victed of being a member of these socie- | which took place on Friday last upon the ties should be deemed guilty of felony, question of going into a Committee upon and be liable to be imprisoned for two the Irish Education Bill. What succeeded years, and to be branded on the cheek in is also known to the House. In the afterthe manner of military deserters. In one noon of Saturday a carriage stopped at my of the adjoining provinces in China, there door, and the following note was left with was an edict decreeing that if any of the my servant, it being marked outside" Privagabond members of those societies cre- vate and confidential;" it was dated from ated a disturbance and were slain by the the Reform Club, and signed "J. P. people, no inquiry would be made as to Somers:"their deaths, should that take place. He wished to know whether the ordinances of Governor Davis had received the sanction of the Government.

"Sir-Unfortunately, I was not in the House of Commons last night when you spoke in Committee on the Irish Colleges Bill. If I had been present, the necessity of addressMr. G. W. Hope said, that the ordinance ing a Letter like this, which is one of inquiry, to which the hon. Gentleman had referred could not have arisen. But, having been abhad been passed by the Governor in Coun- sent, I am compelled to resort to the Newscil in Hong Kong, for the purpose of put-place, and of the language used; and I beg, paper Reports of the proceedings which took ting down the Triad societies existing in the first instance, to ask you, if the following there. It appeared that these societies words were spoken by you, or words to were a combination of Chinese, acting un- the same effect:-This consideration might der the direct dictation of one individual, have led to what had been witnessed, and whom they were bound by oaths implicitly those who followed in the train of such a to obey; and they were known and leader deserved little respect either for their dreaded as a body of assassins, robbers, position or their intellect? If you used those words, the insult they convey to me, as a and murderers. They were, as set forth Repealer, is plain. My second question therein the edict, the very terror of the people fore is, are you prepared to 'JUSTIFY' them? of China; so much so, that they even le- The meaning of the word I have underlined vied a species of black mail from members I am sure you are too well read in the old of the Government itself. An edict had, history of Chivalry to misinterpret. therefore, been issued by the Emperor, for "P.S. I send a copy of the Morning Chrothe suppression of these Triad and other nicle herewith; marked." passage secret societies. With regard to the form The hon. and learned Gentleman observed, of the ordinance put forth by the Governor that the word "justify" was twice underof Hong Kong, it was in some respects scored, and was proceeding to make some objectionable; at the same time, it was further remarks, when he was interdeemed necessary to suppress these socie- rupted by ties; therefore further instructions would be sent to the Governor, with the view to the issuing of another ordinance. The hon. Gentleman was not strictly correct in saying that it was the practice to mark these persons on the cheek as were deserters in the army. They were marked, but not so as to be visible. He might state that in consequence of there being no power in Hong Kong to punish the Chinese, who were subjects of the Emperor, this Triad society were regarded as superior to all law, and it was felt that there was no security against the conduct of persons acting under their authority.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE-COMPLAINT.] Mr. Roebuck: I rise, Sir, to solicit the attention of the House while I state to it a question relating to a breach of its privileges. It will be in the recollection of the House that I addressed to it some observations in the course of the debate

the

Sir V. Blake, who said, I rise to order. Every hon. Gentleman has an undoubted right to deliver his opinion upon any subject that may be submitted for debate in this House; but I say that he has no right to catechise or lecture any particular Member or set of Members, or utter offensive words. ["Order."}

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Baronet is, most unquestionably, out of order.

Mr. Roebuck continued. On receipt of that note, I immediately wrote an answer, which I delivered myself next morning, to this effect :

"Sir-You shall receive the answer which your letter requires, in the House of Commons, on Monday next; and I now give you the following warning for your guidance at the

same time. I am determined that the free expression of opinion shall not in my person be coerced or checked; and I shall, therefore, take the most stringent and effective means to punish your present menace, and put down all future violence. I hope you are sufficiently

I have first to move, Sir, that the letter of the hon. Member for Sligo be read at the

well read in the laws of your country to un- | other considerations at present, and they derstand this intimation." are many. I sink them, and stand upon my privilege as a Member of this House, to demand of this House that it should protect me. I throw myself upon it for protection-I use the word advisedlyand when we consider all that is going on around us, when we see the vast calami

Table.

Mr. Speaker: Is the hon. Member for Sligo in his place?

Mr. J. P. Somers rose and bowed.

