cuments contained the specific mention of a British broker and a British house.

ACADEMICAL INSTITUTIONS (IRELAND).] Sir James Graham moved that the House should resolve into a Committee, for the purpose of passing a Resolution on which to found a grant necessary to the formation of Colleges in Ireland. He proposed that the Vote should be taken pro formá, and the debate on the measure be post

Mr. Milner Gibson said, that the name of the Agnes had been mentioned as one of the vessels employed in this traffic. Now, he had been authorized to give the most formal and unqualified contradiction to that statement; and he thought that the right hon. Baronet, in answering a ques-poned till Monday next. It was necessary tion, might have abstained from casting that such a Resolution should be passed even the remotest imputation upon parties before the money clauses of the Bill could who had had no opportunity whatever of be inserted. rebutting the charges.

Sir R. Peel then read the extract from the document which had been referred to, omitting, however, to mention the names of the broker and the merchant.

Mr. Hume said, that the right hon. Baronet had not answered one part of the question, and therefore, he would put another question. He wished distinctly to know whether official information had come under the notice of the Government that any naval officer belonging to Her Majesty's service, or any British subject had been engaged in the Slave Trade?

Sir R. Peel said, he had not the slightest information on the subject.

THE LAW OF THE CHANNEL ISLANDS.] Mr. Roebuck wished to know whether, from circumstances which had lately come before the Home Secretary, that right hon. Gentleman was of opinion that the state of the law in the Channel Islands called for inquiry; and, if so, what he, as the adviser of Her Majesty, having power, not only of inquiry, but of legislation, proposed to do?

On the Question that the Speaker leave the Chair,

Mr. W. Smith O'Brien rose to offer no opposition to the Motion for the Speaker leaving the Chair; but he was anxious to submit to the Government, by way of Bill, what he thought he might state to friendly suggestion, and in favour of the be the opinion of the people of Ireland upon this subject. They were unanimous in considering the subject of the education of the people of Ireland to be well worthy the attention of the Legislature. They were desirous that a portion of the Irish revenue should be appropriated to that purpose. But it remained to be considered whether this institution should be founded upon the principle of giving a united education or a separate education. As to the preference to be given on either side, it was not open to him to speak, because he had always avowed himself an advocate of the system of mixed education. The proposed plan by Her Majesty's Government had been submitted to the Roman Catholic bishops, and they had suggested several Sir James Graham said, that circum- modifications which, he might say, had stances had come to his knowledge with received the concurrence, in substance, of respect to the administration of justice in a very large portion of the Catholic people the Channel Islands, which induced him to in Ireland. There was one point which think that some inquiry, should be insti- he believed the public opinion in Ireland, tuted. He was not, however, disposed to and to a great extent the public opinion in assent to the form of inquiry proposed by England, was entirely agreed upon, namely, the hon. and learned Member, of a Com- that means of religious instruction ought mittee of Inquiry of that House. He had to be provided for in this Bill. Upon that thought it, however, his duty to address a point they felt-and he believed most letter officially to the President of the justly-that the present Bill was defective. Council, recommending that the pleasure How far the Amendments intended to be of Her Majesty in Council should be taken introduced by the right hon. Gentleman whether a Commission of Inquiry might (Sir James Graham) would meet that obnot be issued into the mode of the adminis- jection, and remedy that defect, of course tration of the criminal law in the Channel he could not tell. But the early day apIslands, and of the constitution of the tri- pointed for the Committee on the Bill bunals by which that law was administered. would render it utterly impossible for the Mr. Roebuck did not altogether agree public in Ireland to form a judgment upon with the right hon. Baronet as to the ine-it. He, however, would fairly warn the Goligibility of a Committee of Inquiry in that House. VOL. LXXXI.

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vernment, that if they did not bring forward a measure which would be on this

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Colleges, who must necessarily possess great influence, directly and indirectly, upon the education of the Catholic students. He was not, however, at all unfavourable to this Bill; on the contrary, he might take some pride to himself for hav

which the proposition for providing academical education for the people of Ireland emanated. The Committee was appointed on the Motion of the hon. Member for Waterford, and he (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) had the honour of seconding the Motion. He had also the honour of having been an overseer of a great seminary established in his own county, and his constituents were extremely anxious upon the subject. They were most desirous that such an institution should be established; but, at the same time, he confessed he would rather forego all the advantages which these institutions promised to the country, and all the satisfaction which those with whom he was connected would derive from them, than be a party to establishments upon the terms proposed by Her Majesty's Government. He offered these observations, not from the vain hope of inducing the House to adopt his views; but he submitted them to Her Majesty's Government for their own sakes. They professed to be desirous to bring forward measures conciliatory towards Ireland. He would now tell them, that if they persisted in this measure, as it was at present framed, so far from doing that which would be satisfactory to the great bulk of the people, they would lay fresh ground for political discontent and continued agitation. The result of this measure, in his opinion, would be, that the people of Ireland would feel that the Government had expended the money of Ireland-["No"]-yes, the money of Ireland: He would repeat, that the people would believe that the Government would cause the money of Ireland to be applied to the endowment of an institution which would be attended with no possible good whatever.

