arrangements might be made for stopping the mouths of the opponents of a proposition for altering the relations of the State with the Catholic Church in Ireland, and for giving an advantage to those who might hereafter introduce such a measure. Under these circumstances, he could not make up his mind to vote for the second reading of the Bill at this late period of the Session, when it was impossible that it could reecive the consideration which the important collateral subjects connected with it demanded. the people of England, and totally unnecessary, as he believed, for Roman Catholic purposes, but also because it ill assorted with the grounds on which the Parliament was invited by the present Bill to establish definite relations with the See of Rome. Having thus briefly adverted to the reasons which he thought ought to induce the Government to postpone the measure until next Session, he would now state the course which he must take upon the present occasion. It would not be consistent with his duty to evade the difficulty in MR. GLADSTONE said, he felt it im- which he felt himself placed by declining possible to give a silent vote upon this to give a vote for the second reading. question; but he would endeavour to com- He was determined not to blink the prinpress what he had to say within a brief ciple involved in the Bill. What were the space. There were, he must confess, se- grounds of the policy which this country veral circumstances connected with the had hitherto observed towards the See of question, particularly as regarded the time Rome? For 100 years after the Reforat which the Bill had been proposed, which mation, the Pope was actually in arms for made it difficult for him to give the vote the purpose of recovering by force his lost which he felt compelled to give in asser- dominion in this country. That was an tion of the principle of the measure. It historical fact. It was not referred to by was an unfortunate incident, as had been him for the purpose of blame; the proceedobserved by his hon. and learned Friend ing was conformable to the practice of the the Member for Plymouth, that the House time. It was only natural that we should should be called upon, at so late a period of have prohibited relations with the See of the Session, when the minds of Members Rome when it attacked the title of the were exhausted by the labours which they Sovereign of these realms; but there was had gone through, to give judgment upon a no reason for continuing the prohibition at question like this, touching upon some of the the present moment, when all danger from highest and most delicate matters which such a cause was universally admitted to could come under the consideration of Par- have ceased. He now came to the second liament. It was also unfortunate, as his ground. He felt, with his hon. Friend hon. Friend and Colleague had urged, that the Member for the University of Dublin, the House should be invited to debate the that there was something most unsatisfacquestion at a moment when-looking to tory and unbecoming to the character of the state of affairs in Italy-it was not Englishmen in the present state of our reimprobable that in a few months the whole lations with the See of Rome. It might of the subject-matter in dispute would have he alleged that, under the existing syspassed away. It was further unfortunate, tem, we did substantially maintain diploas his hon. Friend and Colleague had point- matic relations with Rome. He did not ed out, that the House should be called here allude to mere consular appointments, upon to consider the question at a time for they would not raise the question of when the Pope proposed to divide the Eng- diplomatic relations. But we had had lish territory intoarch bishoprics and bish- agents acting in Rome on matters of great {oprics. He concurred with those who and paramount importance; and no one thought that we must stand upon one of had ever said a stop ought to be put to two grounds. If we declined political that system. A necessity, that was felt communication with the See of Rome, we to be stronger than the letter of the law, had no right to complain of any steps which had brought about this state of things; a the Pope might take with respect to the feeling of necessity stronger than national administration of his own ecclesiastical or party prepossessions had driven us into affairs; but an act so directly in contraven- a practice not altogether compatible with tion of the laws of the land as the parti- the frankness and ingenuousness of the tioning of the country into archbishoprics English character. He thought, however, and bishoprics was a most unfortunate that this state of matters should not exist proceeding, not only because it was gene--that the pretence ought to be made rally and justly offensive to the feelings of conformable to the reality, and the pro fession to what was the practice. He thought the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin had placed this part of the question on its true ground. It was not merely the relations which this country bore to Italian affairs that were to be considered in dealing with this measure. They would not be dealing honestly nor fairly with the case if they shut their