with the aid of private endowment. There would be ample opportunities of discussing the details in Committee, and there should be full time given before the third reading for the opinion of Ireland to be given upon them. He would not propose the third reading till after a reasonable time; but considering the period of the Session, and considering that he and his Colleagues attached great importance to the measure and to its becoming law in the present Session, he hoped he would not betray undue haste if he did not postpone the further progress of this Bill beyond Thursday. Mr. Wyse had not understood that religious instruction was to be excluded from these Colleges; but that every facility should be given to individuals to endow chairs of religion in the Colleges. Sir J. Graham said, it was the intention of the Government to adhere to the 15th Clause of the Bill, which gave facilities for lectures out of private endowments within the walls of the Colleges, subject to the control of the governing body and the approval of the Crown, but with no endowment from the State. Mr. O'Connell: If they had not religious instruction, the instruction would be worth nothing whatever. Mr. Roche observed, that this incidental discussion had better terminate; it was for the interest of all to come to an agreement on the question. Mr. A. J. B. Hope thought the statement of the right hon. Baronet might as well have been made to-night, and then the House would have come to the discussion on Thursday prepared. The Amendments proposed by Sir J. Graham were then read a second time. The Report of the Resolution (for a grant out of the Consolidated Fund) was received, and the Committee on the Bill was appointed for Thursday. Adjourned at half-past ten o'clock. Reported.-White's Charity Estate (Herbert's); Bedford Sir W. James observed, that whether Dr. Murray was a Repealer or not, he had always abstained from violent political agitation; and he would ever speak of such conduct in a clergyman of any communion with sincere, hearty, and unfeigned respect. But he could understand, and to a certain extent sympathize with the objections of the Roman Catholic prelates, because pursuits of a purely literary and PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Marquess of Normanby, scientific character might alienate the mind from those subjects which addressed the heart rather than the intellect. Bill, too, had been unwisely named; it was properly a Bill for providing literary and scientific institutions. It did not profess to give education, and it certainly was not collegiate; it supposed that religious instruction was given elsewhere. Still he should be glad to see the Bill assume more of a religious character. Unhappily, our lot was cast in days when every theologian must become a politician, and every politician a theologian. The from Liverpool, for Inquiry into the Sanatory Condition of the Tailoring Trade.-By the Marquess of Normanby, from John Liddle, Medical Officer of Whitechapel Union, relating to the Unhealthy Condition of many parts of that neighbourhood, and for the Appointment of a District Officer of Health.-By the Duke of Buccleuch, from Bradford, Coventry, and Edinburgh, for the Adoption of Sanatory Regulations in Populous Districts. -By Lord Redesdale, from Hinckley, and 2 other places, against the Increase of Grant to the College of Maynooth. -By Lord Stanley, from Provincial Parliament, for Protection and Extension of Privileges to Vessels employed in Navigating the Inland Waters of the Province of Canada. From Macroom, for Protection to Rights of Agricultural Labourers (Ireland).-From Landowners of Crossgar, for Protection to Rights of Tenants (Ireland). -From Protestant Clergy, and from the Inhabitants of several places, in Ireland, for Encouragement to Schools in connexion with Church Education Society. THE CHURCH EDUCATION SOCIETY Sir D. Norreys thought there was an end to all hope of mixed education if the opinion of the Roman Catholic bishops (IRELAND).] The Bishop of Cashel prewas to be received as decisive by the laity. I sented a petition, signed by 1,360 clergy This was one of the dangers he (the Bishop of Cashel) had anticipated from the system of national education. Mr. Mackesy proceeded to say— "I am favourable to the national system so far as this, that I consider it the next best thing where it is impossible to establish a scriptural school." These were precisely the sentiments he (the Bishop of Cashel) entertained. Mr. Mackesy further said "I have acted upon this principle in my own parish; but it appears to me that a school under the Church Education Society might be established with great benefit in the parish of Monksland." men of the Established Church, praying | dren, that the rules of the Board, particularly aid to the schools in connexion with the as to religious instruction, shall be strictly enChurch of Ireland. He was enabled to forced; and I find that the Protestant children say, from direct and positive information, dren are instructed in the catechism of their are present, when the Roman Catholic chilthat the opinion entertained by the clergy Church." of Ireland was adverse to the plan of the national schools, especially as some of them were now conducted; in many of them the use of the Scriptures was excluded to please the priests. The Roman Catholics, as was well known, held that the Scriptures alone could not be safely circulated among the people; whereas the Protestants held the very contrary doctrine, that they alone were sufficient, without note or comment, for religious instruction. The clergy of Ireland, therefore, upon principle, objected to any plan or system which did not enforce the use of the Scriptures; for they felt they could not be