of the pretence on which this bill was brought in. In his majesty's Speech an intention was announced to treat all parties with impartial justice. The bill, then would have to cope with a phantom on the one hand-with a thing which did not exist-while, on the other, it would act against the whole population of Ireland. His hon. friend had quoted some of the speeches which had been made at the meetings of the Catholic Association. He (Mr. R.) could not justify those speeches; but because he could not do so, he was not therefore prepared to condemn the Association. He knew of no assembly, not even that in which he had the honour of standing, of which the whole proceedings and the whole debates could be justified. Even on the Journals of that House, had there never been resolutions entered which no man of common sense would at that day attempt to justify? If a resolution had been come to, that two and two made five instead of four, would it be rational therefore to conclude, that all the other resolutions of the House were of a similar character? He only claimed, then, for the Association so much indulgence as it was entitled to, and so much as ought to be granted to every public assembly like it. In discussing the violence, however, it should be remember. ed, that the two parties were not upon equal grounds. If that party which was in the possession of all the power, of nearly all the wealth, and in the enjoyment of all the advantages of the constitution, should adopt violent measures, or use violent language, it could not be too much blamed: but, if the excluded party, smarting under a sense of wrongs, loaded with burthens, and pained by a sense of undeserved inferiority, should utter its complaints in language which partook rather of the wildness and violence of its grief than of cool remonstrance, could this not be excused?-might it not be justified? But, had his hon. friend acted fairly in the course he had adopted? Had he not, in the extracts which he had made from the files of the Dublin papers, shown only one side of the picture? Were there not many speeches of a directly contrary tendency, and which would show that the violence which was complained of was not the tone adopted by all the speakers? He would read an extract from a newspaper not equally obvious, that the violence of the Orange party would rely for its excuse upon the expressed sentiments of another part of that cabinet? At all events, it was better that as few references as possible should be made to what had taken place at other times. It would be better for the fair discussion of the question-it would be better for the country-that little should be said of the past, and that more should be thought of the duty which was at present to be discharged. But, if his hon. friend (Mr. Dawson) would open the page of Rebellion, did he think that some entries were not to be found on the other side of it? Did he believe that the murder of lord O'Neilhorrible, most horrible, as it was-could not be paralleled, or at least was not imitated by some of the Orange and Protestant enormities? He had said Orange and Protestant; but he begged to separate those two words. He would not yield to any man in respect and veneration for the Protestant reformed religion; but, because he was a firm member of that church, he was not the less sensible of the injury and injustice which must be done to others by the violent support of intolerant opinions, and the danger which might result therefrom even to that establishment itself. He lamented sincerely and deeply the existence of all Associations, whether Orange or Catholic. Let the fact only be proved, that they were unconstitutional and dangerous, and that the remedy proposed was an efficient one, and no man would go greater lengths in its adoption than he would. But he must first have that proof; and where was there any evidence before the House which it could safely or properly act upon? His hon. friend had referred to the influence of the priesthood as one cause of the evils which existed in Ireland, and which tainted the administration of justice in that country; but where was the proof by which he substantiated that statement? The papers he produced by way of proof were extracts from newspapers; and this was the first time in the history of that House, that it had been called upon to legislate on so important a topic, where the only grounds for the measure it was proposed to adopt were drawn from the Dublin newspapers [hear, hear]. He should like to know on what authority his hon. friend had asserted, that there were no Orange lodges at present in Ireland. If there were none, then there was an end (he begged pardon for doing so, but newspapers were the only state papers of which the House was in possession, and his hon. friend could not object to his adducing that evidence, unless he also invalidated his own)-for the purpose of showing that the language of moderation and conciliation was sometimes used. Lord Killeen, who was well known to be of moderate principles, and whose character and high station were no inconsiderable proofs of the worth of any cause to which he attached himself, presided at one of those meetings. He had said on that occasion, in his address to the meeting "In the affairs of the Catholics of Ireland, there was never any time so important as the present. The Catholics have gone forward to petition in a manner worthy of themselves and their cause, for their admission to those privileges to which they are entitled. They have made this appeal not as Catholics, but as the members of a free government, and they protest against laws which have the effect of restraining their right to petition." His lordship then went on to say "The Catholics of Ireland cannot obtain their emancipation by their own efforts, nor without the co-operation of their Protestant countrymen." He recommended them, therefore, to be temperate and patient. He reminded them, that their enemies