the country in the contracting business-a difference, if I recall rightly, of about 100 degrees. Now what we should seek, and, as I believe, that is our ultimate end, is to standardize the conditions. Let us all descend or ascend to a common plane. I do not advocate any hurry in this direction, and I think that the facts, or, better expressed, the standard we adopt should be expressed in such form as to prevent the ordinary from interpreting.

To my mind nothing is so dangerous to the well-being of our society as the promulgation of our ideas broadcast. Let us guard our interests selfishly, and let those who choose to stay on the outside seek elsewhere for their knowledge. Let us seek to elevate our membership by increasing the requirement, or, better expressed, by the higher education of our coming heating and ventilating engineers. As one of our previous speakers has said in his remarks, the tendency of the time is to complication. I must say that I rejoice in the fact, as complications elevate our plane and bring us above the simple application of the rule of three.

The simple matter of house heating, as ordinarily done, does not, in my opinion, give us the license to call our profession a science. Where our engineering should come in is in the reversion of the natural laws, of which a friend recently spoke; we do not want to trust to nature for our results; we want to obtain effects by the application of our engineering knowledge, because in the application for results from nature we must be subservient to nature where we ought to command.

Now, to conclude my remarks, I would suggest that it might be a good idea if our council would, in sending out notice for our next annual meeting, devise some plan for the presentation of something new or original in the papers presented, boiled down to its smallest compass. The whole matter is simply this: Our present convention has been more on the personal experience of its members than for an interchange of ideas or the spreading of new theories. Do not let us fall into the rut that we have reached the highest pinnacle of our profession and that each of us in his own opinion is perfect and that there is no room for improvement. Let us seek to develop the genius that somewhere lies dormant and elevate ourselves and our profession, so that we become as necessary to mankind and its comforts as the physician is to the sick person.

DISCUSSION.

Mr. Hoffman:-I think one little remark that our friend made might be enlarged upon, and that is the promiscuous publication of the discussions on papers that are read in the meetings. That

might be a very good thing for the general public, but looking at it from the selfish standpoint of the interests of this society, is it not rather a detriment than an aid to us? The reason I speak that way is because I was soliciting a young friend of my acquaintance to join the society. I told him I thought it would be a benefit to him. He is a very young man and has very good ideas, and I thought that his joining the society would be of mutual interest.

He said, "What use is it to me to join the society? I can read all the goings on. I can take the papers up to my room and I can read everything that is said and done there and I haven't wasted any time and I get all the benefit that you get from going to the meetings." It seems to me that the remark of our friend is applicable to cases of this kind. If we did not publish promiscuously the papers and the discussions, such men as my friend, who would be an addition to the society, would naturally have to come into it in order to gain the knowledge.

Mr. Cary: I am afraid that I cannot agree with the gentleman who has just spoken. The object of the society is to investigate matters relating to heating and ventilation. It is not a society for our own good, a mutual admiration society, or anything of that kind. We are not only trying to elevate ourselves, but we are trying to elevate the public in general. The more that we can bring our ideas forward and publish them broadcast the nearer we will attain the results that we have started in for. I believe that all that is done and said here should be published as broadly as possible and let these people read them outside if they do not care to come into the society. There are plenty of others that do and who can see the benefits of belonging to the society. I believe that the house of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers is open. There is a large library that is open to the public. People can come in here and educate themselves and learn from what we have done and from what we have got here. The object of that society is to raise the plane of mechanical engineering in this country. I say that, being a member of the Mechanical Engineers, and I think that the Heating and Ventilating Engineers should place themselves on the same plane, and I believe that the other engineering societies also look at the matter in the same light. I do not think we can do any better than follow their example.

Mr. Jellett: I must say that I agree with Mr. Cary thoroughly. I believe, as I said in the address at the opening of this convention, that the widest publicity of the doings of this society is to the interests of the society itself. I believe that as the general public get to know of the improved methods of heating and ventilation

there will come a want and there will come a demand for the heating and ventilating engineer which does not now exist. We know that a large proportion of the work done in this country today is done without any careful consideration whatever, simply because the public is ignorant of the fact that there is necessity for such careful planning and consideration. When they come to know that it is a desirable thing; that there is something more than paying for the apparatus; that its design, arrangement, and maintenance are all to be carefully considered just so soon there will be an increased demand for the engineer. I believe there is only one way to get this desirable result-not to keep it to ourselves and to keep the public in absolute ignorance of what we know, but to give them the benefit of our experience and tell them what they should know and what it is to their interest to know.