point satisfactory to the Catholic bishops and people of Ireland, the Bill would be found a dead letter altogether. He confessed that to him it appeared that, in bringing forward a measure affecting the great body of the Catholics of Ireland, it would only have been becoming to haveing been a Member of the Committee from taken means to have consulted the Catholic priesthood of that country. But, so far from doing so, Her Majesty's Government seemed to make it a matter of pride not to have done so. But upon such a question as this it was for the clerical authorities to express their opinion, rather than the laity. But with respect to the 10th Clause, the laity had expressed, and that very emphatically, their opinion; and he could tell Her Majesty's Government, that he had not heard one single opinion throughout Ireland which was not unfavourable to the clause as it now stood. What might be the best mode of appointing the professors, was a question he would not venture to enter upon; but upon this point all parties were united, that it was disgraceful to the Government to make these institutions a Government job; and such would be their character if Clause 10 stood as it was now framed. He need not tell the Government that they did not possess the confidence of the people of Ireland; and, therefore, in a matter like this, where confidence was involved, Her Majesty's Ministers had no right to expect that the people of Ireland should entrust to them powers unaccompanied by such securities as would satisfy the natural jealousy of a people who had been treated as the Irish people had been. They could not forget that the present Government had made an attempt, which, however, had signally failed, to put down the expression of the national opinion in Ireland; and that they attempted to effect that object by means which it was not necessary now for him to characterize. He was bound to tell them, that a strong sense remained on the minds of the people of Ireland of this attempt on the part of the Government; and, under these circumstances, he would not be a party to Mr. Colquhoun wished to ask his right placing in their hands powers which might hon. Friend a question with respect to an be abused. Referring to their acts with addition which he purposed making to the regard to the appointments under Lord proposed Bill; but before he did so, he Normanby's Government, would it not wished to make a few remarks upon the justify him (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) in ob- speech of the hon. Member who had just jecting to place in their hands such a power sat down. That hon. Gentleman had said as that which they now claimed to them-it was his most earnest desire to see a Colselves? The Bill, as it at present stood, lege established in the town which he regave at all times, and to all Governments, presented, yet he had allowed that House the power to appoint professors to these to go on for weeks discussing the present

as a Member of Parliament had the most direct and important interest; for, what was it? It was a Motion to authorize the Government to apply the public money to the support of these new institutions. But for the necessity of applying public money to these Colleges, the Government would

question, without taking his proper position as a Member of the Legislature, or seeming to interest himself in it; and now he came forward, and, while confessing that his expectations were not very sanguine with regard to influencing the House towards his opinions, he denounced the proposed measure. The hon. Gentle-not have had any occasion to come to man was unquestionably deserving of re- Parliament at all. In regard to what had spect and consideration; but he at once fallen from the hon. Member for Limerick superseded the labours of the hon. Member (Mr. W. S. O'Brien), as to the House for Waterford, and of all those hon. Mem-being about to appropriate Irish money, bers who had devoted their attention for he (Mr. Gibson) did not like these disyears to this subject. Being one of the fifteen tinctions between Irish and English money. Members of the Committee over which the The House of Commons was going to aphon. Member for Waterford presided, the propriate a portion of the general revenue hon. Member (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) took of the United Kingdom, and the only upon himself to say, that that measure question they had to ask themselves was, which had been recognised as satisfactory what was the purpose to which they were by the hon. Member for Waterford, was a going to apply it? Were they justified in measure which he, in the supreme position thus appropriating a portion of the general of a dictator, or rather as a deputy dic-fund of the United Kingdom? For his tator, declared to be wholly unsatisfactory. own part, he was beset by these education He, who came fresh from Conciliation Hall-he, who had abandoned his duty in questions, and by the various opinions upon the subject of endowments. He that House in order to carry on that most was told that it was very questionable mischievous agitation in Ireland, which was now drying up the sources of its pros- for the advancement of learning was the whether bodies incorporated by the State perity, preventing the application of capi-best mode of accomplishing the object. It tal, deranging new schemes of improvement, and impeding the employment of was feared that these corporations might labour-he, thus coming fresh from Con- become, as others had proved to be, rather ciliation Hall, told them that this measure asylums in which prejudice and ignorance was to be the basis for increased agitation. would find shelter, than institutions for the advancement of learning. But he He could not congratulate the hon. Member upon the position he had assumed upon hoped that these institutions which were this question. He would now ask his about to be established in Ireland, howright hon. Friend whether, by the Amend-ever just might have been the objection ment he intended to introduce into this to former institutions, would, in their conBill, he meant to make it compulsory on sequences, prove the means of advancethe student to attend a place of worship ment in learning. One reason, in his opiand receive religious instruction? nion, why Colleges endowed by the State did little for the advancement of learning was this-that everything was done in the way of erecting the building, and of putting professors into it with an independent income; but when they had done that, they had really done nothing to induce those professors to exert themselves for the benefit of their pupils. He looked upon it that all mankind wished to live at ease--that no man made exertion without necessity; and, therefore, he looked upon it that professors with independent incomes, and who did not rely for success on the advancement of their pupils, by the receipt of fees, were not likely to be very zealous to promote the learning of those pupils. He could, therefore, have wished to have had these professors supported