were on the watch, and that any intemperance on their part would cause them to fall into the meshes of those ene mies. He added, "Let me adjure you, not by the hatred you bear to Orange men, or to any class of men, for I hope you entertain no such feeling" [this part of the speech was received with tears], "but by your regard for your own rights -by the love you bear to your children -by your hopes of the future well-being of your country-by the memory of your forefathers, whom neither promises nor threats could induce to forego that faith which they prized more than their lives or happiness by your love of liberty, and by your veneration for the constitution by all these, I adjure you to abstain from all threats and from all violent and indiscreet measures. I recommend you to meet the acts of the legislature, what ever they may be, with the firmness of men, but with the submission which becomes subjects." This, then, was at least one proof, that violence and intemperance were not always the character istics of the language in which the Catholics of Ireland were addressed at the Association; and this justified him in calling upon the House not to pass the bill at that moment of irritation, and upon no better authority than the statements of newspapers. When the Insurrection act was under discussion last session, a complaint was made, that it was a practice among the magistracy of Ireland, to take improper fees. The complaint was at the time positively and indignantly contradicted; but, it had been proved in the committee above stairs, that practices of the most unjust and iniquitous description had occurred under the authority of the magistracy. He remembered that, when it was in contemplation to establish petty sessions, it was said, that that measure would remove all ground of complaint on the subject of the magistracy, because one magistrate would be brought to act as a watch upon another, and it would be impossible for any of the body to take illegal fees, or to pursue other improper practices. The evidence given before the committee up stairs had, however, shown, that the measure had failed to produce that effect. He therefore was entitled to call upon the House not to put forth in the declaration, that there was nothing wrong in the conduct of the magistracy; for the fact had been denied before, and the denial had been found to be unfounded. It had been made apparent, in the same committee to which he had before alluded, that there was a general indisposition, on the part of the people of Ireland, to obey the laws. That was not at all surprising, considering the manner in which those laws were administered. He would give the House an illustration upon this point. By a return which had been laid upon the table, it appeared that, in the course of six years, 6,000 persons had been committed for offences under the distillery laws. Those persons were of the poorer classes, upon whom those laws pressed with peculiar severity. In the examination before the commission of inquiry, a witness was asked, "Did it ever occur to you, that it would be desirable to distil fine spirit in order to supply the tables of those who have been accustomed to use poteen?". that was, the illicit whisky: the witness answered, that he did not think it would be a good speculation, "for except from the dignitaries of the church, the officers of the army, and the magistrates, there is no demand for illicit spirits" [a laugh]. Those were the persons who countenanced the violation of the law, and were instrumental to the commitment of the 6,000 it was known that his personal feeling was opposed to any concession to the Catholics. But in the present reign, and under different circumstances as regarded the feeling of the Crown, pariment was called upon to pass penal laws against the Catholics; for he could not consider the present bill in any other light than a penal law. The bill, he was satisfied, would be inoperative. The right hon. Secretary for Ireland, when he introduced the measure to the House, had said, that he would be prepared to run a race of in poor people. It was impossible that the population of Ireland should contemplate such an administration of the law with feelings of respect. He did not wish to be understood to censure in every par ticular the administration of the law in Ireland. He paid a willing tribute of admiration to the unrivalled combination of learning, integrity, dignity, and every thing that could recommend a judge, which was to be found in the present chief justice of the court of King's-bench in Ireland [hear!]. He would not go further he would not travel into a neigh-genuity with the Association. But the bouring court, where, perhaps, he might find buffoonery supplying the place of learning, and the pun of the day superseding the gravity of the law. In the observations which the hon. under secretary had made respecting the archbishop of Tuam, he had not explained the cause which had operated the change of feeling in the Catholics towards that reverend individual. The Catholics did once, as the hon. gentleman had stated, entertain a most affectionate regard for him, which they displayed on one occasion by assembling of their own accord, and getting in his harvest for him; and, it was not until the archbishop, acting, doubtless, under the impulse of what he conceived to be his duty, went forth on a crusade of proselytism, that an alteration in the feeling of the Catholics took place towards him. The charge of ingratitude was one of the last which could be established against the people of Ireland. If they had not any devoted attachment to the laws, it 'must be attributed to some other cause than a want of gratitude. His hon. friend who spoke on a former evening, attributed the restoration of tranquillity in Ireland to the penal law which was passed last session, and he therefore consistently enough gave his support to the present measure. He (Mr. Rice), however, did