ity of parliament were respected in Ireland. He called upon them, then, to exercise that authority upon this occasion. By doing so, they would put an end to those dissentions by which Ireland was internally torn and divided; remove the difficulties by which her government was impeded; and restore to her that peace, prosperity, and happiness, to which she was entitled, and which it was the most sincere and anxious wish of his majesty's government she should enjoy. He begged, in conclusion, to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend certain Acts, relating to Unlawful Societies in Ireland."

societies in Ireland. He had done so, because he felt that such a bill was necessary to the peace of that country. He was happy to state, that in some parts of Ireland, that bill had attained its object. In many parts, the societies so suppressed had not re-modelled themselves so as to elude the bill, but had altogether abstained from meeting from the moment they were declared illegal. He was bound at the same time to add, in justice to those societies who did re-model themselves, that they had substituted for their illegal oaths, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, and that a written certificate of such oaths having been sworn before a magistrate, was necessary to the admission of any member. He confessed, that the feeling which actuated him in bringing in that bill, induced him to go further, and to put a stop to those other societies by which the peace and tranquillity of Ireland were interrupted. The most objectionable parts of the Catholic Association were its permanent sittings, and its levying money from the people. The objects of his bill, then, would be, to prevent the permanence of those sittings, the appointment of committees beyond a certain time, and also to put a stop to any levy of money for the purpose of redressing private or public grievances. It would also render illegal all societies which were affiliated; which corresponded with other societies; which excluded persons on the ground of any particular religious faith; or in which any oaths were taken other than those directed by law. There would of course be exceptions in favour of certain societies, such as meetings on the subject of trade, agriculture, charity, and others of a similar description. The parties charged with belonging to any prohibited societies would be proceeded against by indictment alone; so that, in the event of any vexatious prosecution, the attorney-general should have an opportunity of interfering. This was an outline of the remedy which he meant to propose; and he confessed he saw no other mode of putting an end to a society to which every lover of peace and order must be opposed-a society which arrogated to itself the prerogatives and privileges of the Crown, solely for the purpose of supporting the interests of a faction.

There had been times when the House did so interfere for the protection of the peace of the country; and he felt sure, that even now the name and author

Mr. John Smith said, that as an individual intimately connected with the Irish society of London, he felt it incumbent on him to deliver his sentiments on this momentous question. He could assure the House that, in all he meant to say, he followed no other dictate than that of a sincere sense of public duty. A great part of the right hon. gentleman's speech related to the conduct-the atrocious conduct, as he had termed it—of the Catholic Association. The right hon. gentleman had given the House many details and statements on that subject. If he were to decide on mere statement and detail, then certainly he should be as much satisfied with the statements and details of the right hon. gentleman as he could be with those of any individual he was acquainted with. This would be very justifiable in a private case. But when a great public measure was connected with those statements, then he could not rest satisfied with any details which came from the right hon. gentleman, unless they were borne out and corroborated. He would, on this occasion, take the same course which had been adopted on others; he would call for some evidence to prove that the step intended to be pursued was just and proper. He regretted the scenes which took place in 1791; at the same time, he did not wish to enter into that subject. But, as the right hon. gentleman had touched upon it, he would call on him to look at the transactions of 1795. These were matters of historical recollection, and might be spoker of with propriety. Did the right hon. gentleman remember the frightful cry of "To Hell or Connaught!" fulminated against the Roman Catholics? Did he recollect the conflagration of their houses, and the burning of their property? The Orange party

most unfortunate events that had happened for a long time. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he expected from it peace and tranquillity, and that the Irish nation would hereafter participate in all the benefits of the present flourishing state of the rest of the empire. On several former occasions, he had taught the House to believe that such would be the effects of the Insurrection act-had it done so? Had it not, on the contrary, doubled the sense of injury on the part of the Catholics, and sent into banishment many who, he believed, were innocent of all crime. It was an extraordinary fact, to which he could speak from an accidental knowledge of several individuals holding distinguished situations in New South Wales, that, of all the convicts sent thither, the Irish were the most orderly, decent, and respectable. Their conduct there formed a striking contrast to the lawless and violent intentions they were charged with entertaining at home [hear!]. The right hon. gentleman might indulge hopes, and that they might be realised was the wish of every lover of his country; but if they were realised, it would be in opposition to the experience afforded by the whole system of government in Ireland for many years. Hitherto, none of their flattering anticipations had been realised; and he was well satisfied that there was but one mode of producing peace, tranquillity, and prosperity in Ireland-concession to the Catholics of those rights of which their Protestant brethren were in the daily enjoyment [hear, hear!]. In the Hanoverian dominions of his majesty, the most extended toleration existed. In Canada also, where half the population were Catholics, the utmost harmony prevailed. The same remark would apply to Maryland, under the government of the United States. It was originally a Catholic settlement, and a great proportion of the inhabitants were still of that persuasion; they lived in perfect amity with the Protestants, married and intermarried (which it seemed was not allowed in Ireland), and engaged in mutual speculations both of commerce and agriculture. He would defy the right hon. Secretary for the home department, with all his ability and learning-he would defy the whole university he represented-to produce a single instance, in ancient or modern history, where the most extensive toleration had produced the slightest peril to the state. The true method of managing