Mr. Gormly:-I should be very sorry to see our society go back to the practices of past ages when men endeavored to hide any little matter of knowledge that they had for fear that their neighbor would also get some benefit from it. I think it would be a mistake for our society to do anything of the kind, and I also think that the publication of the matters that are transacted in our society is a benefit to us and not an injury. I would be very sorry to see this idea prevail, that we should keep our knowledge to ourselves.

The President:-I think that the history of the past has proved that the societies have not hid their light under a bushel.

XXII.

TOPICAL DISCUSSIONS.

SECOND ANNUAL MEETING.

TOPIC NO. I.

Judging from the present standards, what is the ideal system of heating for moderate sized dwellings, taking into consideration satisfactory results in warming, economy in operation, ease of management, reliability under all conditions, and original cost of installation?

Mr. J. J. Blackmore:-To start this discussion it seems to me we should try to get at what are present standards. I confess I have always found that a difficulty. I would like to hear a little discussion from the members as to what they consider the present standards are.

Mr. Quay: I think the gentleman has given us a question pretty hard to answer. I am afraid we have not any present standards that could be laid down as standards. There may be a certain standard for hot water heating and a certain standard for furnace heating, but the question is proper as a starting point, to know what our platform is. If any one can answer I should like to

hear.

Mr. Cary: I think that we have rather anticipated this in discussing Mr. Kramer's paper. As this is put down I think it is merely intended to open the way for a discussion as to the efficiency of the different systems for dwellings of the size mentioned. We have already started on that line, and I do not see why a continution of what has gone before would not touch on this first topical question.

Mr. Gormly:-I take it that the present standards as they are mentioned here mean the average practice or the ordinary practice of heating buildings with hot air or by steam or by water. Possibly there is quite a variation in the practice of different firms and different individuals in this matter. As a part of this topic relates to the question of economy in such apparatus I would like to state

what my experience has been with two buildings that were erected at the same time. These two buildings are dwelling houses, of stone, built just alike, and built at the same time and standing not 25 feet apart. Each of them is exposed, standing in an open lawn. One party put water in his house and the other party put hot air in the other house. There was something of a contention between the two owners at the time as to who should have the warmest house and the best ventilated house when the plants were put in operation. They have now been in operation three years, this being the third winter. It was found that the house using hot water, although it had, in part, an indirect system of heating and in part a direct system was heated with eight tons of coal, whereas the other house burned twenty-seven tons of coal; the only difference in them, so far as could be noticed, was that one was heated by a hot air furnace and the other was heated by water. I think this has a direct bearing on this topic, as a branch of it seems to be "economy in operation." I cite this as one instance where I had an opportunity to test the difference between two systems, one of hot air and the other of water, in houses built just alike, occupied as private dwellings and exposed necessarily alike; and there has been a difference ever since the start, one party using eight tons of coal to heat the house and heat it well, and the other party heating the other house equally well, but using twenty-seven tons.

Mr. Cary: The gentleman has been very cautious in not stating which uses the twenty-seven tons and which uses the eight tons. Mr. Gormly:-The water heating apparatus is using the eight tons and the hot air furnace is using the twenty-seven tons.

Mr. Hugh J. Barron:-I think Mr. Gormly has the right conception of what this topic is. I think if gentlemen would state what they consider an ideal system for a moderate sized dwelling, say costing not over $10,000 and not over four stories in height, and 25 by 60 or 40 by 40 feet, which is the ordinary average American house, it would start an interesting discussion. My own conception is that the hot water system is the ideal system for such a house, half indirect and half direct; that system will give more satisfaction and will be more economical than any other system in the world which has yet been designed.

Mr. Payne:—I certainly agree with the previous speaker that the ideal system is half direct and half indirect hot water. I think a house needs direct radiation for the comfort of occupants. I have just moved from a house heated by direct steam into a house heated with hot water. The average temperature of both was all right. But I noticed especially that my children feel the difference.