have tranfgreffed. All laws are to be confidered ftrictly and literally, or more explanatorily and lenitively. In the firft fenfe, the execution of many laws may be extrema injuria, the greatest wrong: in the latter, wifdom and moderation: I would have thee make that part thy choice.

Now whereas I am probably to be tried by the late act against conventicles, I conceive it doth not reach

me.

J. R. No, Sir, I fhall not proceed upon that law. W. P. What law then? I am fure that was intended for the ftandard on these occafions.

J. R. The Oxford-act of fix months.

W. P. That, of all laws, cannot concern me; for first I was never in orders, neither episcopally nor clasfically, and one of them is intended by the preamble of the act.

J. R. No, no; any that speak in unlawful affemblies, and you spoke in an unlawful affembly.

W. P. Two things are to be confidered. First, that the words, "Such as fpeak in any unlawful af"femblies," alter the cafe much; for fuch is relative of the preamble, and cannot concern perfons in any other qualification, than under fome ordination or mark of priesthood. I am perfuaded thou knoweft I am no fuch perfon; I was never ordained, nor have I any particular charge or ftipend, that may intitle me to fuch a function; and therefore I am wholly unconcerned in the word "fuch.".

Secondly, An unlawful affembly is too general a word; the act doth not define to us what is meant by an unlawful affembly.

J. R. But other acts do.

W. P. That is not to the purpofe; for that may be an unlawful affembly in one act, that may, by circumftances, not be fo adjudged in another; and it is hard that you will not ftick to fome one act or law, but, to accomplish your ends, borrow a piece out of one act, to fupply the defects of another, and of a different nature from it.

J. R.

J. R. Will you fwear? Will you take the oath that the act requires of you?

is

W. P. This is not to the purpose.
J. R. Read him the oath.

The OA T H.

W.P. do fwear, that it is not lawful, upon any pretence whatsoever, to take arms against the king, and that I do abhor that traiterous pofition of taking arms, by his authority, against his perfon, or against those that are commiffioned by him, in purfuance of fuch commiffions, and that I will not at any time endeavour any alteration of government, either in church or ftate.'

J. R. Will you take it, or no?

W. P. What need I take an oath not to do that, it my faith not to do, fo far as concerns the king. Lieut. Price. Then fwear it.

W. P. The oath in that respect is already answered to all intents and purpofes; for if I cannot fight against any man, (much lefs against the king) what need I take an oath not to do it? Should I fwear not to do what is already against my confcience to do?

J. R. You will not take the oath then.

W. P. What if I refuse the oath, not because of the matter contained in it (which only can criminate in the fenfe of the act) but of fcrupling any oath? Shall I therefore be committed to prifon? This is most unequal. It was about FIGHTING the oath and act were defigned, and not taking of oaths: therefore the denying to fwear, when there is a denial to fight or plot, is no equitable ground for commitment.

J. R. Do you refuse to swear?

W. P. Yes, and that upon better grounds than those for which thou wouldst have me fwear, if thou wilt please to hear me.

J. R. I am forry you should put me upon this feve rity; it is no pleasant work to me.

W. P.

W. P. These are but words; it is manifeft that this is a prepenfe malice: thou haft feveral times laid the meetings for me, and this day particularly.

J. R. No, I profefs I could not tell you would be there.

W. P. Thine own corporal told me, that you had intelligence at the Tower that I would be at WheelerStreet to-day, almost as soon as I knew it myself: it is difingenous and partial; I never gave thee occafion for fuch unkindness.

J. R. I knew no fuch thing; but if I had, I confefs I fhould have fent for you.

W. P. That might have been fpared, I do heartily believe it.

J.R. I vow, Mr. Penn, I am forry for you: you are an ingenious gentleman, all the world must allow you, and do allow you that; and you have a plentiful eftate why fhould you render yourself unhappy, by affociating with fuch a fimple people?

W. P. I confefs I have made it my choice to relinquifh the company of those that are ingeniously wicked, to converfe with thofe that are more honestly fimple.

