(Mr. Anstey) may be much better attained position of my noble Friend the Secreby not offering obstruction to the public tary of State for Foreign Affairs-bebusiness of the House. I should recom- cause, disguise it as you will, it comes to mend that the hon. and learned Member this, that an hon. and learned Member of would not persist in a course of that kind. Parliament, using his right as a repreAt the same time, I must say that, as a sentative of the people, sent here by his Member of Parliament, I think he has a constituents, does feel it to be his duty most perfect and most undoubted right to bring a direct and distinct charge to make the Motion of which he has against a Minister of the Crown-whatgiven notice; and I think that we are all ever may be our impressions upon this bound, and most of all the Government, charge, I say that my hon. and learned and more than all my noble Friend the Friend has a perfect right to bring it under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs- the notice of the House; and I must say I think that we are all bound to see that that I think that a charge against the the hon. Member for Youghal has a fair conduct of a Minister of the Crown ought and impartial hearing; because, however not to be endeavoured to be got rid of by unpopular this Motion may be in the House any undue means, such as those that were (and I think it is vain to disguise from the resorted to on Tuesday night last. It hon. and learned Gentleman that it is so), must surely always be desired that fair however much people may have adopted play should be done to every man, whether preconceived notions upon the subject, I am he be an accuser or a defender-if he sure that a thorough discussion is necessary be a Member of the Opposition, or a Minisin order to set the matter at rest. It is not ter of the Crown; and I will say this, that for me to suggest any ideas to my noble however desirous I might have been to Friend the Secretary of State for Fo- have left the House, I certainly did stay in reign Affairs; but at the same time, if I order to be present; and I would have entertained the notions of my hon. and endeavoured to induce other hon. Memlearned Friend the Member for Youghal, bers had I known of the attempt that was I should be as determined as he is not to be made. I do not think it was at all indeed, perhaps, to obstruct the business creditable, I must say, for those who have when the House is about to discuss a sub- the power of influencing other hon. Memject of importance-but I should certainly bers, to ask them to stay away. ["No, be as determined as he can possibly be to no!"] Some hon. Gentlemen say "No, bring the subject under the notice of Par- no!" They do not believe that such could liament. I am not now called upon to be done as a person connected with the express any opinion upon the subject; it Government asking others to go out of will be enough for me to do so after I have the House. I was asked myself by an heard the whole of the arguments after hon. Gentleman individually, and which I I have heard the accusations, and after I refused, and expressed my astonishment have listened to the answer of the noble that such a request should have been Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. made to me. I found that I was only But with regard to any impression that laughed at. And my noble Friend must may exist, I will state that I am in the excuse me for now saying, that being habit of exchanging courtesies with the attacked in the way that he was, then I noble Lord; I have received kindnesses should have been very glad if he could from him; I have been proud and happy have made a triumphant defence. Let my to receive them; and it is impossible that noble Friend hear the arguments of the I can do that if I at all participate in the hon. Gentleman, let him tear his arguimpressions which my hon. Friends (Mr. ments to ribands, let him confound himAnstey and Mr. Urquhart) must conscien- but do not let him, if it is only for his tiously entertain before bringing forward own character, shuffle out of the accusasuch a charge. At the same time, I did tion. I cannot help saying, at the same feel great surprise the other night when time, that I hope my hon. and learned I found how this Motion was got rid of; Friend will come to some understanding because I believe now that measures were with the Government. I do not think it is resorted to which were perfectly Parlia- very difficult to do so, and I do not think mentary, I dare say, but which I do not the Government ought to be anxious to think, under the circumstances, were at avoid the subject. I have said that that all creditable to the Government. I will is not the way I should act; but let my only say this-that if I had been in the hon. and learned Friend take a regular Motion day on which to make this Mo- the same spirit of impartiality that the tion. That would be the more regular noble Lord (Lord D. Stuart) professes he way. It may be a long way off-let him desires to keep up-I felt so hurt by this take as long a day as he can let him give my noble Friend a reprieve-and then I dare say there will be no difficulty. I have endeavoured to induce him to do that in order to forward the public business; and if I had any influence with the Government, it would be to induce them to come to an understanding with him, so as to do every thing in their power to facilitate his bringing forward this Motion. man man The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If the hon. and learned Gentlewill take the advice which my noble Friend (Lord Dudley Stuart) gives him, the Government will do their best to keep a House for the hon. Gentleon any Notice day on which he likes to bring forward