more than double that of two, one supplying light and the other power. On page 7 Mr. Hedges gives an estimate for six 100 horse-power compound condensing engines at 16007. I wish they could be purchased for that-167. per horse-power; I do not think that any first-class makers would supply engines at that price. If they would, then I am mistaken; my own impression is that the cost would be almost double; I may be wrong, but that is my impression from contracts recently let. I think in all these estimates for electric lighting there is not sufficient margin as to cost. Mr. Hedges puts down nine tubular elephant boilers at 4007. each; considering the size of these boilers, I do not think that is sufficient, and I believe they would cost more. There is nothing allowed in Mr. Hedges' estimate for boiler setting, and foundations for engines. The idea that gas companies should allow gas mains to be used for the return of the electric current was rather like adding insult to injury. Gas and water pipes might be used for the purpose, but I hardly think it should be calculated upon. With respect to ventilating buildings and sweeping streets by electricity, that is going very far ahead of where we are. We can secure ventilation now without going to that extent; and as to street sweeping, that may also, at present at all events, be relegated to the regions of absurdity. I do not think either is practical at present. There is nothing in the paper as to the price of electricity and gas, and there Mr. Hedges has steered clear of a question about which there are many difficulties. I have never heard it put down satisfactorily-taking gas at a certain price, and putting down fairly all the cost of electricity. There has always been a hiatus somewhere; and I shall be glad if, in his reply, Mr. Hedges can give us some definite information on this subject.

Mr. JERRAM: I should like to say a few words; I have been instructed to report on electric lighting in our district, because we found the gas company supplied us with inferior gas at a large price, and paid a good dividend to the shareholders. It has been owing to gas companies not doing their duty to the community which has led local authorities to take up the matter of electric lighting, and I think it is very proper that local authorities should take up the question. Our experience of gas and water companies told us to beware of allowing electric lighting to become a private monopoly. Mr. Burstal says that men in the employ of a gas company or a local company break up a street and repair it

again, leaving it in much the same way as they found it; but we all know that a gas or water company leaves a street in a much worse state, and that it is often necessary to write to them a great many times before they will do what they ought to have done in the first instance. Take the Strand district, for example; there, the gas and water companies have had the street up in the busiest season of the year, and did the work only in the day time, altogether regardless of the public convenience. It is because the public have not been properly treated by public companies that local authorities are taking this matter up. I saw last week that the Edison light on the Holborn Viaduct has been so successful that they have agreed to continue it again for the same price as gas, with the result that they get about 1 times more illumination from electricity than from gas. This has only been published within the last few days, and may be interesting as showing the latest result between electric lighting and gas at the present time. There is no doubt this matter is in its infancy, and it would not be wise for any local authority to give their rights into the hands of any private company, but to take it into their own hands. But hard heads are thinking of this question, and shortly I hope local authorities will be able practically to consider the question of public electric lighting, and so check the disgraceful way in which gas companies have been treating the people of this country.

Mr. JONES: Some of us know so little of this matter that we are rather disposed to hear all that is to be said, and then carry our thoughts home and meditate upon them. There is no doubt it is one of those important things forced upon us at the present day by circumstances; and, as has just been remarked, electric lighting is in its infancy, and it looks like a thriving infant. There is much credit due to it for having stirred up gas companies, for certainly gas lighting during the last two years has been infinitely superior to what it was before. No finer sight can be seen than in Parliament Street; any night, after twelve o'clock, you will see about as fine a specimen of lighting as could possibly be imagined or desired. I suppose it is not the only illustration, and I do not refer to it as being Sugg's or Bray's, but as showing how splendidly an important thoroughfare like Parliament Street can be lighted. As to the relative cost of gas and electricity, I do not know anything about that; but I do know this, that there is very great difficulty in getting at anything like the approximate price of electricity. That problem has not been worked out, and it is

one of the difficulties we have to deal with in advising our Boards on this subject. It is a question which it is very difficult for any non-expert to know much about. The action of the Board of Trade, to my mind, has been rather peculiar; they seem to have given rather an advantage to companies; and my own impression is that the object of one or two of the large companies which seem to be pressing the matter is to get concessions of districts, and trying to make what they can out of them. I think the gas companies and the electrical companies are considering not the ratepayers' pockets but their own. Of course, it is all very well to make a virtue of this, and profess to benefit the public at large, but the public at large, so far as these particular parties are concerned, is their shareholders. However, there is no doubt a great future for electricity, and I hope to see the day when it and gas lighting are worked hand in hand. As far as gas lighting is concerned, I believe it, too, is almost in its infancy, quite as much as electricity. There is still a wide field for gas never thought of before, which is being forced upon the gas companies by the advances made by electricity.

