ject the better. But then they were im- vernment--that the members of the Estamediately answered that the Irish Roman blished Church were in the minority, and Catholics were worse than any other Ro- that the Roman Catholic Government had, man Catholics on the face of the earth- in a moment of kindness and benevolence, that they were more unmanageable, more proposed such a measure as that before intractable, than any others. But why their Lordships, and that the six and a half were they so? For the sake of argument, millions of Roman Catholics opposed it, but not because it was his own opinion- what would they say? Why, they would for the sake of argument he would allow denounce them, and most properly, as that they were more unmanageable and bigoted, intolerant, and deficient in Chrisintractable. But why was it so? Be- tian charity. There would be a cry against cause they the Protestants, had made such intolerance and justly so; and he (the them so. It was said that in Canada Bishop of Norwich) would be the first to they upheld the Roman Catholic re- lead in it. He would not trespass longer ligion, because Canada was a conquered on their Lordships' time-it was his intencountry. But Ireland was also a con- tion to vote for the measure, first, because quered country. It was conquered by he considered it a religious question, inasHenry II., and had been treated as a con- much as it was associated with justice, with quered province from that time to the pre-equity. He would vote for it, because he sent. That was the truth, and could not considered it an act of Christian duty, inbe denied. Could they be surprised when asmuch as it was in accordance with the it was known how they had been treated, practice of that noble and prominent feathat they should regard the established re-ture of our Saviour's doctrine to "do unto ligion, beautiful and mild as its doctrines were, "as through a glass darkly," and that they viewed such religion with suspicion, or something worse? Another argument that had been used was, that their religion was unchanged and immutable; but although in the letter and in theory they were unchanged, in practice it was not so. He would state one fact to show their Lordships how differently Roman Catholics acted on the Continent. In the Grand Duchy of Baden, where there was a large Lutheran and Episcopalian congregation, and also a large congregation of the member of the Church of Rome, what did the bishop of the Roman Catholic Church do? Did he crush the Lutherans, or oppress the Church of England congregation? No such thing. He sent for the chief rector of the town and commanded him to open his church, and at eight o'clock in the morning the mass and service of the Church of Rome was performed; the Lutherans then performed their service; and twice in the day that same church was opened for the morning and evening service of the members of the Church of England. He was not prepared to say or admit that such a thing would be either practicable or even desirable, considering the habits, manners and feelings of this country; but to the principle on which the Roman Catholic bishop acted, he The Earl of Mornington said, he was of thought there might be some approxima- opinion that no measure could be better tion. He would use one more argument adapted to conciliate the great Conservabearing on the subject, namely, supposing tive Catholic body than the Bill which Ireland to be under a Roman Catholic Go- was now before them. It was a measure

others as we would be done by." He would vote for it because he thought it an experiment in the right direction. He was in favour of education under any form he might say, but more especially under any form where religion was inculcated, as it must elicit truth; and as truth was elicited-he trusted the noble Lords who were members of the Roman Catholic religion would pardon him, but he spoke with sincerity as a Protestant-as education advanced truth was elicited, and in proportion as truth was elicited the laity of the Roman Catholic persuasion would rise as one man-hand to hand, and heart to heart, to overcome the thraldom of the priesthood, under which they were at present groaning. The measure was one which for a time, under existing prejudices and passions, might not be duly appreciated; but he trusted the time would soon come when it would be estimated in its true light, and that it would be hailed as a blessing by future generations, by their children's children, as one of the most wise and benevolent, expedient and useful, that was ever propounded in the 19th century. He cordially thanked the Government for bringing forward a measure which the nation had long wished for, and a measure of justice for which Ireland would be grateful.