his Motion. For my part, I admit that I was not in the House the other night. I came down after having gone to get a mouthful to eat, and I found that the House had been counted out. I was not cognisant of any attempt to count gut the House. I believe the hon. and learned Gentleman will take the regular course, if he now allows the House to go into the question of Supply, and brings his Motion forward on a Motion night. He will do this, if he is desirous to further that which is matter of public interest. I only ask it for the public convenience. MR. O'GORMAN MAHON: With a desire for fair play, I think I may express a hope that my hon. and learned Friend will withdraw his Motion for this evening. With reference to the allusions made to the counting out, I must remind the House that it had been expressly told him by the hon. Member for Montrose that if he did upon that occasion, when both sides of this House had assembled upon the question which presented itself for discussion before this House, not only interesting to this House, but to the community at largeto England, Ireland, and Scotland, and in which all our feelings were wrapped and wound up the hon. and learned Member was solicited by both sides to withdraw his Motion with an express promise that if he did so, he would get a full and fair hearing, and he refused to do so. Having refused to listen to the advice expressed and conveyed to him by hon. Members on both sides of the House, I, for one, who would have heard him with patience, with course, and which so vitally interfered with the matter in which we were so interested (the Debate on the Jewish Disabilities Bill), that I exercised all the power I possessed to induce Members to retire from this House, for the purpose of marking my disapproval of any one who would assume to himself, in opposition to the concurrent wishes of both sides of the House, anything like a factious course of conduct. I now state that I did induce every man that I possibly could to withdraw, knowing this-that the course that the hon. and learned Member suggested and attempted to pursue was calculated to do mischief to a fair and impartial hearing, which he pretended to desire. For if the noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) on the opposite side of the House is in the slightest degree obnoxious to the charges and accusations that the hon. and learned Member alleges against him, it will be the duty of this House to scrutinise them closely, and to punish them with severity if the noble Lord be guilty. But it was impossible, under the circumstances under which he brought forward the question the other night, that either a fair or impartial hearing could have been given to the hon. and learned Member, in consequence of the interference by his Motion in opposition to the unanimous wish of both sides of the House. It is under these circumstances, Sir, that I unite with the noble Lord (Lord D. Stuart) in praying that my hon. and learned Friend will withdraw his Motion now, and on the first convenient day he will get, I hope, the opportunity of making out his charges against the Foreign Secretary. MR. ANSTEY: Before I speak on the question of adjournment, Sir, I wish to know from you whether that will constitute an objection to my being heard by and by upon my Motion, because at present I wish to speak merely in reply to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. MR. SPEAKER: The question of adjournment is a separate question. The hon. Member is at liberty to speak upon both. MR. ANSTEY: Sir, in answer to the appeal which has been made to me by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I have to say that, at an early period of the evening, I gave Her Majesty's Ministers an ample opportunity to afford me some security, that I should have all that I desired, a fair to give way, if at all, and I will give way if I have a reasonable security that I shall not be in any way prejudiced. Sir, with respect to what has been said by an hon. Gentleman of my conduct in not giving way on a former occasion, I have a very simple answer. I gave then what I should suppose to any man of honour was a sufficient reason for my refusal. I asserted then-I repeat it now hearing. I asked no indulgence from either side of the House. I knew that in the position in which I was placing myself, I was entitled to no indulgence; but I was entitled, and I am entitled to justice; and that I demand. I therefore gave the noble Lord at the head of the Treasury an ample opportunity to offer me some assurance that should be satisfactory. It was my desire not to obstruct the business of the House either on this occasion, or on because the press, for reasons best Friday next, it having been conveyed to me that to persevere in my Motion would be to effect the postponement of the Vote of Supply to-night, and, with the Vote of Supply, the financial statement on Friday. No such assurance was given me. I then gave notice that I should at any hour to-night bring on my Motion. The notice was received with silence, and, as I thought, it was acquiesced in by the noble Lord (Lord John Russell): consequently I have been here ever since, at great inconvenience, with other hon. Members, for the mere purpose of this Motion; and now, at the eleventh hour, or rather at the last hour, the right hon. Gentleman comes forward in a manner which leaves me in doubt whether he is serious or not, to propose to me that I shall surrender the slender advantage I possess the only one that I have been able to secure-on the chance of my being able to bring on my Motion by and by, on a day not to be fixed by Government, but by me; in which case Government will endeavour to prevent hon. Members from quitting the House. I am