent classes paid only 1, 14, 24, or 3 per cent. Could such a tax as that be defended? He agreed with the noble Lord regarding the Royal forests. The country derived no sort of advantage from them whatsoever. Some 800 or 500 years ago they were a luxury to the Monarch; but for hundreds of years they had been merely deserts, as the noble Lord had said, except in regard to furnishing some snug berths for members of the aristocracy and the humbler supporters of the Governments which had succeeded each other from time to time in this country. Among the items of expenditure brought forward by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) to show the necessity of increased taxation, were the expenses of the Caffre war; but it ought to be remembered

that this item appeared only for the pre- | was called upon unwillingly to propose to sent year, and was not likely to be repeated. the House additional taxation to the amount He firmly believed that the people of this country, notwithstanding the temporary distress-for temporary he believed it to be-which pressed upon the community, and which at present threw a gloom upon the operations of commerce as well as other matters he believed that notwithstanding these circumstances the great body of the people were perfectly willing to contribute to the necessary expenses of Government; and that they were also capable of supply. ing the means of those expenses. It was not the amount of these expenses which created the annoyance and irritation on the mind of the public, so much as the unjust and unequal distribution of the taxes. Nothing had so much tended to produce the French revolution--he spoke of the first revolution, not of the present one-as the conviction on the part of the people that their fiscal burdens were unjustly and unequally distributed. He would suggest a small addition to the budget for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer he meant the probate duty on real property. There was scarcely any item of taxation, the omission of which had had a stronger effect on the feelings of the people than this. It was felt to be unjust that the hardlyearned produce of industry should repeatedly and constantly, and in the small amounts in which it was realised, be subjected to a heavy probate duty, while the transmission of the property of the great and wealthy paid no tax of a similar naHe trusted that this subject would receive the early and serious attention of Government.

ture.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I don't know that the office which I have the honour-however unworthily to fill, is at any time remarkably agreeable. It is certainly, however, as disagreeable an office as any one can possibly occupy when the country is suffering distress, and when it is my painful duty-however reluctantly to increase taxation. On the present occasion I have another painful duty to discharge in resisting the remission of a tax which has been described to-night in no very measured terms as odious and vexatious. I confess that I think that the proposition to repeal the window-tax, or, indeed, any tax at present, was sufficiently answered by the speech of my noble Friend (Lord John Russell) the other night. When my noble Friend

of 3,000,000l., I think it would be unwise if we were to part with the window-tax. There is an old fable, that we can bear the burdens we have been accustomed to more easily than we can bear the imposition of new burdens; and surely those who are anxious to avoid fresh taxation can hardly ask us, in our present circumstances, to give up a tax which yields about 1,600,000l. or 1,700,000. a year. When I look at the Notice-paper, I find various hon. Members struggling for the revision of taxation; but they are not all of them quite so kind as my noble Friend in proposing a substitute. But I must say, when my noble Friend accuses us of being spendthrifts, that his proposal of disposing of our capital (by the sale of the Royal forests) is by no means the most thrifty mode of dealing with our property. I think it right also to state, that the offices in connexion with the Royal forests to which the noble Lord referred, are mere honorary appointments. The House would naturally suppose, from the statement of the noble Lord, that these great personages were a heavy charge upon the public revenue; whereas he might have told the House that the return of their emoluments, like the timber to which he referred, was-nil. With regard to timber for the Royal Navy, the noble Lord supposes these forests are of no use whatever; but the fact is, that at the present time, when the whole world is open to us, timber is imported from abroad. The chief expense incurred is in enclosing and protecting those plantations, which will hereafter, as in former days, insure a good supply for the Navy when foreign timber may not be so accessible. This is the object for which the forests are kept up, not to be useless appendages of Royalty, as the noble Lord described them. The noble Lord now proposes to repeal the window duties; and the third Motion, lower on the Notice-paper, to be brought forward tonight by an hon. Friend of mine (Mr. Ewart), contemplates the abolition of the excise duties on paper, soap, and bricks, and of the duties on butter and cheese, and the reduction of the duties on tea, tobacco, and wine. Now, really, Sir, in the present state of our finances, these propositions are not a little serious. I must mention the produce of these various duties. The window duties and those on paper, soap, bricks, butter and cheese, yield to the revenue in round numbers