Sir James Graham said, that the words he proposed to insert in the Bill were for the purpose of removing all doubt with respect to the operation of this Act, either as it regarded the terms of incorporation or the by-laws. It would be quite open to the governing body to make any regulation with respect to the students attending divine worship.

Mr. Milner Gibson felt it his duty, as a Member of the House of Commons, to protest against the language used by the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in calling this a mere formal stage of the Bill. On the contrary, he (Mr. Gibson) considered it the most important stage of the measure. It was, especially, that stage in which he,

partly by salaries from the State, and partly by fees derived by their own efforts and exertions. He was afraid that as this was not the system to be adopted, these new Colleges would fall into the same state as existed in Oxford and Cambridge. Hon. Members, no doubt, recollected the description given by Mr. Gibbon of his tutor. Mr. Gibbon said

consolation in fitting places. It was said that they could not teach secular knowledge without mixing it with religious instruction. But in his opinion these two things were entirely distinct. He could not understand why they could not teach arithmetic, astronomy, or mathematics, without making these the medium of religious instruction.

Mr. Vernon Smith did not wish to pursue the argument suggested by his hon. Friend, because he deemed it to be inopportune; but he wished to ask the right hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) whether by allowing this Resolution to pass now, for the purpose of inserting the clauses, it would prevent any hon. Member hereafter proposing that the money should be taken from another source.

Sir James Graham said, his impression was, that in a Bill of this description it was not possible to insert clauses which made a charge on the Consolidated Fund without a previous Resolution in a Committee of the whole House. But this did not preclude any Gentleman from rejecting the clause when the Bill itself was considered in Committee. As he understood the matter, the only limit was that no larger charge could be proposed. A less sum might be proposed, or the clause might be objected to altogether, or, as he understood, it might be proposed to fix the charge upon any other source.

"That he was a gentleman who well remembered that he had a salary to receive, but only forgot that he had a duty to perform." Such he believed would be the case with the professors of these Colleges, if they did not make those professors depend partly for their incomes upon their pupils. But there was one part of this Bill which he most cordially approved of. It was that they, the civil Government of the country, had not allowed themselves to be used for the purpose of any religious prejudices or preferences. The cry which had been got up against these Colleges on the ground of the Bill not making provision for religion, was not the cry of the people. The cry was raised by the priests, who were not the representatives of the community, but simply of the ecclesiastical body. They might depend upon it that until the civil Government of the country persevered in resisting these attempts at making educational endowments measures of encouragement of priestly power and proselytism, they would never be able to accomplish any general Mr. Speaker said, that the authors of plan of education. He looked upon the the Bill had no power to insert such priests of the Roman Catholic Church, clauses as were necessary in this Bill, unand, he might say, the priests of the Eng-less they were previously instructed by a lish Church, and of all churches, with Committee of the House. But when the regard to education, with great jealousy. Bill itself was in Committee, then it would The cultivation of reason, and the pursuit be competent for the Committee to reject of science and of philosophy, were not the the clauses altogether, or to reduce the appropriate avocations of priests. And amount; but they could not charge the until the civil power could prevent those sum upon any other public fund. institutions which were intended for secular teaching, from becoming instruments for proselytising the people from one church to another, he was afraid the benefits that would result from such institutions would be very limited. For these reasons he was in favour of not allowing priests to interfere with education in any manner whatever. He would not recom-endowing any body of men for the purmend it in the case of his own child, nor as a measure of legislation. It was not within the sphere of the priests to interfere with the teaching of science, mathematics, philosophy, or any secular thing. Their province was to minister religious