parties to refusing to children an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the Word of God. He regretted to be obliged to call their Lordships' attention to details so painful; but he held in his hands letters which showed that parents were threatened with excommunication for sending their children to schools where the Bible was taught. On the 8th of January last, a Roman Catholic clergy. man, named Stratt, wrote to a most respectable gentleman in the county of Waterford, named Smith, who had established a school for his tenants, stating that he was instructed by his bishop to excommunicate those Catholics who attended his schools where the Scriptures were taught. When those schools were first established, Extracts from the Scriptures were used, but now those were thrown side; and even that was a matter which he thought means ought to be taken to remedy. The Rev. Mr. Woodward, in a pamphlet he had published on the subject of the National Schools, contended that the mixed education given under the National Board was most injurious to Protestants. The Rev. Mr. Mackesy, whom he had been accused of censuring for his opposition to the Church Education Society, wrote, on the 30th of May, 1843, to the Rector of Monksland, a parish containing a large Protestant population, and where he was then doing temporary duty, in these terms: Mr. Mackesy had further written to him, that the establishment of scriptural schools was not only desirable, but necessary. There were a great number of English children there belonging to miners brought from Cornwall, thirty of whom asked for the establishment of a scriptural school. He wrote to Mr. Osborne, on whose estate they had settled, asking for ground for a school, and offering any purchase money he chose to ask; but that gentleman refused, thereby showing, that those who talked of civil and religious liberty, were not remarkable for their liberality to those who were working the mines on their estates, and thereby increasing their income. He (the Bishop of Cashel) considered that scriptural schools ought to be established for the Protestants of Ireland. Mr. O'Connell had lately expressed himself in the strongest terms against anything in the shape of united education; and in an extraordinary paper put forward by the Roman Catholic bishops, they had demanded that the professors of several branches of education in the proposed academical institutions should be Roman Catholics, urging, that if their request were not complied with, Roman Catholics educated in those institutions would be exposed to great danger. He (the Bishop of Cashel) would venture to say, that the nearest approach to united chil-education was, that given by the Church Education Society. "There are a great many Protestant dren attending the national schools; and, as far as I can learn, no sufficient care has been taken by any person on the part of these chil That society possessed 1,800 schools, containing 100,000 scholars, of whom 33,000 were Roman Catholics. He believed, that so imper- [ that in 1821, the number of young peofect was the working of the mixed system ple receiving education in Ireland was of education in Ireland, that in schools 394,000; in 1824 it had increased to attended by a large number of Roman 509,000; in 1831 it was 684,000; and in Catholics, there was a very small attend- 1841 it had fallen to 502,000. These ance of Protestants. He would give an- facts showed that the effect of the Na other case. To show the objections en- tional Board, which was maintained at an tertained to this system, he might men- expense of 70,000l. a year, was to increase tion, that in those places where the ma- the amount of ignorance in Ireland. The jority of the children were Protestants, National Education Society in Ireland few Roman Catholics attended; and in had, in fact, put an end to all other eduthose places where the majority were Ro- cational institutions-such as the Kildare man Catholics, few Protestant children Place Society, the London Hibernian Soattended. In the town of Cloghjordan, ciety, and the Schools for discountenancthe Rev. Mr. French, a most pious and ing Vice. The national system was now, exemplary clergyman, established a school therefore, the only educational system of which the majority of the pupils were existing in Ireland, except the Church Protestants. Only three Roman Catholic Education Society, which afforded educachildren attended at this school. At the tion to 100,000 children. Although the circumstance of the attendance of those National Society had done a great deal, Roman Catholic pupils, the Roman Ca- it had done more in destroying other sotholic priest of the parish took offence, cieties, than in building up itself. He and denounced the schoolmaster from the considered that the facts he had menaltar. The consequence was, that before tioned, showed most satisfactorily, on authe following Sunday the schoolmaster thorized statements, that since the estawas murdered in the streets of Cloghjor- blishment of the national system of edudan. There were, for instance, in the cation in Ireland, ignorance had been on diocese of Meath, schools under the Na- the increase, and education on the detional Board containing 500 children, crease. It might be considered that one without a single Protestant scholar; so reason for supporting the national system that the National Society was actually was, lest, by adopting any other plan, carrying out a species of separate educa- they might offend the Roman Catholics tion. But there was another ground on by supporting Protestant education. He which he thought that the prayer of the had reason to know, however, that the petitioners ought to be considered. It Roman Catholics of Ireland would not be appeared