4,000,000l. a year. The usual proposition | window duty; 3,000,000 being exempt. for reducing the duty on tea is from What houses are exempt? Not those of 2s. 1 d. to 1s., on wine to 2s. 6d. per the nobility and gentry, but the smallest gallon, and on tobacco from 3s. to 1s. per description of houses occupied from one pound. The produce of these duties is end of the country to the other by the poorupwards of 11,000,000l., and taking est classes. I don't mean to say that there the proposed reduction to be about one- are not houses with fewer than eight winhalf, it would occasion a loss of reve- dows inhabited by persons of property; it nue of more than 5,000,000l.; to which is impossible to deal with two or three exwe must add the 4,000,000l. of loss from ceptional cases. The lower class of houses, the repeal of the first-named duties, making in which the poor reside, are exempt from in all a sacrifice of no less than 9,000,000l. this tax; therefore, to call it a tax imI appeal to the common sense of hon. posed by the wealthy on the poor is a most Members whether in the present state of extraordinary perversion of the real facts our finances, the proposal now submitted, of the case. The exceptions are almost and the others about to be submitted by invariably in favour of persons who do not my hon. Friend (Mr. Ewart), are practi- beneficially occupy the houses. My hon. and cable, or such as any Government could gallant relative (Col. Sibthorp) would put think of acceeding to? My hon. Friend the window-tax on public offices; but what the Member for Dumfries has, to be sure, would the public gain by that? I should a proposition to substitute for the duties he have to propose, in the Miscellaneous Eswould reduce and repeal, a system of direct timates, a sum of money to pay a tax on taxation on realised property; that is, on the windows of the Treasury, where the all property under schedules A and C, now clerks sit at their duty; we should thus be producing about 3,000,000l. In order, paying from one hand to another; nothing therefore, to obtain an amount equal to could result from such a ceremony but inwhat it is proposed to give up, the hon. convenience, and possibly some loss in the Gentleman must quadruple the present transfer. To suppose that the public would amount of taxation on these two sche- gain by the process, is the most preposterdules a proposition which even those most ous idea ever propounded by my hon. and enamoured of a tax on realised property gallant relative. The noble Lord talked may well view with alarm. Objections of the exemption of agricultural houses; have been urged to the mode in which but all buildings occupied for the purposes the window duties are levied. Sir, when of trade and manufacture are also exempt it is said that this is one of those taxes from the window-tax. That, again, is an which exclusively press on the poor, I exemption in favour of the industrious must take the liberty of altogether deny- classes: those only pay who inhabit dwelling the statement. We have been con- ing-houses with eight windows or upwards. stantly told during the last four or five The noble Lord also spoke of the exyears by those who seek the repeal of traordinary amount raised on the lower duties most onerous to the humbler classes, description and the small amount raised and I admit there is considerable truth in on the higher class of houses. Why is the argument, that the most advantageous it so? Because the lower class is greatmode of benefiting the poor is to take off ly more numerous. Of the 500,000 houses the taxes on corn and the necessaries of in the kingdom subject to the tax, there life, and to impose direct taxation, which are 314,000 with fifteen windows and unis conceived to press more on the richer der. If you mean to tax only the large classes; and yet we have heard to-night houses of the rich, you will have very little Gentlemen who have always advocated produce from your taxation. If it be nethis course insist that the window duty, cessary to raise a large amount of taxawhich comes nearer to a property-tax than tion, you must levy it on a large number any other now existing in the country, of persons. If you confine your tax to a should be remitted for the benefit of the small number at the top of the tree, the poorer classes of the community. The produce of it will be very small, even if hon. Member for Montrose objects to you increase your impost to confiscation. the tax because there are so many exemp- The noble Lord, speaking on the subject tions. What are those exemptions? They of the window duties, referred to the arguare invariably in favour of the poorer ments urged in 1833 in favour of the reorders. Speaking generally, of 3,500,000 peal of the house-tax, as if that pressed houses, only 500,000 are subject to the most heavily on the richer portion of the