The Clerk at the Table having read the ties which arise out of this barbarous cus

note,

Mr. Roebuck resumed: Now, Sir, I am exceedingly sorry that it falls to my lot to pursue the course which I am about to pursue. But I feel it a paramount duty, not as regards myself, but as regards this House, to move that—

"John Patrick Somers, esq., having sent a challenge to a Member of this House for words spoken by that Member in his place in Parliament, is guilty of contempt, and of a breach of the privileges of this House."

tom, I say that it becomes every man who has a heart that beats with the pulse of courage to take the course which I now take. Assuming, therefore, that the hon. Member will not deny his writing, I move that he is guilty of contempt, and of a breach of the privileges of this House.

Lord Ashley said: I rise with great satisfaction to second the Motion, and in doing so will take the liberty of tendering to the hon. Member for Bath my sincere and heartfelt thanks for having brought it forward. I offer to him not only my thanks, but I think I may say the thanks of a very large body of Gentlemen in this House; and I know that I speak the sen timents also of a very large proportion of my fellow subjects, when I say that I have viewed with disgust and horror the prevalent notion of what is miscalled honour. In this instance we are doubly indebted to the hon. and learned Member for asserting not only a social question, but a great constitutional question; for I can foresee the time when, if this system be introduced into this House, or into any other deliberative assembly, the liberty of speech will be at an end, and hon. Mem

My reason for adopting this course I shall calmly and briefly state. If I regarded myself in the affair, the law would afford me instant protection; and I am quite prepared to throw myself upon the law in such cases. But in this instance it is not myself I have to consider, it is this House, and the privileges of its Members; amongst the most valuable of which is the fair and free expression of their opinions respecting public men and public policy. I claim a right to the free expression of my opinions; and I think I have a right to assume that, in expressing them on the occasion I have alluded to, I committed no breach of the rules of this House, inas-bers will be under the necessity of appealmuch as I was not by you, Sir, or by any hon. Member in the House, called to order. I claim the right to say that I have little regard for the intellect of some public men; but I go further, and say that I entertain little respect for the position which they hold; and one of them comes forward and suggests to me that he should be allowed to shoot at me. Is that a proof of superiority of intellect? Does it support the opposite proposition to that which I endeavoured to establish in this House? But, if it do not, what does it do? It gives to any man having that species of physical courage which shall give him a great chance with a pistol over his antagonist, to assail any man in this House who chooses to do his duty. I think it would be far wiser to adopt the more courageous course of at once meeting a proceeding of this description in the way in which I now meet it. I put aside all

ing, as our ancestors did, not to the influence and force of reason, but to violence and the sword. I, therefore, cordially second the Motion, tendering at the same time, in my own name, and in the names also of the gentlemen of England, and of thousands of his fellow subjects, my warm thanks for his manly and courageous and consistent conduct.

Mr. J. P. Somers then rose and said: Sir, I have no hesitation whatever in withdrawing the letter, which is looked on as an attack upon the hon. and learned Member. It was merely a letter of inquiry. The hon. and learned Member did not condescend to answer those inquiries. I do not call in question his motives for refusing, but I bow with unaffected deference to the decision of this House and of the Chair. I am not one of those who will play with the authority of the House, or attempt a dexterous accommodation of

Friend in his energetic denunciation of this barbarous and unchristian practice, There is not one word used by him that I do not sanction; and I am as opposed to the practice as any man in this House can be. I must at the same time say, that my entire approval of the conduct of the hon. and learned Gentleman is limited to his conduct in this matter. I cannot extend my unqualified approbation to the course he took on Friday night. I feel strongly, that when called to account by a hostile challenge, it was his duty, as a Member of the House, to bring it before the House, instead of yielding to what might be the feeling out of doors; but I feel also that he ought to have guarded himself in the language he addressed to this House.

offensive terms. I take the sense of the Speaker and of the House to be paramount upon all occasions, and will not be one to run counter to them. An opposite course might lead to a great waste of time. I deeply regret that I wrote this letter, and that any matter personal to myself should have occupied the attention of the House for a single moment. If the hon. and learned Gentleman is satisfied with that explanation, I trust the House will be also satisfied; for I do not think I can say anything fuller or more explicit. At the same time, I trust the House will bear with me for a moment whilst I call the hon. and learned Member's attention to observations which I am sure he must regret, and to the coarse imputations which are frequently put forth against certain Mem-Far be it from me from taking upon mybers of this House. Hon. Members must really give me the liberty of saying, that the hon. and learned Member's observations are not always in accordance with I must be permitted to say it-truth. No; I will recall the observation, and will say, with what entitles them to public respect. I now resign myself to the hon. and learned Gentleman. Henceforth he may say anything he pleases of me, or of the party to which I belong. I have to apologize to the House for obtruding myself on its attention; and I once more declare, I regret to have been the cause of occupying its attention for one moment.