not connect the tranquillity of Ireland with the enactment of penal laws; but thought, on the contrary, that laws of a different description would be much more effectual in promoting peace in that country. It was lamentable to contrast the present reign with that which had pre-a government of law. On the grounds ceded it. The last reign was, with respect to the Catholics, a reign of concession. He could refer to many documents of the Association, to show that the Catholics entertained a strong feeling of gratitude towards the late monarch for the benefits which he had conferred upon them, when VOL. XII. right hon. gentleman should recollect, that the race would be one of a peculiar description. The Association would always have the start. When the right hon. Secretary should set out from his office, the Association would be at Hounslow; and they would maintain the same relative distance on all occasions. If the right hon. Secretary should succeed in putting down the present mode of discussion, the Catholics would seek for other modes, and they would be justified in so doing. Although, however, the bill would be inoperative for good, it would be deeply and extensively operative for evil. The present bill was the first measure which would bring the legislature in contact with the peasant. There was not a man who had subscribed his penny to the funds of the Association who would not feel, if the bill should pass, that the arm of parliament was raised against him. He had not the same weight of character as his right hon. friend below him (sir J. Newport), but, echoing the sentiments which he had addressed to the House, he implored them to pause before they took a step which would weaken in the people of Ireland that feeling of respect for parliament and the constituted authorities of the country, which it ought to be the wish of every man to strengthen. At the same time, if a proper course should be taken to put down associations in Ireland, no one would more readily assist in such a work than himself-for no one more detested a government of associations, and no one more admired that the measure would be inoperative, and that it was proposed to pass it without any evidence, he would vote against it. Mr. Brownlow said, that he rose to give as much aid as he was able to the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, who had with 2 B pleased to pronounce on the opening of the present session had been promulgated at the opening of the session of 1824. How much did he wish, that the petition which he had the honour to present to the House towards the close of last session, and which he supported with such remonstrances as he thought the subject merited, had not entirely fallen short of its object. For if that had been the case, the situation of Ireland, and of parliament, would have been very different, and much more agreeable than it at present was. At the period to which he referred, the right hon. Secretary for foreign affairs spoke of the Roman Catholic Association as a kind of safety caped-as a mere exuberance on the surface of the political body, which was an indication of the healthfulness of the system, and which, if left to itself, would in proper time disappear. But now the tone was changed; for, immediately on the opening of parliament, a measure was proposed for putting down unlawful associations. And what associations? Why, the Catholic Association, and the Catholic Association alone [cheers from the opposition]. If the measure was restrictive of the rights of the people, the blame of it ought to rest where alone it was due so much wisdom and manliness introduced | down by the usurpation of the Associathe present measure; and who had sup- tion. How much did he wish, that the ported it with so powerful and unanswer- sentiments which his majesty had been able a statement. He knew not whether it was to the right hon. Secretary that the hon. member for Queen's County alluded on a former night, when he said that the marquis Wellesley was thwarted in all his wise measures. It was too much the fashion to put forth such statements; they were easily made and could be met in no other way than by a simple denial. With respect to the right hon. Secretary, he would say, that he knew of no man who had laboured more diligently in his vocation, or better succeeded in undertaking and bringing to a successful termination, measures difficult in principle, and almost impossible in practice. He did not, however, wish to separate the right hon. Se-valve through which much bad feeling escretary from the rest of the Irish administration, however other persons might be disposed to do so. It was constantly represented by hon. members opposite, and as constantly repeated, that at length it began to be believed as a fact, that the whole of the Protestant population of Ireland were drawn up in hostile array against the marquis of Wellesley and his administration. That he denied. Under the administration of the noble marquis, the greatest good had been accomplished for Ireland; under his administration Ireland had become a subject of peculiar attraction; under his admi-on the Catholic Association. For what, nistration a ready ear had been lent to the representation of grievances, and a willing and speedy hand to the redress of them; under his administration the country had passed from a state of rebellion to a state of tranquillity. For all those blessings the gratitude of the people of Ireland was due to the marquis Wellesley, and thanks were returned for them by no part of the community with more sincerity or unaffected pleasure than by the Protestants of Ireland. Such being the case, what had induced the government to enter upon their present course? It was said, that government had embarked in a crusade against the liberties of the Irish people. The last idea which had been broached on the subject was, that the marquis Wellesley was jealous of the efforts which the Catholic