J. R. I wish you wiser.

W. P. And I wish thee better.

J. R. You have been as bad as other folks.

W.P. When, and where? I charge thee to tell the company to my face.

J. R. Abroad, and at home too.

Sir John Shelden, [as is fuppofed]. No, no, Sir John, that is too much: [or words to that purpose.]

W. P. I make this bold challenge to all men, women, and children upon earth, juftly to accufe me with ever having feen me drunk, heard me fwear, utter a curse, or speak one obfcene word, (much less that I ever made it my practice.) I fpeak this to God's glory, that has ever preferved me from the power of thofe pollutions, and that from a child begot an hatred in me towards them. But there is nothing more common, than when men are of a more fevere life

than

than ordinary, for loose perfons to comfort themselves with the conceit, That they were once as THEY are;' as if there were no collateral, or oblique line of the compass, or globe, men may be faid to come from to the ARCTICK pole, but directly and immediately from the ANTARCTICK. Thy words fhall be thy burden, and I trample thy flander as dirt under my feet.

J. R. Well, Mr. Penn, I have no ill will towards you; your father was my friend, and I have a great deal of kindness for you.

W. P. But thou haft an ill way of expreffing it. You are grown too high to confider the plea of those you call your forefathers, for liberty of conscience against the Papifts, Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley, Bradford, &c. It was then plea good enough; "My "confcience won't let me go to mafs," and "My "confcience wills that I fhould have an English "Teftament."

But that fingle plea for feparation, then reasonable, is now by you, that pretend to fucceed them, adjudged unreasonable and factious.

I fay, fince the only just cause of the first revolt from Rome, was a diffatisfaction in point of confcience, you cannot reasonably perfecute others who have right to the fame plea, and allow that to be warrantable.

J. R. But you do nothing but ftir up the people to fedition, and there was one of your friends that told me, you preached fedition, and meddled with the government.

W. P. We have the unhappiness to be mifreprefented, and I am not the leaft concerned therein: bring me the man that will dare to justify this accufation to my face; and if I am not able to make it appear that it is both my practice, and all my friends, to instill principles of peace and moderation, (and only to war againft fpiritual wickedness, that all men may be brought to fear God and work righteousness) I shall contentedly undergo the fevereft punishment all your laws can expofe me to.

And

And as for the king, I make this offer, That if any living can make appear, directly or indirectly, from the time I have been called a Quaker, (fince from thence you date me feditious) I have contrived or acted any thing injurious to his perfon, or the English government, I fhall fubmit my perfon to your utmoft cruelties, and esteem them all but a due recompence. It is hard, that I being innocent, fhould be reputed guilty! But the will of God be done! I accept of bad report as well as good.

J. R. Well, I muft fend you to Newgate for fix months; and when they are expired, you will come

out.

W. P. Is that all? Thou well knoweft a larger imprifonment has not daunted me: I accept it at the hand of the Lord, and am contented to fuffer his will. Alas! you mistake your intereft; you will miss your aim; this is not the way to compafs your ends.

J. R. You bring yourself into trouble: You will be the heading of parties, and drawing people after you.

W. P. Thou mistakest, there is no fuch way as this to render men remarkable: you are angry that I am confiderable, and yet you take the very way to make me fo, by making this bustle and stir about one peaceable perfon.

J. R. I wish your adhering to these things do not convert you to fomething at laft.

W. P. I would have thee and all men to know, that I fcorn that religion which is not worth fuffering for, and able to fuftain those that are afflicted for it: mine is; and whatever may be my lot for my conftant profeffion of it, I am no-ways careful, but refigned to answer the will of God, by the lofs of goods, liberty, and life itself. When you have all, you can have no more, and then perhaps you will be contented, and by that you will be better informed of our innocency. THY religion PERSECUTES, and mine FORGIVES: and I defire my GOD to forgive you all, that are concerned in my commitment, and I leave you all in perfect charity, wifhing your everlasting salvation.

J. R.