which, without wounding Protestant feel- Emancipation Act of 1829 was agreed to. ing, would advance the great principle of This was part of a great cause, and as policy which they had already recognised they had already agreed to the Act of in their legislation with respect to their Catholic Emancipation, they were now, in Catholic fellow subjects, and was well his opinion, bound to carry out the princalculated to add to the grandeur and ciples of that Act by such a measure as stability of this great Empire. Amongst this. Looking at it, therefore, as a benethe many arguments which had been used ficial measure, and as part of a wise and against this measure, was the old one that just system, he would give it his support. had reference to the view which the Ca- He had attentively listened to the debates tholics held of their oath, and the influence in their Lordships' House for the last two of the Pope over their civil duties; but nights; and he would remark, with respect that question was settled many years ago to those who opposed the Bill, that they by Mr. Pitt, who proposed several ques- by that opposition expressed their desire tions to the Colleges of the Sorbonne, to exclude the Roman Catholics from poLouvain, and Salamanca, with a view to litical power; for what other tendency ascertain the charges which were then could refusing them education have than made against the Catholics, on the subject to exclude them from power? The real of the power of the Pope over the civil objection to the Roman Catholic, he unduties or allegiance of Roman Catholics. derstood was, that it was a bad faith; but The first question was, whether the Pope, when the Roman Catholic religion was imor Cardinals, or any body or individuals of pressed on the minds of men of education, the Church of Rome, had any civil autho- it was a very sublime religion; and the rity, or power, or jurisdiction, or pre- members of the Anglican Church, who, eminence whatever, in the realm of Eng- being well educated, did not respect the land? The next question was, whether Catholic faith, were not wise as regarded the Pope, or Cardinals, or any body, or the Anglican religion. He thought the individuals in the Church of Rome, could fear which existed in the minds of some absolve or dispense any of His Majesty's persons, as to giving the Pope influence subjects from their oath of allegiance un- in this country, was totally unfounded; der any pretext whatever? And the third and he would remind their Lordships, was, whether there was any principle or that in the countries with which there was tenet in the Roman Catholic faith by a concordat, the Pope had less influence which Roman Catholics were justified in than the Archbishop of Canterbury had not keeping faith with heretics, or other in England, independent of the Crown. persons who differed from them in reli- He would remind those who had that gious opinions, or whether the Pope or fear of the Pope's influence, that the Cardinals claimed any authority in this Pope was anxious to put down the agicountry? The answer to those questions tation on the subject of the Repeal of was in the negative, they abandoning the the Union, and desirous that the Irish idea of the Pope's supremacy; and if that Charitable Bequests Act (which had were so clearly settled in the time of Mr. been so much opposed by the Roman Pitt, why was the charge renewed at the Catholics in Ireland) should pass. He present day? Mr. Pitt at that time en- repeated that he looked upon this as an tertained the idea of proposing the eman-excellent measure, and one well calculated cipation of the Catholics; but he was to preserve the tranquillity of Ireland. obliged to postpone it in consequence of If they took a large and comprehensive the political events of the time. However, view of this important subject, they would although he postponed the emancipation perceive that it was merely following out of the Catholics in consequence of these a wise and just course of policy which they events, yet he settled the question regard- had already commenced; and if all parties ing the obligations of an oath on the Ro- could get rid of their prejudices, and man Catholics, and the alleged belief by looked at with an impartial judgment, he them of the Pope's supremacy in this was satisfied it would meet with general country. He was rejoiced to find the support. The right rev. Prelate who spoke Government bringing forward a measure last had alluded in terms of just commenlike this, which was founded in sound dation to the liberality which characpolicy, for surely it was good policy to terized the conduct of the Catholic bishop carry out fully the principles on which the at Baden; but he had not dwelt on that

circumstance with sufficient force; for there was not a single town in Germany in which a similar state of good feeling amongst Lutherans, Calvinists, and Roman Čatholics, did not exist. The persons of different persuasions in Germany lived together in brotherly love, and were remarkable at the same time for the attention with which each observed the duties of his own persuasion. It was most desirable that such a system of liberality in religious feeling should be encouraged; and he, looking on this as a measure calculated to carry out a sound and liberal policy, felt bound to support it.

the petitioners were not exclusively Dissenters, though he had no doubt that the Protestant Dissenters of this country had expressed themselves loudly and generally against the Bill; and he must remind noble Lords opposite that he had seen the times when they treated the petitions of Dissenters with a great deal more respect, and attached much more weight to them than they did on the present occasion. But petitions had been sent up from the clergy of the Establishment, and from the Church of Scotland, as well as from the two Universities. [Lord Monteagle: Neither.] There had been petitions to the House of Commons.

Lord Brougham: No, certainly not; a great number of members of the University of Cambridge had signed a memorial in favour of the Bill.

Lord Colchester: At any rate, the petitions from various parts of the country, and from Dissenters, as well as members of the Established Church, against the Bill, were sufficient to show how general the feeling of opposition to it was. He contended that it never was intended by the Irish Parliament that Maynooth College should be endowed by the State. There was nothing in the debates of the day to indicate such an intention. Moreover, the Commissioners were empowered to receive donations and subscriptions from charitable persons for the support of the College, which would hardly have been the case, if it was to be maintained by the State. Then, again, in the 10th Section of the original Act for granting 9,000l., it was declared to be to "establish" the College, not a grant to be made from year to year for its maintenance. Again, the Statute of George IV., reciting the former Act, said "Whereas a seminary has been established;" not endowed. In 1799, the grant was not made, being thrown out by the Irish House of Lords; and in 1808, the Protestant feeling was so strong against it that it was proposed to take it away; but Mr. Perceval did not accede to the proposition. These circumstances proved that an endowment of Maynooth had never been intended. The whole argument of the noble Duke (Wel