Association was making to restore tranquillity to Ireland. In his opinion, the bill had originated in nothing but a desire on the part of the government of Ireland to restore something like legal authority where it had almost been beaten he would ask, had occurred during the parliamentary recess on the part of the Protestants of Ireland, to call for any coercive measure? He would refer to the north of Ireland, where the greatest number of Protestants were to be found. Those persons who were connected with that part of the kingdom had it in their power to state, that since the meetings of the Association, the Protestant population had surpassed all former example of forbearance and moderation, as the Associa tion had in the insults and threats which they directed against them exceeded allformer instances of violence. He had heard the Protestant gentlemen of Ireland designated as a body of interested hypocrites, who had possessed themselves of the good things of the country, and were determined not to part with them. He could tell those who employed such language, that the Protestant gentlemen of Ireland, in the relations of parents, landlords, and magistrates, followed the precepts of their religion by studying the good of all committed to The Convention act was passed to prevent illegal assemblies; but its prohibitory provisions did not extend merely to assemblages committing any thing illegal, but to assemblages which had never done any thing improper. The assembling alone was a contravention of the act, and a peace officer was authorized immediately to disperse any assembly which he might find existing. A good deal of ridicule had been directed against the act by the learned member for Nottingham, on account of the exception which it contained with respect to the House of Commons and the House of Convocation. In 1814, a court of justice, in speaking of the act, declared that the exceptions which had been made in favour of the House of Commons and the Houses of Convocation, proved the extreme length to which the legislature intended to push the principle of the act, and that they were obliged to make those specific exceptions in consequence of the largeness of its wording. Those who ought to support the measure before the House, were those who had the interest of the Catholic question most at heart. The sentiments developed in the Association had done much to retard the progress of that question. The Association had not met to advance their claims, but to mingle vengeance with argument, and to intimidate the government. To show the bad effect which must result to their cause from their putting themselves in such an attitude, he would quote an opinion which must carry with it additional weight, as being that of the noble lord at the head of the government in Ireland. That noble lord, in speaking of the menacing position which the Catholics had assumed on a former occasion, had said "To claims so advanced, it would be impossible for parliament to yield, without compromising. its dignity." Such had been the bad. effect produced by the Association, that Protestants who some time ago would willingly have signed petitions in favour of the Catholics, could not now be induced to do so. One of the arguments which had been advanced in favour of the Association, was that which most proved its dangerous tendency, namely, that it had brought about tranquillity in Ireland. Now, if that were the case, the Association was also responsible for the disturbances which had so long existed. He admitted that the Association was now a most powerful body. In the beginning. their charge, in a manner not to be surpassed by any body of men in Ireland or any other country. He contended, therefore, that the measure under discussion had been called for solely by the conduct of the Catholic Association, and not by the Protestants. As children not sick were sometimes obliged to take physic to encourage others to whom the dose was really necessary; so must the whole of Ireland be subjected to the proposed law; the innocent suffer for the guilty-the just for the unjust-those whose object was to support order for those whose only object, he believed, was to involve the country in confusion. An hon. baronet had attributed the disturbances which had prevailed in Ireland to the exertions of Messrs. Gordon and Noel, and to the introduction of that wicked book the Bible. He was sorry to hear such an effect attributed to that book which had been ushered into the world with the glorious strains of peace on earth, and good-will to men. He denied that the respectable gentlemen to whom he had alluded had gone to Ireland on an expedition of prose Lytism. They had proceeded to Ireland on the part of the London Hibernian Society, which he had never heard accused of endeavouring to make proselytes. Was it proselytizing to distribute the Bible, and in the Irish language too? Was it proselytizing to pay Roman Catholic schoolmasters-to send round Catholic inspectors to all the schools which they had established? The fact was, that it was not against proselytizing that the Catholics had opposed themselves, but against education of any kind: for the Roman Catholic faith was founded on ignorance, and they were afraid that education would dissipate it [hear, hear]. The hon. and learned member for Winchelsea had stated, that he had observed most diligently all the proceedings, speeches, and writings, of the Catholic Association, and had not been able to find a single circumstance deserving of censure. Now, if he might indulge in the same style, he would say, that with the exception of the single document read by his hon. friend, the member for Limerick, he could find nothing in all that had been said, written, or done by the Association, but what proceeded from the most dangerous motives. But, he apprehended that the discussion on the present subject should be independent of whatever had been said or done by the Association. |