Mr. Roebuck quite agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, that this question ought not to be passed over as a mere formal vote. It could not be doubted that this, of all others, was the most proper time for discussing the principle of the measure. The hon. Member for Manchester said that he was against

pose of instruction. Education was one of the means of promoting good actions, and of leading meu to practise virtue. Administration of justice was another means. There were institutions for both purposes, and he was willing to endow

were terms no doubt, prepared and studied in Conciliation Hall, and were of about the same value as most that was said there. Nobody seemed to recollect how the friends of such measures as these, setting aside their own feelings in favour of their own religion, had had to combat the opinions of their constituents, and to guide them to toleration, and after doing all this they were to be greeted and repaid by obloquy in every shape. The House was told from Conciliation Hall, that it was attempting to corrupt the intellect of Ireland; in what state of corruption or incorruption must that intellect be which suggested the accusation! The constituents of the United Empire sent Members to Parliament to watch over the interests of a great people; and he considered that those Irish Members who, instead of remaining absent from their places and their duties, had shared the difficulty of the task, and had braved the momentary ill-feeling of such as pursued a different line of conduct had done themselves great honour. He revered them for the sacrifice they had thus made; but he could not understand what should at one moment take man to Conciliation Hall, exciting groundless discontent, bitter religious animosities, national hatred, and vulgar prejudice, and in the next bring him back to the House of Commons, and fancy

them; he was willing to endow national education, and national courts of justice. He had voted for the endowment of Maynooth; he did not question whether the doctrines taught were true or false; but being called upon to vote for the establishment of a general system of education, it was of the first necessity that he should ask himself how was he to meet the conflicting opinions of the people with respect to religion. In two ways: by endowing separate establishments for every religion; or to appropriate the money of the State for secular education alone, leaving it to the ecclesiastical bodies and to the parents of the children to direct them in the ways of religion beyond the walls of the establishment. The House had determined upon the last mode. But he was now met with a strange phenomenon. He was startled by seeing the hon. Member for Limerick here. He (Mr. Roebuck) had been in the habit of looking into the papers, and he read that there was one William Smith O'Brien who gave his constant attendance at the Conciliation Hall, and had there declared, in the name of the people of Ireland (there was nothing like the three tailors of Tooleystreet!)-that he would never appear again in the British House of Commons. [Mr. W. S. O'Brien: It is a mistake.] Certainly it was not his business to notice every speech made in Conciliation Halling, in spite of the venom he had uttered that would indeed fill his head with rubbish; but he (Mr. Roebuck) had a right to assume that the House of Commons had been assailed, not only in that Hall, but by the hon. Gentleman. And what had the hon. Gentleman said upon the present occasion? He had accused the House-and it was an accusation which he (Mr. Roebuck) recollected to have been made by Marat against Roland-the hon. Gentleman had accused the House of Commons of endeavouring, and wishing, and planning to corrupt the intellect of the people of Ireland. The students in these Colleges were to be taught arithmetic, surgery, mathematics, all matters of science, and perhaps even speaking English, and this was what the hon. Member for Limerick called corrupting the intellect of Ireland. It might be very well to get up a few claptraps upon this subject; but when the truth was sifted, it would be seen how worthless were the objections. It was very easy to talk about corrupting the intellect of Ireland; these

elsewhere, that he shall be secure, because armed with the attributes of a Member of Parliament. Was such a man to be allowed to insult the Commons of the British Empire, by repeating the trash he had picked up in Conciliation Hall? Might not those who were attacked turn round and inquire what motive could have led to such conduct, and whether it was to be imputed to anything but disappointed vanity? Unable by the force of his own abilities on a fair stage to acquire power and influence, it seemed as if such a man had resorted to other scenes where it was of easy acquisition, and where he might flutter for a time in a brief and butterfly existence. It was not difficult to understand what the leading spirit of that party was about-his tactics were very intelligible-want was staring him in the face-he was obliged to pander to the appetite of the people of Ireland in order to satisfy his own. The cravings of hunger were strong; and they explained the grovelling and unworthy course that had been