Lord Colchester said, that as four Peers had followed each other in speaking in favour of the Bill, he might urge a claim to be heard on the other side; for he felt it his duty to oppose the second reading of the Bill. He would occupy their Lordships' attention for a short period, while he expressed his strong feeling of objection to the measure; but he felt it to be his duty not to let the Bill pass without expressing that objection, and stating the grounds on which it was based. He wished he could induce their Lordships to pause before they agreed to that measure; but he should not enter at large into the question of policy, which had been argued by a noble Lord and a right rev. Prelate on the previous evening, but confine himself in the observations he had to make to the simple question of the present state of Maynooth, and the probable benefits and evils that might result from the measure. He did not shrink from saying, that, beyond agreeing in what had been stated with regard to the political disadvantages of the measure, he coincided with many of those who had sent their petitions up to their Lordships' House objecting, on religious principles, to endowing the clergy of an antagonistic Church to the Church to which he belonged. He called the Roman Catholic Church antagonistic to the Church of England, because the latter rested on the Scriptures alone, on the simple Word of God, while the former introduced other authorities, and rested on the traditions of men. He believed, with a noble Duke who had spoken from the cross benches, that the numerous petitions which had been pre-lington) and the noble Earl the late Secsented to their Lordships' House were not merely the effect of a clamour raised for a moment, but that they expressed the real feeling of a large portion of the people of England and Scotland. He believed that

retary for Ireland, seemed to rest on the intention of the Government to provide for a sufficient number of priests for the whole Roman Catholic population of that country out of the public funds; and it

was stated, with regard to the present professors, and increase those benefits to Bill, that the present number of priests the students, for which the Roman Cathowas not sufficient; as if those who framed lic gentry did not think it worth while to the Bill considered that they were bound give their money. He thought that not to supply the whole number that might only should the Roman Catholic gentry be wanted at any time. This was, indeed, support it, but that those Protestant landcarrying the argument in favour even of lords who were so much in favour of this endowment to the extreme. But the cha- measure should also lend it their assistance. racter of the institution was monastic, the He did not see that any advantage would students being confined for five days out be derived from the alteration with regard of the seven, being allowed to go out to the visitors; nor did he believe that the under superintendence on two days in student would receive any better educathe week only, and on some occasions they tion than formerly; nor that anything was were not permitted to converse with each improved, except the salaries of the proother. It was, therefore, an institution not fessors and the comforts of the scholars. deserving of the support of this Protestant Though the sum had been voted for many and free country. The students were se years, it was never too late to object to that lected by the Roman Catholic bishops, which was wrong. An annual grant, too, and placed in that College under its re- was a very different thing from a gift in strictions for seven years; after which they perpetuity, as the Government would soon returned to the place whence they came. find, if they attempted to make the Navy Therefore they had not the means of ob- and Army Estimates permanent, instead of taining that knowledge of the world and annual. As to this being a healing meaof human life which was calculated to sure, it would produce greater dissatisfacmake them efficient teachers of their flocks. tion in the country than ever. But it was It was stated that the College did not asked, what was to be done with 6,000,000 possess adequate accommodation and of Roman Catholics? He would say, comfort for the students. That was to be educate them, but not at Maynooth. He attributed in a great measure to the Ro- greatly approved of the principle of the man Catholics themselves; for why had Irish Colleges Bill, and wished to see a they not, in the spirit of the Act by which grant for educating the laity of Ireland; that College was established, come for- he could say that he was most anxious to ward with their subscriptions and donations see that country great and flourishing. to support it? It was clear that the Roman Catholics of Ireland did not consider such an institution as one for the maintenance of which they should give their money. If Roman Catholics cried out so much for the education of their clergy, why did they not set the example? Or, if they did not choose to support their own College for that purpose, why should they this Protestant country to do it? But while complaints were made of the poverty of the students, the Roman Catholic authorities had gone so far towards assisting them as to divide one small allowance between two students. The Roman Catholic prelates, it appeared, were now objecting to the students being taught logic, moral philosophy, and history, except by Roman Catholic professors in other institutions which were contemplated. Did not this show that they wished to give a certain tinge to the instruction, and to divert logic, moral philosophy, and history from their pure and legitimate purpose? With respect to the Bill before the House, it certainly would give larger salaries to the