afraid I know what that chance is worth, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it too. But if the right hon. Gentleman will give me this assurance-that he will name a day next week for a Vote of Supply, and name it at such an hour, and give it such a place in the Orders of the Day as will give me reasonable hope that I shall not be again exposed to the contingency of such an appeal as this being addressed to me, I will most cheerfully comply with his request; otherwise, I am very much at a loss what to do. I do not wish to put hon. Members to the inconvenience of waiting here another hour or two for the purpose of hearing a speech of mine even upon so important a subject. On the other hand, I am quite ready to go on. I solicit no indulgence for myself—I can stay here till any hour in the morning. It is not for my convenience, but for the convenience of hon. Members, that I am prepared known to those who have the conduct of it, have taken care to suppress that part, the only material part, of my statement. I did say then what I now repeat-that not only had I made promises not to give way, but that on the faith of those promises several hon. Gentlemen sitting on both sides of the House, and prepared to vote for and against the Jews' Bill, had gone away for the evening. That was the ground on which I rested my reluctance-the impossibility, rather, in which I found myself to give way; and I believe I may appeal to the hon. Member for Northamptonshire, who was one of the Gentlemen who pressed me upon that occasion, but who was not previously aware that such was my position, whether he did not esteem it a perfectly satisfactory explanation? With respect to the conduct of Government on that occasion, it is notorious that the noble and hon. Members acting in the capacity of whippers-in to Her Majesty's Ministers did, in the exercise of that function, materially contribute to the reduction of the numbers present; and the moment was chosen by a noble Lord, a Member of the Administration, when the House found itself sufficiently weeded out by those means, to give the nod which decided the event of the evening. Therefore it is vain for Her Majesty's Ministers or supporters to deny that the House was counted out upon that occasion, and by their contrivance, and not at all from any unwillingness on the part of the House to hear me. However, I have made an offer to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which I now beg to repeat; and I leave it to him now to say whether he will accept it. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: With regard to the offer, I can only say this, that if the hon. and learned Member will put off his Motion till to-morrow fortnight I will do all I can for him, and the Government will take as much care as they can to keep a House for him. If he will now give way, he will have precisely the same power on any PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Sale of Incumbered Estates (Ireland). Clergy and Laity of the Deanery of Burford, against the STATUTE OF PRÆMUNIRE-ELECTION The BISHOP of EXETER presented the petition of which he had given notice. In MR. ANSTEY: Mr. Speaker, I be- doing so, he must, in the first place, be lieve that at present I have the opportu- permitted to say that he had not sought nity, if I choose to use it, of giving notice the office of presenting this petition. On for this day fortnight, or for Tuesday the contrary, it had been his wish to deweek. [Mr. SPEAKER informed the hon.cline it, and he had written to the petiMember that he had not, but must abide tioners intimating his wish that it should the ballot at four o'clock.] Then, Sir, I am in a difficulty. I know that every day is occupied until Tuesday week, and I may find, when I come down at four o'clock in the afternoon, for instance, that some hon. Member has given notice that the hon. Member for Montrose has given notice for this day fortnight on that very Motion which stood for to-morrow, and which, to oblige Her Majesty's Ministers, he has withdrawn-I mean the case of the Rajah of Sattara. In that case I shall be again excluded. Nevertheless, as my first wish is not to press unduly upon the convenience of hon. Members, I will consent to incur even that risk; and I will trust to the promise of the right hon. Baronet. I trust that faith will be kept with me, not only to the letter, but in the spirit, and that no hon. Gentleman will give notice of a Motion for the mere purpose of obstructing or shutting me out. I rely upon the promise of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer with perfect and implicit confidence. MR. URQUHART: Sir, after the explanation of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I beg to withdraw my Motion. Motion withdrawn. House in Committee of Supply. House resumed. Adjourned at a quarter past One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] Took the Oaths.