eyes to the fact; and they would be chargeable with legislating on this question on false and erroneous pretences. It had been admitted in the House of Lords in the most distinct and emphatic language, that the demands upon Parliament to pass this Bill had reference mainly to the occasional necessity that existed for the intervention of the See of Rome in affairs of an internal and domestic character. Now, he did not think it necessarily followed that this Bill made any alteration in the position of Parliament with reference to the Church of Rome in Ireland. He was satisfied, that if a time should come when some general arrangement with the Church of Rome in Ireland should be considered desirable, there would not be the slightest pretence for saying that Parliament was betrayed into a measure of that nature, or adopted it unprepared and unawares. There would be ample evidence before that time arrived, that the establishment of these diplomatic relations had done nothing whatever to fetter the perfect liberty with which they should approach the discussion of such a subject. It was admitted that we had occasionally been subjected to the necessity of holding communication with the Roman Catholic authorities. Indeed, it could not be denied; and surely to that admission, followed another admission of the inevitable necessity for a measure of this description. He would take the instance of the Bill for erecting academical institutions in Ireland. Was it not obvious as a measure of good sense, that the passing of that Bill necessitated communications with the See of Rome? Would it have been right to institute these colleges without ascertaining what were to be the arrangements of the Church of Rome regarding them? Reference had been made to a letter addressed on this subject by Lord Clarendon to Archbishop Murray; but he could see nothing that was not perfectly fair and reasonable in that letter. He could see in it nothing offensive to any other church or denomination; because he held there was fair ground for the pre sumption, that if the measure had not the concurrence of the Protestant people of Ireland, they would have made their views known through their representatives. The Lord Lieutenant had held communication with the See of Rome through Archbishop Murray; and he would only say that, in his view, it would be acting wrong to establish educational institutions in Ireland and not communicate with the Roman Catholic authorities as to the manner in which those institutions were to be framed. If they granted this, then he asked if it was right that the Lord Lieutenant should be driven to an indirect and clandestine communication with the See of Rome? If they merely went to a bishop or an archbishop, who were inferior to the Pope of Rome in authority, no satisfactory arrangements could be made; they would be making covenants with persons who were irresponsible to them; and, therefore, if they wished it to be known that they made valid arrangements with the Church of Rome, they had no choice but to go to the head-quarters where such arrangements alone could be made. They might as well treat with sergeants and corporals instead of the general of an army, as with persons of secondary rank in the Church of Rome; and, therefore, as a matter of business and common sense, it had become an inevitable necessity that on those particular and limited occasions, when the House thought it necessary to legislate on Roman Catholic affairs, there should be communication with the Roman Catholic authorities. That involved communication with the Pope; and if so, it was perfectly right and proper that it should be direct and avowed, instead of being clandestine. But it was said that this would go to substitute the influence of the Pope for the authority of the Crown. He saw the force of this remark, and he was ready to admit that they ought ever to look to the authority of the Crown and the law, instead of foreign intervention, in the government of the country. But he could not look to the state of Ireland, and recollect that there were men in that House charged with the maintenance of peace and order in Ireland, and refuse to give them any aid not illegitimate which they might wish to make available for this great purpose. He would not, from any fear of being misapprehended, and of being thought to entertain views regarding future schemes-which he would leave to be dealt with when their time of ripeness the measure, he should give his vote against the second reading. The House divided on the question that the word "now stand part of the question:-Ayes 125; Noes 46: Majority 79. List of the AYES. Abdy, T. N. Acland, Sir T. D. came he would not, from any such considerations, withhold his support from this measure. If it was true that, on certain occasions, when a spirit of disaffection, or something like disaffection, was manifested in Ireland, the influence of the spiritual head of the Roman Catholic Church had been beneficially used for the maintenance of peace and order, he would not shrink from saying that he regarded favourably the use of that influence, though he regretted the necessity which had arisen for its exercise; and he would conclude by stating that, on the present occasion, nothing