Mr. LEMON: I think Mr. Hedges was very severe on the Board of Trade on this question. Although the Board of Trade has been advised by experts, it was not possible they could foresee all the difficulties which must naturally arise; but there is one thing which we are certainly indebted to the Board for, as representatives of local authorities, and that is, that this is the first time we have had this principle established, that no company can take possession of a town without the local authority having the option of doing the work themselves. When gas and water companies got their Acts of Parliament, the option of doing the work themselves was never given to local authorities. Local authorities, however, are given the option of providing electric lighting, but I must say very few local authorities have availed themselves of it. This is due, as our past President has said, to want of knowledge respecting electric lighting. There is hesitation in adopting it until more is known about it, and until it can at least be ascertained crudely what the cost will be. We can always tell what gas will cost, but I have not been able to ascertain myself what electric lighting will cost. I find, the same as Mr. Burstal, that the estimate put down for electricity is fallacious altogether. I only wish that I could get engines and boilers at the prices Mr. Hedges has put down in his estimate. I always find, if you take ordinary engines and boilers, you will not get much change out of 1007.

per horse-power. Mr. Hedges puts down 167. per horse-power, and there are similar sums for boilers and fittings. These things naturally deter local authorities and their advisers from placing very much reliance on the estimates placed before them by the advocates of electric lighting. Until we get something like a correct basis on which we can form an estimate of the probable cost, we, as engineers of local authorities, shall be some time before we advise them to rush into electric lighting, when we can get very good light from gas-I say very good light, because I know cases where gas is even in advance of electric lighting. I think, therefore, we should hesitate in adopting electric lighting until it is more matured.

Mr. PRITCHARD: I desire to say one word on this subject, because I am interested in electric lighting; and in some eight or nine towns where application is being made for Provisional Orders, I have failed to find all that kindness on the part of local authorities which has been spoken of. Whatever the intention of the Board of Trade may be, local authorities have certainly taken every opportunity of protecting themselves, and quite right too. They have the opportunity of availing themselves of the right to construct works, and of the right to purchase works; but, not content with this, they have in many instances endeavoured to make such hard terms as to give encouragement to electric lighting for a few years, and then to purchase the property at a break-up value. That certainly is rather hard. I may say that the subject treated by Mr. Hedges has been not only interesting but highly instructive. I wish just to ask one question of Mr. Hedges, as to the return current. He says, "in some cases the return current may be made by a wire in connection with the earth, but the use of earth returns, though not proscribed by the clauses of the Order, requires the special sanction of the Board of Trade." I wish to ask, what would be the effect on our telegraphic communications if earth currents were permitted?

Mr. HEDGES: I agree with Mr. Blakesley's remarks, with the exception of his objections to the use of alternating currents, but I cannot go with him so far as to condemn alternating currents, as they can be employed for many of the uses electricity will be put to. First make electric lighting popular, and get it used; if there are certain companies which wish to use alternating currents, and get satisfactory results, I would not deny them the power. There is no doubt that alternating currents are more dangerous

but I think the low alternations allowed by the Board of Trade should be altered, as they might in some cases cause considerable danger. The system of laying the electric mains which I have described has been thoroughly tested by the Swan Company, and I do not see how it can get out of order. It is very necessary to have little resistance in the mains, and I think Mr. Blakesley did well in pointing out the difference between the standard pressure and the pressure consumers have to pay for; but I think it is only right that the companies should have some margin to work on. They are going in for large plant, and for systems which have only been tried in some small way, and they naturally want some protection. I have no doubt the Board of Trade will alter the margin of difference in pressure, as they are able to change any point of detail from time to time, and I should think consumers would soon object to paying for what they have not got. But you must remember that gas companies now make you pay for what you do not consume, because meters at present are anything but reliable. There is a certain amount of windage taking place, which goes into your gas bill, although the gas is not actually burned in your lamps. Mr. Burstal objected to my remarks on the gas and water companies. I raised his anger unintentionally, as I was only speaking of the further extension of similar powers, as in some towns you have gas and water companies, and if there was a third company the difficulty would be increased. Gas and water companies hardly work in harmony now; one comes and takes up the water mains, and then the other follows and takes up the gas mains, and if there was an electric company too, I think it would be rather like chaos. That is the reason I think it would be better to have the mains in the hands of some local authority, who would fix the time at any rate when they were to be taken up, and not allow the whole of the control to be at the will of the contracting company. There was a question raised about towns having the requisite water power to work dynamo machines. I am not prepared to say how many towns have absolutely sufficient water power, but I went down to Northwich, and with the engineer examined the river Weaver, and the power there we found to be quite sufficient. In fact, taking the average level of the water, we found we might get sufficient power direct, but it would be better to have some reserve batteries. At the Falls of the Clyde I understand there is a great deal of power running to waste. There are many other places, too, where power might be obtained, though perhaps not