religious sects, and preserving order and good-will in a kingdom, was to render equal justice to all: this system extracted the venom from the sting even of those reptiles in a state who were most disposed to wound. Before he sat down he could not refrain from stating the deep grief he felt at seeing this measure, which must 80 importantly interfere with the happiness and prosperity of the Irish people, supported by the right hon. Secretary for foreign affairs. He gave that right hon. gentleman full credit for the sincerity of his former exertions to remove the disabilities under which the Catholics laboured, but he grieved to find that he lent himself to this new and perilous experiment. If government were disposed to check these Associations, why did it not proceed against them in a different manner, without producing disappointment and exciting resentment? On a very recent occasion, the right hon. gentleman had laid before the House the result of his proceedings relative to the independent states of South America. As an Englishman, he felt gratitude for the statesmanlike manner in which that important negotiation had been conducted it was highly creditable to the right. hon. gentleman, and to the government who had supported him; because, while careful of the national honour, and watchful over the national interest, he had not neglected to be just. After this display of his love of justice and liberality, it was doubly grievous to see the same right hon. gentleman lending himself to a measure which must blast for ever, in the minds of the Roman Catholics, the hopes his previous conduct had excited. Why did he not attempt something worthy his high talents and liberal mind, to heal the festering wounds of Ireland? Perhaps he was the only man in the country who could accomplish this great object; and, scorning all considerations of fleeting ambition and temporary popularity, if he valued his character with posterity, or the permanent welfare of his country, he ought to commence this great and beneficent undertaking. A time must arrive with all men, when they would have to look back to the events of their lives for many subjects of satisfaction or accusation, the best would find much to regret and deplore, but at that moment an opportunity was offered to a great and enlightened mind, which never might recur, and the neglect of which, on the approach of death, might be

a source of the bitterest affliction. He conjured the right hon. gentleman to retrace the steps he had recently taken-to open his heart to the cries of the afflicted Irish-to withhold his support to this bill -and to stand forward once more the eloquent and the undaunted champion of equal laws and equal rights to the Catholic and the Protestant. He would fain persuade himself, that it was still the wish and the intention of the right hon. gentleman to do justice to Ireland; and nothing but perseverance in a course of measures like the present could induce him to abandon the hope, that it was yet the destiny of the right hon. gentleman to vindicate the cause of his injured and oppressed countrymen, and to secure to them the blessings of the British constitution.

Mr. Abercromby said, he came to the discussion of this subject with the greatest possible sorrow, because it had been his conviction, subsequently confirmed by the candid avowal of the right hon. gentleman, that the House would be called upon a career of conduct and a course of measures, the effect of which would be to sap the foundation of the peace and prosperity of the realm, and to sow the seeds of discontent and sedition. If the question had been as to the provisions of the bill, in common candour he would have deferred the discussion of their merits or defects. But, to the principle he objected; and therefore, whether the enactments were mild and circumscribed, or severe and extensive, was on the present occasion, of no import. He was prepared to contend against it on reason; and he thought he should be able to dispute it upon experience. Were he asked if he disapproved of the Association, his answer would be clearly in the affirmative. He regretted its existence, though the grounds of that regret might be different to those of the right hon. gentleman. To many it was, no doubt, highly objectionable, because it brought into weekly and daily observation the just grievances of the Catholics; for if the Association had not been backed by just grievances, it would never have tempted the interference of parliament. No doubt some persons might, with apparent reason, complain of its proceedings, because they brought to light disagreeable truths; but he (Mr. A.) disliked its existence, because that very existence afforded an undeniable proof of misgovernment and maladministration.