would be done on his part to prevent that influence being openly and directly accepted whenever necessity de manded it. MR. NEWDEGATE said, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had distinctly and avowedly, and he would say manfully, acknowledged that he considered Her Majesty incapable of governing Ireland. Such was the conclusion to be drawn from what he had stated to the House. He had always looked on this measure with extreme dislike, and that feeling had been heightened by what had occurred during the debate. It was an attempt to obtain for Her Majesty the cooperation of a Power that never would cooperate, but which would endeavour to supersede the authority of the GovernHe would give the Bill the most ment. determined opposition. In MR. GOULBURN said, that if he voted against the second reading, it arose from the period at which the noble Lord opposite had brought the question forward. the other House it had been urged on as a pressing matter; but in that House the noble Lord himself had postponed it nineteen several times during this Session. He thought that the House was justified, at this very late period of the Session, in declining to enter into the consideration of a measure of this sort, deeply affecting the feelings of a large portion of the community, who were necessarily embarrassed to ascertain the grounds upon which it was specifically brought forward. After what they had heard, and the grounds upon which the noble Lord proposed this measure, and especially after the speech of his right hon. Friend near him, without expressing any opinion whether it might not be right to place upon a sounder footing our diplomatic relations with Rome, and considering, also, the conflicting arguments by which the Government supported Adair, II. E. Bagshaw, J. Berkeley, hon. C. F. Clements, hon. C. S. Cowper, hon. W. F. Gladstone, rt.hon.W.E. Harcourt, G. G. Lascelles, hon. W. S. Lewis, G. C. Wilson, J. Wodehouse, E. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C. Wood, W. P. TELLERS. Tufnell, H. List of the NOES. Archdall, Capt. Bankes, G. Blackstone, W. S. Blandford, Marq. of Burrell, Sir C. M. Cabbell, B. B. Chaplin, W. J. Chichester, Lord J. L. Christy, S. Coles, H. B. Devereux, J. T. Dick, Q. Duncan, G. Du Pre, C. G. Fagan, W. Henley, J. W. their reference to our relations with Austria and the Italian Powers, but also with regard to France, to our peace with that Republic, and I may say to the peace of Europe at large. It will prove to all mankind that Austria never entertained the least design or even desire to break in upon the arrangements made by the Treaty of Vienna. When my noble Friend in the other House (Lord Palmerston), as I conceive somewhat unjustly, administered what seemed a reprimand to our ancient ally, by giving warning that we should resent any attempt against Sardinia, or against the Roman States, the answer was promptly made that nothing could be further from the wish of Austria than to aim any blow at the Sardinian monarchy; that on the contrary, she would join with us cordially in resisting all such aggressions, holding fast by the guarantee given in the Treaty of Vienna. Then, as to the Roman States, she was if possible still more bound and more resolved to resist any assault on the Holy Father from her intimate connexion with the See of Rome. But what might not have been so naturally expected from the conservative habits of Prince Metternich-though I believe he has never shown a disposition to resist any improvement, however averse to such proceedings as have of late disgraced Germany, and such as have declared strongly in favour of his prudent counsels--Lord Palmerston having warned Austria also against interposing with force to prevent the people of any State in Italy from effecting internal Reported.-Money Order Department (Post Office); Re-changes, his answer was distinctly that no gisters of Sasines (Scotland); Court of Justiciary (Scot TELLERS. Gooch, E. S. Goring, C. Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Grogan, E. Gwyn, H. Urquhart, D. Hamilton, G. A. Anstey, T. C. AUSTRIA AND ITALY. The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, he understood that his noble Friend (Lord Brougham) intended to move for a copy of the despatch dated the 11th September, 1847, containing the representations of the Austrian Government in answer to the despatch of Lord Palmerston on the subject of any interference in the affairs of Sardinia. He had to state that there was no objection to lay those or any other papers upon the table of the House, tending to elucidate that very important subject. LORD BROUGHAM:* I had expected as much from the known candour of my noble Friend. The despatch for which I move is a document of great importance, not only from the pending negotiations, in From a Report published by Ridgway. such intention existed, nor any desire to prevent any peaceable improvements in the institutions of any Italian State. The production of so important a state paper, tria, and her highly distinguished statesis not more an act of mere justice to Aus view to the existing negotiations. man, than it is a useful document with a But now it was said that France would interfere in Italy, and our joining