from the Report of the Census annoyed by the establishment of scriptural Commissioners in 1841, that from 1831 schools. To show the non-existence of to 1841-during the period the National this feeling, he would mention what had Board had been in existence-ignorance lately occurred in the town of Cashel. In had been increasing in Ireland, while, on a suit which had been lately gained by the other hand, education had been di- the Corporation of Cashel, in which a minishing. In page 36 of that Report, considerable amount of property was he found a statement of the comparative gained by the town Commissioners (so we number of persons in Ireland possessing understood), a sum of 2007. a year was the advantages of education from 1741 appropriated by the Chancellor of Ireland to 1841. It appeared, that in 1741 the for the education of the poor of the town. proportion of the population of Ireland At a public meeting, at Cashel, a Roman who could neither read nor write, was 63 Catholic shoemaker proposed a resolution per cent. He would not trouble their to this effect:Lordships by going through the whole period between that time and the present; but he might state that in 1830 the proportion of the population who could not read or write diminished to 35 per cent.; but in 1835 it had risen to 42 per cent.; and in 1841 it was as high as 76 per cent. He found another return at page 39 of the Report of the Census Commissioners, from which it appeared, "We approve of a grant of 2001. a year for the purposes of education, provided it be confined to the poorer classes; and, as the Protestants have applied for a grant for education, we approve of a grant of 301. from that for the support of the school under his care." sum being given to the Protestant minister, That grant of 30l. a year was now received by the Protestant school in Cashel. The true mode of carrying out the 14th Report, and the Appendix to that Report, | represented as contrary to the principles of the Established Church to permit the reading of the Scriptures without note or comment. That sermon had been dedicated to, and printed with the appro was to keep up the national schools, along with the parochial schools, under the superintendence of the parochial clergy. He hoped that Her Majesty's Government would give their serious considera-bation of, the Church Education Society, tion to this subject, which he had been desirous of bringing forward on the part of 1,700 of the Protestant clergy of Ireland. and might, therefore, be taken as declaratory of their principles. But that Society also permitted children not belonging to their communion to withdraw when reliThe Earl of St. Germans, although no gious education was being communicated. longer officially connected with Ireland, This was treating the Liturgy and Cateyet felt that the occasion was one on which chism with the same disrespect which the he might be excused for making a few Society charged upon the National Board observations on the right rev. Prelate's in reference to the sacred Scriptures. The speech, and on the petition which he had right rev. Prelate had dwelt a good deal presented. He thought that the right on the number of Roman Catholic children rev. Prelate had entirely failed to explain who received instruction at the schools of the the nature of the alterations in the na- Church Education Society; but the House tional system of education which he called should recollect, that when Roman Cathoupon their Lordships to adopt. He be- lic parents sent their children to schools lieved, however, that the right rev. Prelate where the Scriptures were read without note wished to give to the Church Education or comment, they were violating the laws Society a grant of money proportionate to which enjoined obedience to their priests; the number of scholars which it was in and he did not think any system of instrumental in instructing. Now, what struction much calculated to benefit chilwould be the effect of such a step? In dren, when they were taught at the same England, the grant voted for education time to regard that system as involving a viowas divided among several societies, there lation of their duty. Let him remind them, being no Government bound to superin- too, that the Presbyterians of the north of tend its application. But in Ireland the Ireland-who were certainly as much incase was different; and Parliament, inclined to respect the Bible as any sect of voting money to the Church Education religionists could be, and who were, thereSociety, would be erecting, by the side of fore, quite as likely to object on such a their own admitted officers, an irrespon- ground, if it were valid, as the Established sible board, over which Parliament would Church-admitted that religious freedom, have no control. The right rev. Prelate as to scripture reading, was well provided had commented on the constitution of the for by the rules of the national schools. present Board of National Education; but Let them not forget, either, that there he would ask him to remember that, as were 940 of these schools in which the the money which it was called upon to Scriptures were read, and 1340 in which distribute was derived from persons hold the Extracts were made use of. The Rev. ing different religious opinions, it was but Mr. Woodward, a distinguished clergyman fair that the Board should be so consti- of the Established Church, had been retuted as to represent these different reli-ferred to by the right rev. Prelate. Mr. gious opinions. With respect to what had Woodward had lately written a pamphlet, been said as to reading of the Bible in the in which pamphlet he saidnational schools, he must say that the right "If education is to be provided for the rev. Prelate had misrepresented the