call upon

Lord Monteagle: My Lords, I rejoice to have given way to the noble Lord who has just sat down (Lord Colchester), more especially as the claim which he advanced for being heard is to the friends of the Bill a very cheering one; namely, the preponderance in numbers of the speakers in favour of the Bill; an important admission to be made by one of its strongest opponents. I venture to submit to your Lordships, whether the preponderance in argument has not hitherto been, at the least, as great as the numerical preponderance? This singular complaint of the want of earnestness and of numbers among our opponents, and made, too, by themselves, will I trust, lead to good conpeople who have been unfortunately imsequences in Ireland, and will prove to a pressed with a contrary belief, that both in your Lordships' House and elsewhere, a great majority of their fellow subjects are sincerely desirous to do their duty towards Ireland, and to promote in every way the well-being of that country and of its inhabitants. I find another and a most important illustration of the same truth in

the fact, that the Bill has hitherto been sup-, to the foundation of Maynooth by Mr. ported by a greater relative number of Grattan, Mr. Burke, and Lord FitzwilEnglish Peers, than of Peers connected liam. But if those great men are to be by birth or property with Ireland. If this objected to by our opponents as incommeasure is considered important in Ireland petent witnesses, the evidence of the Earl -and it cannot be otherwise considered- Camden on this subject must be admitted if it is regarded as an act of justice, of to be conclusive. His prejudices were wise policy, and of favour and generosity, not likely to have run very strongly in extended not only to the people of Ireland, favour of a College proposed to be estabut to the religious faith and to the clergy blished by his predecessor. And yet the of the great majority of that people; it words selected by the Earl Camden, as should be for ever remembered, that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to express his British advocates of the Bill have been sense of the important step which had the most numerous, and that in zeal and been taken in establishing Maynooth, were earnestness they have not been surpassed the most precise and emphatic that could by any Irish supporter of this excellent have been used on such an occasion. “I and liberal proposition. This fact should congratulate you," said Lord Camden to be most gratifying and most welcome to the Irish Parliament, in his speech from all friends of the Union between the two the Throne in 1795, "I congratulate you, countries; it is a conclusive proof that that a wise foundation has been laid for there is not in Parliament, as there ought the education of the Roman Catholic clergy not to be, any severance of feeling between at home." Observe the force and appropriBritish and Irish Members; that there is ateness of the word "foundation." "A word not, among either, any slackness in the more full of meaning could not have been endeavour to perform their public duty; selected; and it could not have been embut on the contrary, that there exists ployed on any occasion, or by any speaker, amongst all an equal desire to advance the more peculiarly calculated to enhance its real interests, to secure the permanent real import and signification. No term in welfare, to respect the feelings, and I may the English language could have conveyed be permitted to add, even, to consult the a more distinct pledge of the intentions of honest prejudices of the people of Ireland. the Government of Mr. Pitt. I dwell on This is neither confined to race nor to party. this, because the original views of the It is to be found among the English and British and the Irish Governments, in the among the Scotch, among the Whigs, year 1795, are most material to be carethe Tories, the Conservatives and the Radi-fully borne in mind; nor should the cals. However we may differ about the means, there is no difference between us in our desire of serving Ireland. I therefore beg most respectfully to tender my humble acknowledgments, as an Irishman, to the Peers of England and of Scotland who have supported this Bill; I thank them, not only for their advocacy of a measure right in itself, but for the additional strength which they have thereby given to the Legislative Union. I beg more particularly to thank my noble Friend (Earl of Carnarvon), whose eloquent and impressive speech, delivered last night, brought the whole subject before the House, in a manner which cannot easily be forgotten by those who had the good fortune to hear him-a speech which I trust may be long and affectionately remembered by the people of Ireland. It has been urged by those who oppose the Bill, that the original founders of the College never contemplated its permanent endowment by the State. A greater mistake cannot well be committed. We know the importance attached

names and characters of the real founders of Maynooth, nor the general scope of their declared policy, be forgotten. On the present occasion they are not only authorities to which we may appeal, but they are guides we ought to follow. On this part of the subject, namely, on the origin of Maynooth, I beg leave very respectfully to differ from the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) who has introduced this Bill; though I do not differ with him as to the conclusions to which he has arrived. In differing from him, I admit, however, the policy of his argument as bearing upon a class of persons whose support he is desirous of obtaining. But I cannot adopt his views respecting the origin of Maynooth: the facts he states are entirely true, and they ought to be borne in mind in discussing the question; but there are other facts still more important, which the noble Duke has omitted, and which I must be allowed to point out, desirous as I am that this measure should produce its full effect upon the people of both countries, and that it should be gene