in the mediation might prevent such a misfortune. My Lords, I say nothing against this promay possibly be wisely conceived also; I ject at all well meant it certainly is, it wish it all success. But I must profess my entire disbelief of any real intention on the part of France to commit so signal in Italy. That there are some persons, not an act of indiscretion as employing force remarkable for either knowledge or wisdom, who busy themselves with calling out for an Italian campaign, I am well aware. Such I her unemployed armies?" do not believe to be the language of General Cavaignac-he is none of the visionaries I speak of-he is a sound practical politician, and will think twice before he lets his country go to war for any theory. But others are brimful of such visions, as for example, M. Lamartine is one of the tribe. He, a famous romancer, a middling poet, a worse historian, is full of propagan dist notions-and when at the head of affairs, he scrupled not to issne a manifesto only paralleled in the records of the National Convention during the reign of terror. He proclaimed goodwill to whatever people chose to revolt against its rulers, and pursue revolutionary courses. They should, he said, be left to themselves as long as there was a prospect of their being able to work out their own emancipation; but as soon as they were failing, and the regular Government against which they had risen was overpowering their resistance why then France would show herself the friend of the oppressed, and give them her succour to break their chains. This, he said, was the "Mission" of France especially-that is, she was created, and sent upon the earth to accomplish universal revolution. Since 1792, no parallel has been furnished to this; since the famous decree of 19th November in that year, the decree that France was the auxiliary of all insurgents-the decree which plunged Europe into a twenty years' war. But they are not very many, and they are even far less important than numerous; they are visionaries, agitators, speculators in mischief, preachers of general revolt, men who can only see an abuse in each established Government, who can fancy no benefit to France greater than involving all others in the ruin that she is suffering under. These men are unceasing in their outcry against the continuance of peace, strenuous in their fanatical promulgation of propagandist doctrine, loud in their calls for violent courses, incessant in their thoughtless demands of a warlike interference with Italian affairs. "Why," said these wise politicians, "why don't you march across the Alps? Why keep troops idle and useless at Paris? What need can there be of 50,000 men in a capital where no breath of faction, no whisper of revolt ever is heard? All men know say these sage counsellors-that we have more troops than we can employ to keep a peace in no danger from any quarter. France, from the Channel to the Mediterranean is in profound repose. Since the revolution of February there has not been the faintest echo of a tumult-no rising, nor any threat of it, on the 17th of March-no -none on the 15th of May, when the mob merely turned the National Assembly neck and crop out of their Chamber -nothing in the world more-no tumult on the 22nd of June-further than the streets all flowing with blood for a day or two-nothing whatever at any time requiring the presence of troops, martial laws, or state of siege. Then, all Lyons, My Lords, I deem it my bounden duty Nantes, Bordeaux, Marseilles, Avignes, to consider for a few moments the great Nismes, Dijon-all quiet-all wrapt in question of foreign policy now calling for deep repose. Why keep any troops what- the attention of this House, of the Governever in so peaceful a country? Why not ment, and of the country; and as I shall send all into Italy to help the usurpation be readily acquitted by my noble Friends of Charles Albert, or spread democracy opposite of all factious motives, or any inover the land? And then for money- tentions hostile to them, I prefer submitwhy there is a superabundance of it-ting my views of the subject rather to them credit strong-money a drug-trade too than to the people out of doors, or even prosperous-merchants surfeited with pro- your Lordships at large. I take the case fits-a general plethora of wealth-stocks to be this: We should lay down to ourup at 110 the threes, 130 the fives-more capital than can be used-the revenue doubling every week-the debt swept off by payment of twenty shillings in the pound! Surely, argue these profound and accurate thinkers-these sage and prudent counsellors, nothing can be more absurd than for France to keep peace, of which she has no kind of need, and avoid war, which is certain glory to her name, and the sure vent for her superfluous wealth selves some fixed principles for the basis of our conduct-trace out for our course some known, intelligible, definite line of duty and of policy, instead of varying from day to day according to the aspect of events— taking up one plan to-day, another tomorrow, as fortune may wear a different face-and making ourselves the sport of blind chance, rather than the followers of a rational system, the votaries of positive duty. Now I understand the system which |