For years the finger of scorn and contempt had been every where raised against his majesty's ministers, for their conduct towards Ireland; but they had been reviled in vain, and upon them the lessons of experience seemed to have been lost. Were he asked, whether he wished the Association to continue its labours, his reply would assuredly be in the negative; but by that admission he gave not the least advantage to the framers of the bill now under consideration. It was frankly confessed, that this measure was only the commencement of a series, and that others would be, from time to time, introduced, to keep pace with the ingenuity of those who succeeded in evading the law. True it was, that an act of parliament might destroy the Catholic Association in its present form; but who should say how often it might be revived in some other shape, requiring new exertions on the part of the executive to keep pace with its ingenuity? The difference between the right hon. gentleman and himself was this-the right hon. gentleman waged war against the symptoms: he waged war against the cause. Emancipation, and emancipation alone, could put an effectual end to the labours of the Association. The Association might be dismembered, but the spirit which produced it would continue even in greater activity. The longer justice was refused, the more virulent would be the exasperation on the part of the people of Ireland. He was now entitled to call the Catholics the people of Ireland. Of the Protestants he spoke with all respect. God forbid he should be so intolerant as to deny it to them! But the House should recollect the disproportion in the population, and that the Protestants no longer monopo lized all the education and civilization of the country. The great body of the Catholics now possessed knowledge, which was power, and civilization would enable them to use that power to advantage: they were therefore entitled to be called the people of Ireland. What, then, he would now inquire, could be the possible effect of this measure? What could be the effect of any measure of this kind, but to aggravate the very feeling out of which the evil complained of had arisen? The right hon. gentleman adopted a course which excited, instead of allaying irritation; which encouraged discontent instead of promoting good will; while he (Mr. A.) in accordance with the ablest and wisest

the Orangemen the only parties systematically united and banded against the Catholics by the strongest ties, those of sympathy and self-interest? Could it be disputed, that the main body of the clergymen of the church of England were so united and banded and ranged against their fellow-citizens in the most resolute hostility? Had they not been so united and banded since the moment when lord Sidmouth declared that he held his office by the tenure of Catholic exclusion? Was it wonderful, then, that the Catholics of Ireland, surrounded by enemies, united and banded against them in that country-aided by others, united and banded against them in this recol lecting the argument used at the Union, and that notwithstanding, after five and twenty years, they were as far as ever from the attainment of their object-should be induced to combine for the accomplishment of a purpose for which they had been so long struggling? Had they so combined in violation of the existing law? Most assuredly not. For if they had been guilty of the slightest infringement, was it to be supposed for a moment that the vigour of its arm would have been called into action against them? It was undeniable, then, that the Association had not offended against the law; although a solitary attempt, which he would not now characterise as it deserved, had been made to bring one of its members to justice. With the full knowledge of the existence of Orange societies, who had violated a known law, and of the existence of the Catholic Association, which had violated no law, the House was called upon to adopt new and more vigorous measures, to keep pace with the ingenuity of those who, to maintain their rights, were compelled, by the injustice of their oppressors, to resort to expedients becoming rather the guilty than the innocent. For one, he abjured such a course-such a system of legislation which, if pursued, must end in the total separation of Ireland. He recollected no domestic question so awfully important. The right hon. gentleman, with some warmth, had deplored the union of the two characters of priest and associator. He (Mr. A.) deplored it also. The combination of a religious and a political character in the same individual had been productive of some of the greatest evils the world had known. But, did this combination exist only among the Catholics? At least it was

of men that had ever adorned the annals of the country, by restoring the Catholics to their unquestioned rights, and by destroying all odious distinctions, would raise them from a degraded caste, take them into the bosom of the state, and by uniting all its subjects, consolidate the strength of the empire. On this general view he was prepared to resist the motion before the House. But the right hon. gentleman had indulged in many observations upon the Catholic Association. He (Mr. A.) did not mean to stand up as their advocate and panegyrist, nor would any hon. gentleman on his side of the House do so; but he should hold himself unworthy of his place, because guilty of a base acquiescence, if, from the fear of misrepresentation and calumny, he did not boldly state his opinion regarding it. He regarded the existence of this body as a natural consequence of the system of misrule so long pursued. It had been used as an argument against the Catholic claims, and urged with great effect in this country (though he was surprised to hear it from any gentleman who had visited Ireland), that the question of emancipation only affected a small number of individuals, and, that to the great mass of the Catholics, it was wholly unimportant; that it was merely a dispute whether Mr. O'Connell should have a silk gown, or lord Fingal form one of the twenty-eight representative peers of Ireland. If the great body of the Catholics were disposed to afford a clear practical answer to this argument, or more properly to this assertion, he, for one, could not blame them. That the Catholics, to use the terms of their opponents, had united and banded themselves together for this purpose, and had established the Association, he begged leave, on the other hand, to ask, if no parties had united and banded themselves against them? Had the House never heard of Orangemen, and of Orange societies? Had it never witnessed, on the part of these Orangemen, a detestation towards the Catholics, at least as strong as the hatred of the Catholics towards them? Such was the fact; and he deplored it. He stated it clearly and broadly, because it was only by plain and unequivocal statements, that the people of this country arrived at a correct knowledge of the real state of things, and were thus rendered capable of deciding this great question, involving the safety and prosperity of the whole empire. But, were VOL. XII.