self the part of censor of the hon. and learned Member for Bath, I am sure he discharges, in whatever speech he may make, and whatever language he may use, what he conceives to be his duty; but, after the feeling of the House had been shown on the general question, I should not do my duty if I did not say, that I think the terms of his statement were calculated to give offence; and the hon. and learned Gentleman must see that this is not necessary to maintain the freedom of speech in this House. I was in the House on Friday night, and I heard the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman with that attention to which all his speeches ar e justly entitled for their talent and ability; and I thought at the time, that it was calculated needlessly to cause irritation; and I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman will concur with me, that truths may be spoken, and in plain language, and yet that they need not cause irritation beyond the moment.

Sir G. Grey: Nothing, Sir, can be more satisfactory or more ample than the manner in which, during the early part of his observations, the hon. Member for Sligo retracted his letter to the hon. Member for Bath. The casual expression in the latter part dropped from him unawares, and was not intended to qualify that retractation. But as the hon. Member has placed the course he has taken Sir R. Peel: I think, Sir, that the hon. partly on what he conceives to be the Gentleman the Member for Bath has taken general feeling of the House, I should not a course which is consistent with true coudo justice to my own feelings, if I did not rage, and one which he can take without say a few words upon the subject. In any imputation remaining on him; and at common with my noble Friend the Mem- the same time, I think that the hon. Genber for Dorsetshire, I think the course tleman has made every retractation it was pursued this night by the hon. and learned possible for him to make. He has uneMember for Bath is the proper course quivocally declared that he retracts the which every Member, under such circum-letter, he has expressed his deep regret at stances, should always pursue; and I concur in the opinion that the example now, for the second time, set by the hon. and learned Member, will be followed by any other Member who may receive a hostile message for what may have been spoken in debate. I concur also with my noble

having written it, and he has apologized to the House; and he has done what a person who has been betrayed into an act of this kind may, with equal credit to himself, do. Under these circumstances, I trust the hon. and learned Gentleman will see he has received such reparation that

he himself will withdraw the Motion. I think he has set an example which may be worthily followed; and at the same time, I think that the hon. Member who was in error has also set an example, with perfect credit to himself, by making the most ample and best reparation in his power. I trust, therefore, that the hon. and learned Gentleman will not press his Motion.

so he thought the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had taken an erroneous view of the question. He was for supporting all their privileges; if there was one which was more important than any other, it was the freedom of speech in that House; and if there was any manner in which that freedom could be more seriously attacked than in any other, it was by sending a hostile message. He entirely concurred in the opinion that his hon. Friend had shown true courage; but there were many in that House who might have courage, but who might not be in the situation of his hon. Friend, and be able to come there with perfect security to vin

Mr. E. B. Roche did not rise to prolong this unpleasant discussion, on which they must all unwillingly enter; but he trusted he might be allowed to say, that they never would have arrived at this unpleasant state if the House had, as it ought to have done, interfered when the hon. Mem-dicate not himself, but the privileges of ber for Bath made those observations. the House. He considered, therefore, the What was their present position? It was observations of the right hon. Baronet as not the right of any Member of that House misapplied. What they had to consider to make personal observations; and they was, whether this letter was a breach of could not make imputations without creat- the privileges of the House; and they ing unpleasant feelings, and some indig- ought to affirm that it was. When, afternation in the bosoms of those who were wards, the question should come how they treated in this manner. He took it, that were to deal with the hon. Member who it was under these feelings that the hon. sent it, he would be the first to state that Member for Sligo acted in the course he the hon. Member had made every reparahad adopted. He would not express any tion. If it were intended to criminate his opinion on the prudence of that course. hon. and learned Friend for the course he The course of the hon. and learned Mem-took the other evening, it was a wrong ber for Bath might, on the whole, be the prudent and proper course; but he must limit his approval, as the hon. Member for Devonport had done, to the hon. anda former night expressed his opinions. learned Member's conduct that night. The House, however, had its own character to maintain in preventing such unpleasant scenes from occurring; and they ought to stop all that would raise these feelings, either in the House or out of it. He would not go so far as to say that the Speaker ought to get up and stop such remarks; but the House ought to show by strong intimations its own feelings against such exhibitions, and so stop the occurrence of anything unpleasant.

step; they ought not then to try his hon. Friend for imprudence, if they could so call it, in the manner in which he had on