prac-whole people, and that education is not to be tice. Religious instruction was so ar- a separate education, I cannot conceive a ranged in these schools as to be given only more unexceptionable and liberal system than when the children of parents who objected that provided by the Board. There the to their being present, would have an op- Bible, is given to those who are willing to Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the portunity of withdrawing. The Church Education Society, however, were not very to all alike." accept it, and secular instruction is afforded consistent in the objections they brought against the National Board; for, in a sermon preached by the late Bishop of Down and Connor-a distinguished advocate of the Church Education Society-it was He afterwards said "Were the clergy examined one by one, it would be found that the great body of them have thought little on the subject for them selves, but have followed the lead of a few who are used to dictate on such matters. Many are in heart inclined to give in their adhesion to the system, but are afraid to appear to desert their friends." of St. Germans) was inclined to think that the right rev. Prelate would hardly admit that to be the case. It was hardly worth while to advert to the extraordinary statement made by the right rev. Prelate, as to the Return furnished by the Census Commissioners. He could not conceive the idea of any man believing, with the right rev. Prelate, that ignorance was more extended and dense in Ireland now than it had been ten years ago. He (Lord St. Germans) thought that, when, according to the Return of the Census Commission, there were upwards of 3,000 schools, and nearly 400,000 children; and when the right rev. Prelate himself had declared that 100,000 children were educated in the schools of the Church Education Society, it was a most extraordinary proposition on the part of the right rev. Prelate, that ignorance had been increasing within the last ten years. He (the Earl of St. Germans) had watched anxiously and narrowly the effect of the system pursued by the National Board; and, being convinced of the benefits it had conferred upon the Irish people, he implored their Lordships to pause before they assented to such a proposition as that suggested by the right rev. Prelate, the adoption of which would necessarily lead to the dissolution of that Board; as neither the clergy of the Protestant Church, nor the clergy of the Church of Rome in Ireland, would consent to remain members of the Board, if the Government placed itself in immediate connexion with another Board established in direct hostility to it. They might depend upon it that it would not be satisfactory to the Romon Catholics, if a grant for educational purposes were made in favour of the Established Church, without putting the Roman Catholic Church upon the same footing; and upon these grounds he should give his most strenuous opposition to the proposition of the right rev. Prelate. The Dean of Ferns (the Rev. Dr. Newland), who had been formerly opposed to the Board, now approved of it; and the Rev. Daniel Bagot, vicar-general of the diocese of Newry, one of the most distinguished scholars of Trinity College, had, after visiting several of the schools in which a mixed education was given, borne testimony to the practical utility of the system. At one of them, where the numbers of Protestant and Catholic children were nearly equal, he was surprised at the clear and satisfactory answers of the Roman Catholic children. At another, he examined a large class of Roman Catholic children; and they gave most satisfactory answers, so as to show that they had a general acquaintance with all the essential points of our religion-both Protestants and Catholics acquiring a good religious education together. At a third school, where there were fifty scholars of all denominations, some of the Roman Catholic children were amongst the best answerers upon religious points. If the national system had failed as one of united education-if it had partially failed-although he would not even admit that that was the case the result must be attributed to the opposition of the clergy of the Established Church and a large body of the landowners, who ought rather, and certainly might have aided in contributing to its success. The fault, if fault there were, was not in the system, but in those who tried to retard, instead of aiding, to develop it. With reference to what had been stated by the right rev. Prelate as to the duty of Mr. Mackesy to keep a school in his parish, he (the Earl of St. Germans) wished their Lordships to know, that the obligation referred to was imposed by a The Marquess of Normanby felt that it Statute of Henry VIII.; the ninth section was quite unnecessary for him, after what of which provided, that promotion was had been said by the noble Earl, to add his only to be given to such persons as could testimony to the good working of the naspeak English; and that the archbishop tional system of education in Ireland. In should administer an oath to the person reference to the case of the Rev. Mr. promoted, that he would endeavour to Mackesy, he thought the right rev. Preteach the English tongue, and likewise, late had exhibited some want of candour that he should repeat the beads in the in charging him with inconsistency, on English tongue. Now, if this repeating the authority of a letter written two years of the beads in the English tongue were a ago, while that gentleman had temporapart of the administration of the Estab-rily the charge of the parish of Monkslished Church, then, of course, it might land, without having given him any opapply to Mr. Mackesy; but he (the Earl portunity for explanation; more especially |