-Viscount Leinster. be put into the hands of their own diocesan. The petitioners, however, answered, that as the petition had reached his hands, they hoped he would consent to present it; and it now devolved upon him to present the petition to their Lordships. It was not an ordinary petition. It proceeded from several conscientious clergymen of the archdeaconry of Bucks, who approached this House, praying that it would deliver the Church from one of the greatest oppressions -one of the most intolerable violations of the rights of conscience—which had ever been inflicted upon any Church since the era of Christianity. The petitioners prayed their Lordships for the repeal of so much of the Statute of the 25th of Henry VIII. as rendered deans, chapters, and bishops, liable to the penalties of a præmunire in the discharge of their respective duties in the election and consecration of bishops in the Christian Church. Heartily concurring with the petitioners in the object of their petition, he did not yet know whether he could go with them in all their views, for he did not know the extent to which they wished their Lordships to interfere; but this he was anxious to say on his own behalf, that if there were any of the clergy, or any of Her Majesty's subjects, who wished to interpose any other than a wholesome check on the exercise of the unquestioned prerogative of the Crown-a prerogative which he hoped would ever remain unquestioned, because he thought it essential to the peace and benefit of the Church -he repeated, that if any persons went the length of wishing to alter the law, so as to trench upon the rights of the Crown to nominate bishops, then he, for one, was not the man to go with them in such a unworthy man. He begged to be permitscheme. On the contrary, he would be ted to say, that in these remarks he cast among the foremost to say "No" to it. aside anything like allusion to any partiBut the reverend petitioners did not indi- cular instance, and applied himself to the cate that they had the slightest notion of general question; and in any observations such a change-they wished to be relieved that he had made in reference to the posfrom a cruel oppression from an Act sibility of an improper person being nomiwhich, from the construction which had nated bishop, he assured their Lordships been put upon it, was nothing less than a that allusion to any particular individual direct persecution. With the prayer to was not intended. He might, however, be be relieved from this persecution, it was permitted to refer to events which had rethat the petitioners came before their Lord-cently taken place. What had occurred at ships. Now, so far as the election of the late election of a bishop? On that ocbishops by deans and chapters was con- casion two of the electors, at least, thought cerned, he (the Bishop of Exeter) certainly that the individual nominated was such thought the provisions of the Statute of as they could not conscientiously vote the 25th of Henry VIII. was unmixed for. Those individuals, he hoped - he tyranny. He thought the course prescribed was sure they ought-felt themselves in the Statute of Henry VIII. which di- bound to abstain from joining in the Te rected deans and chapters to proceed with Deum in honour of the election of the inthe forms of election, accompanied by so- dividual elected. Here let him observe, lemn religious service, and at the same that the very fact of a minority having time compelled them to elect any indivi- voted against the person nominated, predual, however unfit they might conscien- sented in the strongest light the unreasontiously feel him to be, under the penalties ableness as well as injustice of this staof præmunire, was so monstrous and so tute. The guilt of a person disobeying oppressive that it was only necessary to the law is, in reason, just the same, be mention it in order to secure their Lord- the number of those who join him in his ships' sympathy with the petitioners in disobedience more or less. The individual wishing to put an end to it. If the who refused to obey the Royal mandate, Crown directly nominated the bishop, and was as guilty of disloyalty if he voted then suffered the Church to interfere in a alone as if a number voted with him; and proper, due and wholesome manner for the yet such was the capriciousness of this purpose of seeing whether the party so no- statute that the law was not violated if the minated was canonically qualified, and was election took place; and, notwithstanding not canonically disqualified, he should think that they had been told on high authority such a law a proper law; and he hoped that that the very rev. Dean of Hereford had Her Majesty's Ministers would take the announced his intention of violating the matter into consideration, and that, while law, by declaring that he could not vote they preserved the prerogative of the Crown for the person nominated by the Crown, no to nominate the bishops, they would endea- law was really violated, because the recusant vour to assert the cause of their Church, Dean being in a minority, the election was not so that no unsound divine, no immoral hindered or prevented. After the election man, no man disqualified by any cause the confirmation followed; and he must say which the canons recognised as a just that he hoped that the construction put on ground of objection against consecration, the Statute of the 25th Henry VIII. by part should be admitted into the episcopal of that learned bench, which devoted so order. He hoped the Government would much of its time and extraordinary talents give that assistance to the Church. The ceremony of election was conducted with solemn forms, and accompanied by divine service. After the election was made and announced to the people, the electors, with all the assembled multitude, went and sang Te Deum in honour of the elected man; and if such an honour was to be done him, he ought to be known and felt by all to be worthy of it; else such a course of proceeding would be blasphemous if he were believed by many of those present to be an to the arguments on this question on a recent occasion-he hoped, he repeated, that the opinions of those two learned individuals who thought that the confirmation of the election of a bishop was a judicial act, would ultimately prevail as the law of the land. He was perfectly certain that the noble and learned Lord who presided with so much honour to himself over the Court of Queen's Bench would not be surprised if, when one-half of the learned bench expressed on a recent occasion a |