Let him call their attention to the situation in which his hon. Friend was placed : he had been held up elsewhere in language which few Members would endure; and was he not to be at liberty to express his deep sense of the injury he had received, and was the right hon. Baronet to lay down the rule of how his hon. Friend was to express his opinions? If they were to have freedom of speech, every Member must express his own sense of injury in his own way; and if he were wrong, he Mr. Hume said, that no man was a might at once be called to order, as acting greater enemy to the practice of duelling against the rules of the House. They than he was; and he was willing to make ought not to try him for an expression of every allowance for what happened in the opinion, when the question was, what had heat of debate. He spoke feelingly; for been the conduct of another Member tono one, probably, had required more allow-wards him. He humbly submitted that ances in this respect than he had done; but this case was entirely different. Many hon. Members might have received such a letter as that written to his hon. Friend, in such a way as to lead to the destruction of themselves and their families. The House ought not, therefore, to try his hon. Sir R. H. Inglis rose to thank the hon. Friend for his speech the other night; aud | Member for Bath for adopting a course

the House ought to affirm the Motion, that this was a breach of the privileges of the House; and whatever step might be taken afterwards, no one would be disposed to act more tenderly, or with more liberality, than he was.

:

for one was not prepared to consent to the Motion being withdrawn.

Viscount Palmerston: I concur very much in the view just stated by my noble Friend. It is inexpedient for the House to allow the present occasion to pass without expressing its opinion on the principle involved in the question; but I submit that if we pass a Resolution pointing at an individual Member, it will necessarily imply blame incurred and censure deserved. It seems to be the opinion of the House that the apology of my hon. Friend the Member for Sligo is sufficient; he did not dispute his letter-that letter is a breach of privilege-and for that letter such an amends has been made as ought to exempt my hon. Friend from any future proceeding. It seems to me that the

which showed the moral as well as the physical courage that ought to belong to Members of the House. He begged also to thank his noble Friend who seconded the Motion, for the truly noble and Christian manner in which he had reprobated the crime of duelling. He rejoiced in the general concurrence of all sides in this view of the subject; but he suggested, that if the Motion were withdrawn, some entry ought to appear upon the Journals of the House as to the reason why it had been withdrawn that the hon. Member for Sligo had acknowledged his letter, and had expressed his regret at having written it. He hoped that he did not misunderstand the gesture of the hon. Member for Sligo; but the great body of the House collected that he had apologized to it, as well as to the hon. Member for Bath, and had ex-object of all parties will be attained if, pressed his regret at having written it. Less than this would not satisfy the justice of the case. Freedom of expression for opinion was of the utmost value in Parliament; it was an essential privilege; and if any objection were entertained as to what was said by a Member, it ought to be noticed at the time. In the present feeling of the House, and after what had been said by the hon. Member for Sligo, he hoped that the hon. Member for Bath would not deem it inconsistent with his duty to withdraw his Motion.

Viscount Howick entirely concurred with the hon. Gentleman, that the Motion ought not to be withdrawn without some entry, at all events, of the ground, and without saying that the apology of the hon. Member for Sligo had been accepted as full satisfaction. But he would go further: he would say they ought first to affirm the Motion of the hon. Member for Bath, and having affirmed that, they should add that a full and ample apology having been tendered in his place by the hon. Member for Sligo, the House would not proceed further in the matter. This was the proper course; for if the Motion were withdrawn, it would appear as if they were not prepared to declare that a challenge sent by one Member of the House to another Member, for words spoken in that House, was a breach of privilege. As he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire, and with the right hon. Baronet the Member for Devonport, that they were deeply obliged to the hon. and learned Member for Bath for the course he had taken, he VOL LXXXI.

S Third
¿Series S

as the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) suggested, the personal Resolution be withdrawn, and a general Resolution be substituted, affirming that a breach of privilege has been committed by reason that one hon. Member sent a hostile message to another, in consequence of something that passed in a former debate. I quite agree with those who think that the hon. Member for Bath has well deserved the thanks of the House and country for the course he has pursued: my concurrence could not be expressed in too strong terms. I almost admit that this is not merely a technical breach of privilege; but that if permitted to pass unnoticed, it would, as my noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire said, strike a fatal blow at the very constitution of the House. It is, therefore, essential to enable the House properly to discharge its duties, that such proceedings should not be repeated. But, on the other hand, it is important that the House should attend to the observations which were made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport; and that every hon. Member should bear in mind, that if he is not to be personally responsible for that which he may feel it his duty to state in debate, he should take especial care that what he does say shall not be calculated to give unnecessary personal offence; and without taking upon myself the task of lecturing the right hon. and learned Member for Bath, I think he himself will feel that the observations which he made, not merely on Friday night, but which he has made on former occasions, upon Members representing Irish constituencies, can scarcely be justi

X